Mormons -- help me understand intelligences

[BartBurk]

The Mormon scriptures talk about “intelligences” which seem to be uncreated precursors of created human spirits. Do intelligences exist because God exists or are they completely independent of God’s existence? And do intelligences have individual personalities prior to becoming human spirits?

 

[SteveVH]

The Mormon scriptures talk about “intelligences” which seem to be uncreated precursors of created human spirits. Do intelligences exist because God exists or are they completely independent of God’s existence? And do intelligences have individual personalities prior to becoming human spirits?

Bart, from the discussion I have had, “intelligences” are co-eternal with God, which means that they existed from eternity, apart from Him, along with uncreated “matter” which God used to fashion creation as we know it. This view has many ramifications, not the least of which concerns God’s omnipotence. They do not believe that God created everything from nothing, rather He organized existing matter and used already existing “intelligences” to bring spirit bodies into existence. This notion affects many aspects of their faith, from the nature of man to the nature of God. I tried to address this in my thread entitled "Mormons: Pelase explain ‘Pre-Existence’"but the conversation dwindled pretty fast.

 

[BartBurk]

Bart, from the discussion I have had, “intelligences” are co-eternal with God, which means that they existed from eternity, apart from Him, along with uncreated “matter” which God used to fashion creation as we know it. This view has many ramifications, not the least of which concerns God’s omnipotence. They do not believe that God created everything from nothing, rather He organized existing matter and used already existing “intelligences” to bring spirit bodies into existence. This notion affects many aspects of their faith, from the nature of man to the nature of God. I tried to address this in my thread entitled "Mormons: Pelase explain ‘Pre-Existence’"but the conversation dwindled pretty fast.

If Mormons believe that intelligences can exist without God then they are teaching a very dangerous proposition. I can understand them teaching that intelligences existed co-eternally with God while dependent upon Him for their existence, but if they teach that intelligences exist without any dependence upon God they are in essence making themselves equal to God.

 

[SteveVH]

If Mormons believe that intelligences can exist without God then they are teaching a very dangerous proposition. I can understand them teaching that intelligences existed co-eternally with God while dependent upon Him for their existence, but if they teach that intelligences exist without any dependence upon God they are in essence making themselves equal to God.

If something or someone is co-eternal with God, it means that it/they had no beginning, which in turn means that it exists independently of God. They will never admit that this makes the “thing” equal to God, but there is no way around the fact that if this is true then God cannot be omnipotent because He would have no power over the existence of the things that exist apart from His creation.

Here is a quote from St. Ambrose of Milan in 389 A.D concerning this topic, at least as far as uncreated “matter” is concerned:

"If there were increated matter God would seem to lack the power of creating matter, and have borrowed for His work that which was already at hand. But if such matter were disordered, how remarkable it is that matter coeternal with God would not have been able to confer beauty and order upon itself, seeing that it did not receive its substance from a creator but possessed it timelessly itself. It is a greater thing, therefore, that the Fashioner of all things provided the material with which He worked, than it would be if He had simply put material in order. He provided the matter which enabled Him to do His fashioning; and He put that matter in order, giving it the shape which renders beautiful that which He provided." (St. Ambrose of Milan, Hexameron, post A.D 389)

 

[campeador]

In my discussions with ParkerD and other LDS members, I think Steve is right. ‘Intelligences’ have always existed, waiting for God to ‘beget’ them. My understanding is that God rewarded the smartest and most perfect intelligence with ‘firstborn’-ness which allowed Him to learn how to become a god without ever having to go through the process of receive a body and becoming exalted (which seems kind of unfair to this ‘kinda dumb and far from perfect’ intelligence).

 

[ParkerD]

The Mormon scriptures talk about “intelligences” which seem to be uncreated precursors of created human spirits. Do intelligences exist because God exists or are they completely independent of God’s existence? And do intelligences have individual personalities prior to becoming human spirits?

BartBurk,

A few items of note about this subject, from my perspective as I think about what Abraham learned about this and what Joseph Smith learned also, are as follows:

Abraham learned about this after he had prepared himself for more knowledge by being completely true to his covenants and by showing God that he desired more knowledge and that he could be trusted to act in a righteous way when given more knowledge. Otherwise, there is deliberately a “veil” placed upon our “spirit memory” by God such that even though we lived before we came to this earth, we have only knowledge of that in tiny glimpses from the scriptures and in other glimpses by gaining personal revelation or by getting as a Latter-day Saint youth a “patriarchal blessing” that talks about the pre-mortal life in some cases (such as my own when I was fifteen, as an example).

We don’t know enough to describe an “intelligence”, and only are given the glimpse that “they have no beginning” and “they shall have no end,” and that Christ, Jehovah, “[is] more intelligent than they all” and that He “rules in the heavens above, and in the earth beneath, in all wisdom and prudence, over all the intelligences thine eyes have seen from the beginning;” (this was given to Abraham in vision).

