Mormons don't believe the teachings of Paul?

[Paul_G]

[65](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/65.htm’) "In many and various ways God spoke of old to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son."26 Christ, the Son of God made man, is the Father’s one, perfect and unsurpassable Word. In him he has said everything; there will be no other word than this one. St. John of the Cross, among others, commented strikingly on *Hebrews *1:1-2:

In giving us his Son, his only Word (for he possesses no other), he spoke everything to us at once in this sole Word - and he has no more to say. . . because what he spoke before to the prophets in parts, he has now spoken all at once by giving us the All Who is His Son. Any person questioning God or desiring some vision or revelation would be guilty not only of foolish behavior but also of offending him, by not fixing his eyes entirely upon Christ and by living with the desire for some other novelty.
27 There will be no further Revelation
[66](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/66.htm’) "The Christian economy, therefore, since it is the new and definitive Covenant, will never pass away; and no new public revelation is to be expected before the glorious manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ."28 Yet even if Revelation is already complete, it has not been made completely explicit; it remains for Christian faith gradually to grasp its full significance over the course of the centuries.

[67](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/67.htm’) Throughout the ages, there have been so-called “private” revelations, some of which have been recognized by the authority of the Church. They do not belong, however, to the deposit of faith. It is not their role to improve or complete Christ’s definitive Revelation, but to help live more fully by it in a certain period of history. Guided by the Magisterium of the Church, the sensus fidelium knows how to discern and welcome in these revelations whatever constitutes an authentic call of Christ or his saints to the Church.

Thank you for the quotes, I understand that there are writings and traditions from within the Church of Rome; however I do not see them as the definitive answer to the question. I see them coming from a place of authentic belief and conscience, and I believe they could have been mistaken.

I believe Hebrews 1:1-2 is an accurate statement, the Father has indeed “in these last days spoken to us by his Son” [Jesus], by the little of His words that are recorded in the New Testament and what communicated to Joseph Smith.

Paul

 

[RebeccaJ]

Thank you for the quotes, I understand that there are writings and traditions from within the Church of Rome; however I do not see them as the definitive answer to the question. I see them coming from a place of authentic belief and conscience, and I believe they could have been mistaken.

I believe Hebrews 1:1-2 is an accurate statement, the Father has indeed “in these last days spoken to us by his Son” [Jesus], by the little of His words that are recorded in the New Testament and what communicated to Joseph Smith.

Paul

No the Church is not mistaken. It is lead by Christ, the authority of the Church is Christ, as it is His Church.

The Son is the perfect Word of the Father. What more would there need to be revealed, concerning God and His Truth? To believe otherwise is to believe that Christ forgot some things, or left something out, which would be a belief that He failed.

It is those that follow Smith who are sadly in error. He has restored nothing of God.

 

[Paul_G]

No, Paul, these are mormon beliefs. If they are boorish, then consider the sources (BoM, King Follett Sermon, D&C, Pearl of Great Price, etc.

Since you have offered the possibility that they may be boorish. I will offer the reason why I believe them so. Firstly, for the apparent mocking intent of this list of items, which is not wholely accurate? Secondly, for the simplistic presentation of the issues in much the same manner the evangelical movement would describe Catholic practice and traditions.

It is NEVER inappropriate to discuss what a sect believes. If the adherents of that sect deny it, then that is called ‘hypocrisy.’

Only if they deny what they believe, and not what other say that they believe.

The creche comes from a vision of St Francis of Assisi and has OT and NT references in its setup.

I think I gave this point to you

Seeing how Zerinus, you and others who claim mormonism (I can’t write “mormonanity” like Christianity, can I?)

Nor can you write “Catholicanity”, but interestingly. as the term “Christian” was first used derisively so was the term “Mormon”

many of us find it ironic and hypocritical that a sect which claims the Catholic Church (founded by Christ) to be in “apostasy” and is founded by a man (Joseph Smith) of dubious character and intentions imitates the Catholic Church at every turn it can…

If you can’t answer WHY the Mormons do this, fine. Silence speaks volumes at times, Paul.

Sorry, I thought your question was rhetorical, Yes the crèche date to the 1200s and founded by St Francis. So why do we imitate the crèche, and that’s the word we use, by setting up displays of the nativity in selected chapels; I would say it is because that person you describe of “dubious character” Joseph Smith said that we should in the words of Paul the Apostle “If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.” The crèche fits these words, we are grateful to St. Francis for this inspiration.

What for? As if you would answer a direct question about Mormon belief?

Interesting answer, kind of clairvoyant.

The surest answer AGAINST false and heretical teaching is the reading of those false and heretical documents.

I’ve read them. It’s a shame you haven’t.

Go in peace

Robert

Ya, you’re right, I should get around to it.

Paul

 

[Paul_G]

No the Church is not mistaken. It is lead by Christ, the authority of the Church is Christ, as it is His Church.

The Son is the perfect Word of the Father. What more would there need to be revealed, concerning God and His Truth? To believe otherwise is to believe that Christ forgot some things, or left something out, which would be a belief that He failed.

It is those that follow Smith who are sadly in error. He has restored nothing of God.

Did Adam receive all knowledge, did Abraham, did Moses, did Joshua, did the temple high priests. They received and increment portion of our Father’s plan. Jesus did show us many things, but I don’t believe He gave us all things at one time, but as we approach the appointed times spoken of in scripture I believe He has given us more understanding of the things of His Father. I don’t think we will know all things until a good while after we have left this world. You are welcome to your view, but I still will as the Saviour says “And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.” (Luke 11: 9)

Paul

 

[RebeccaJ]

Did Adam receive all knowledge, did Abraham, did Moses, did Joshua, did the temple high priests. They received and increment portion of our Father’s plan. Jesus did show us many things, but I don’t believe He gave us all things at one time, but as we approach the appointed times spoken of in scripture I believe He has given us more understanding of the things of His Father. I don’t think we will know all things until a good while after we have left this world. You are welcome to your view, but I still will as the Saviour says “And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.” (Luke 11: 9)

Paul

The OT prophets prepared the way for Christ, not Joseph Smith.

Of course, the Holy Spirit guides. And of course God provides all that we need or ask of Him.

 

[Paul_G]

The OT prophets prepared the way for Christ, not…

For His incarnation

… Joseph Smith.

For His return

Of course, the Holy Spirit guides. And of course God provides all that we need or ask of Him.

Of course I can go along with that. The thing is that most of the New Testament was written by revelation received after the resurrection of our Lord, so it is not a stretch to think that it could not happen again if our Father wills it.

Paul

 

[rmcmullan]

Recently a Mormon told me that he didn’t believe everything that Paul taught. I was so floored I didn’t even ask him what, specifically.

It’s hard to repsond to this without knowing exactly which of Paul’s particular teaching he had problems with. Baptism on behalf of the dead? Preference for celibacy? Women having their heads covered and not speaking in church? If it’s that last one, the Mormons are definitely deviating from Paul’s teachings because they have had women not wearing hats speaking in General Conference.

 

[rmcmullan]

Some of the more interesting teachings of Paul:

1 Cor 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

Tim 11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

I think the Amish are the only people that adhere to this anymore.

 

[RebeccaJ]

It’s hard to repsond to this without knowing exactly which of Paul’s particular teaching he had problems with. Baptism on behalf of the dead? Preference for celibacy? Women having their heads covered and not speaking in church? If it’s that last one, the Mormons are definitely deviating from Paul’s teachings because they have had women not wearing hats speaking in General Conference.

No, he is one of those people who define their own scriptures. He says that anything that is “good” is scripture to him. Which, I understand that POV, as it is what I believed when I was an atheist.

So what parts of Paul does he not believe are scripture? I guess the parts that he doesn’t define as “good”.

Women covered their heads at mass until Vatican II. And females were not allowed to participate in the liturgy…no alter girls. I dunno RC. I don’t really have a problem with this and I am definitely more of a liberal than most mormons or Catholics. I understand why people take vows of silence, and I could easily do the same for the hour of mass. Make the silence my own, give it to God, rather than some sort of imposition on my life. Hell, I could lie prostrate on the floor during the whole mass to worship my Lord. But I realize that not all people can run silent and not all people understand the feeling of worship that I can get at mass sometimes. And I know men who feel this way as well as women.

However, the overall point this guy was making is that not everything in the Bible is scripture. That is what he does not believe. He cherry picks out of the Bible what he likes, what he defines as “good”, and says the rest are not scripture. But I understand how he got to this point. He works at figuring out what parts of the Bible are “translated correctly”.