We can discern from the case of Satan that an intelligence, after being brought forth into the condition of being a spirit (an “angel” as used in some scriptural passages), could be a spirit and could later rebel against the light and knowledge they had received, so as far as a “personality”, it appears that such would apply more to a spirit than to an “intelligence”, but yet God had a knowledge of the potential of each “intelligence” since He knows all things and has no time barrier for His knowledge.

Another point I think is important is that the only difference it would seem to make to a person who gains this knowledge about there having been a pre-mortal life, is a positive difference in their life, (but perhaps not for some people–perhaps a person enjoys the thought that God created them from nothing with the emphasis on a “fresh start” from nothing).

I personally enjoy the joyful adulation of knowing that when “all the sons of God shouted for joy” as the book of Job exclaims, some of us now living had the opportunity to be there and to rejoice in having it explained that there was going to be an end time during the history of the world, when we would be able to come to earth and help out with God’s plan and see the continuing unfolding of Christ’s perfect work and glory.

Peace to you and all.

 

[JeanMichel]

Bart, from the discussion I have had, “intelligences” are co-eternal with God, which means that they existed from eternity, apart from Him, along with uncreated “matter” which God used to fashion creation as we know it. This view has many ramifications, not the least of which concerns God’s omnipotence. They do not believe that God created everything from nothing, rather He organized existing matter and used already existing “intelligences” to bring spirit bodies into existence. This notion affects many aspects of their faith, from the nature of man to the nature of God. I tried to address this in my thread entitled "Mormons: Pelase explain ‘Pre-Existence’"but the conversation dwindled pretty fast.

I have never heard this explanation; do you have a Mormon reference for such a position? The best I have ever received is they don’t know anything other than they existed.

 

[flyonthewall]

We don’t know much about “intelligences” as not much has been revealed.
This is from the official source:

Intelligence, Intelligences
See also Light, Light of Christ; Spirit; Truth.
Intelligence has several meanings, three of which are: (1) It is the light of truth which gives life and light to all things in the universe. It has always existed. (2) The word intelligences may also refer to spirit children of God. (3) The scriptures also may speak of intelligence as referring to the spirit element that existed before we were begotten as spirit children.

Intelligence cleaveth unto intelligence, D&C 88:40
Intelligence was not created or made, D&C 93:29
All intelligence is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, D&C 93:30
The glory of God is intelligence, D&C 93:36–37
Intelligence acquired in this life rises with us in the resurrection, D&C 130:18–19
The Lord rules over all the intelligences, Abr. 3:21
The Lord showed Abraham the intelligences that were organized before the world was, Abr. 3:22

Outside of this, is pure speculation.
A lot of times, non-LDS will draw their own conclusions and assign them to us as our belief.

 

[BartBurk]

We don’t know much about “intelligences” as not much has been revealed.
This is from the official source:

Outside of this, is pure speculation.
A lot of times, non-LDS will draw their own conclusions and assign them to us as our belief.

Was God simply one intelligence or the source of all intelligences as the Eternal God?

 

[tortdog]

I’d agree it’s mainly speculation. But I also think that logic mandates that only things that are eternal can live forever. Otherwise, by definition it’s not eternal. Finite things must have an end.

I think the creation is more about organization than God creating things out of something that did not exist. All of this goes far beyond the limited teachings of the Bible on the matter, and even beyond the more extensive teachings found in modern-day revelation received by the LDS Church. In the end, the reason our knowledge is limited is likely due to the fact that knowledge of these issues is not a key to our salvation. It’s interesting to debate and discuss, but in the end does not draw us closer to Christ.

 

[BartBurk]

I’d agree it’s mainly speculation. But I also think that logic mandates that only things that are eternal can live forever. Otherwise, by definition it’s not eternal. Finite things must have an end.

I think the creation is more about organization than God creating things out of something that did not exist. All of this goes far beyond the limited teachings of the Bible on the matter, and even beyond the more extensive teachings found in modern-day revelation received by the LDS Church. In the end, the reason our knowledge is limited is likely due to the fact that knowledge of these issues is not a key to our salvation. It’s interesting to debate and discuss, but in the end does not draw us closer to Christ.

If it doesn’t draw us closer to Christ, why does the LDS God bring it up in his scriptures? I would think it must be somehow important for our salvation if God thought he needed to comment about it. Beyond that this teaching seems to contradict the knowledge the Bible gives us about God being the ultimate source of creation.

If the LDS teach that God is the source of intelligences as part of his eternal Being I could somehow reconcile it with a Biblical understanding of God. But if God is just one of many intelligences who happened to progress faster than the rest of us … I can’t say that would square with what the Bible teaches.

 

[JeanMichel]

We don’t know much about “intelligences” as not much has been revealed.
This is from the official source:

Outside of this, is pure speculation.
A lot of times, non-LDS will draw their own conclusions and assign them to us as our belief.

From what I read above, it seems that God placed intelligences in a specific area; he controls them and creates them. It almost seems to be that this is a “thought” rather than a doctrine. There does not seem enough information to call it a doctrine; would you agree?