This is not how I perceive the Bible: All of it is scripture. Sure, there are parts that I don’t understand, parts that are definitely allegorical, and parts that definitely are cultural. That is what it means to be Christian. To be forever learning more and coming to understand more, all with the goal of following Christ. All of the Bible has something to say to me.

 

[RebeccaJ]

For His incarnation

For His return

Of course I can go along with that. The thing is that most of the New Testament was written by revelation received after the resurrection of our Lord, so it is not a stretch to think that it could not happen again if our Father wills it.

Paul

There is no proof of Smith’s claims, not as a prophet, nor anything physical he produced.

And there is nothing in the NT that indicates any prophets would be needed for Christ’s return. Christ Himself told of His return, what would happen, what the signs would be. And he cautioned against false prophets.

As I have already pointed out. Jesus is the final Word. He Prophesied of his death, his resurrection and his return. And He established His Church, through His apostles.

The claims of Smith add nothing to this, more like, his followers have been sorely mislead.

 

[Paul_G]

There is no proof of Smith’s claims, not as a prophet, nor anything physical he produced.

And there is nothing in the NT that indicates any prophets would be needed for Christ’s return. Christ Himself told of His return, what would happen, what the signs would be. And he cautioned against false prophets.

As I have already pointed out. Jesus is the final Word. He Prophesied of his death, his resurrection and his return. And He established His Church, through His apostles.

The claims of Smith add nothing to this, more like, his followers have been sorely mislead.

I don’t know, Dan 2:44 shows that there is activity to take place after the fall of the Roman Empire. Since the Church at Rome was co-existent with this empire, this vision, I think, does not refer to it.

Paul

 

[rmcmullan]

Rebecca, I can sort of see his point of view. I don’t think it’s a Mormon thing though, it’s something a lot of people go through. They read things that are difficult to understand or reconcile with what they’ve been taught socially or religiously. I guess different people have different ways of dealing with that.

Myself, I keep a little folder in my head labelled “Open Issues” and file them away until they’re resolved. Personally, I’ve had a few items in there: the slaughter of Jericho and of the previous inhabitants of the promised land. Widespread polygamy in the OT. Culturally, I still don’t get idolatry or circumcision. Some of these issues have since been moved into the resolved file, but it’s not empty. Maybe there’s a better way but I think I’d rather do that than cherry pick scripture.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Rebecca, I can sort of see his point of view. I don’t think it’s a Mormon thing though, it’s something a lot of people go through. They read things that are difficult to understand or reconcile with what they’ve been taught socially or religiously. I guess different people have different ways of dealing with that.

Myself, I keep a little folder in my head labelled “Open Issues” and file them away until they’re resolved. Personally, I’ve had a few items in there: the slaughter of Jericho and of the previous inhabitants of the promised land. Widespread polygamy in the OT. Culturally, I still don’t get idolatry or circumcision. Some of these issues have since been moved into the resolved file, but it’s not empty. Maybe there’s a better way but I think I’d rather do that than cherry pick scripture.

That is true, there are stories in the Bible that are harder to understand than others. But I’m sure they are there for a reason.

I am certainly not a Bible scholar. I’m still trying to get a handle on my first go-through. It is an intense book.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I don’t know, Dan 2:44 shows that there is activity to take place after the fall of the Roman Empire. Since the Church at Rome was co-existent with this empire, this vision, I think, does not refer to it.

Paul

Christ told people while here, on this earth, that the Kingdom of God is near. The waiting time was over, as He fulfilled the prophecies of Israel to this very point, and more.

The catholic Church was and still is more than the Roman Rite. And as Christ promised, His Church still stands.

 

[Rbt_Southwell]

Since you have offered the possibility that they may be boorish. I will offer the reason why I believe them so. Firstly, for the apparent mocking intent of this list of items, which is not wholely accurate? Secondly, for the simplistic presentation of the issues in much the same manner the evangelical movement would describe Catholic practice and traditions.

Paul

Not mocking, Paul, just the facts.

Do you deny any of them? Which ones?

Do you deny any of them had currency in Mormon belief?

Which ones?

The teachings of Jesus were simple and His command to St Peter was straightforward.

Of course, in YOUR view He was wrong and the Catholic Church went into ‘apostasy.’

Such a big faux-pas from the Son of God!

As to evangelicals and other non-Cs: we all agree that mormonism is not mainstream Christianity.

And that is something which glibness will never change.

Robert