At best this may be an interesting topic for speculation, but very little else.

 

[BartBurk]

From what I read above, it seems that God placed intelligences in a specific area; he controls them and creates them. It almost seems to be that this is a “thought” rather than a doctrine. There does not seem enough information to call it a doctrine; would you agree?

At best this may be an interesting topic for speculation, but very little else.

It is clear that in LDS thought God did not create intelligences just as God did not create His Son. The only question I would like answered is whether or not LDS believe intelligences are totally independent of God or dependent upon Him. I could imagine that intelligences existed eternally with God outside of time and space simply as one aspect of God’s Being without being begotten of God as the Son was.

 

[SteveVH]

I have never heard this explanation; do you have a Mormon reference for such a position? The best I have ever received is they don’t know anything other than they existed.

The information I have given is based upon my conversations with Mormon posters on this forum, as I stated. I am open to correction by any Mormon poster who wishes to do so, but I believe my basis (the belief intelligences as well as matter are co-eternal with God) is correct.

 

[flyonthewall]

Was God simply one intelligence or the source of all intelligences as the Eternal God?

This is from our scriptures:

21I dwell in the midst of them all; I now, therefore, have come down unto thee to declare unto thee the works which my hands have made, wherein my wisdom excelleth them all, for I rule in the heavens above, and in the earth beneath, in all wisdom and prudence, over all the intelligences thine eyes have seen from the beginning; I came down in the beginning in the midst of all the intelligences thou hast seen.

This states that God rules over all the intelligences that were shown to Abraham.

 

[flyonthewall]

From what I read above, it seems that God placed intelligences in a specific area; he controls them and creates them. It almost seems to be that this is a “thought” rather than a doctrine. There does not seem enough information to call it a doctrine; would you agree?

At best this may be an interesting topic for speculation, but very little else.

I would say it is an incomplete teaching. It is a topic that was broached, but not explained in detail. Very little is known, so there is more speculation than actual knowledge.

 

[SteveVH]

This states that God rules over all the intelligences that were shown to Abraham.

I think the question, however, is not whether or not God ruels over intelligences, but rather do these intelligences find their origin apart from God? Do they exist independantly of God “in the beginning”?

 

[flyonthewall]

I think the question, however, is not whether or not God ruels over intelligences, but rather do these intelligences find their origin apart from God? Do they exist independantly of God “in the beginning”?

The question asks for an answer that has not been given. The question, the way it is framed, is also contradictory.
Is “in the beginning” a point of reference? As you know, we state that intelligences have no beginning or end and are co-eternal with God, so are you asking for an answer as of a point in time? like when the earth was created? The earth was created “in the beginning”, so I suppose that is a reasonable enough conclusion to draw for the time frame in which the question is asked. Otherwise, “in the begining” of something that has no beginning, makes no sense.
You ask for the origin of something that has no origin to our knowledge. I suppose you could call it a mystery.

Define the beginning of God, and perhaps you may find the answer.

 

[SteveVH]

The question asks for an answer that has not been given. The question, the way it is framed, is also contradictory.
Is “in the beginning” a point of reference? As you know, we state that intelligences have no beginning or end and are co-eternal with God, so are you asking for an answer as of a point in time? like when the earth was created? The earth was created “in the beginning”, so I suppose that is a reasonable enough conclusion to draw for the time frame in which the question is asked. Otherwise, “in the begining” of something that has no beginning, makes no sense.
You ask for the origin of something that has no origin to our knowledge. I suppose you could call it a mystery.

Define the beginning of God, and perhaps you may find the answer.

Yes, Fly, I understand the difference between eternity and something that has a beginning. It is simply the same word usage as John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning."

In any event, you have answered the question quite adequately:

As you know, we state that intelligences have no beginning or end and are co-eternal with God.

I did know that but I was questioned a few posts back as to the source of my information that this was, in fact, what you believe. Understanding that you do not claim to know or that you have received full revelation on the subject, there is a curiosity among non-Mormons as to just how the LDS Church arrived at the conclusion it holds today.

You are aware that we believe that everything that exists apart from God has been created by God from nothing; that God is the uncaused cause, from which all else derives its existence. We arrive at this through both Scripture and reason. If you would not mind, could you explain how the Mormon position is reached?

Thanks.

 

[flyonthewall]

Yes, Fly, I understand the difference between eternity and something that has a beginning. It is simply the same word usage as John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning."

In any event, you have answered the question quite adequately:

I did know that but I was questioned a few posts back as to the source of my information that this was, in fact, what you believe. Understanding that you do not claim to know or that you have received full revelation on the subject, there is a curiosity among non-Mormons as to just how the LDS Church arrived at the conclusion it holds today.

You are aware that we believe that everything that exists apart from God has been created by God from nothing; that God is the uncaused cause, from which all else derives its existence. We arrive at thIis through both Scripture and reason. If you would not mind, could you explain how the Mormon position is reached?

Thanks.

It was reached by revelation from God.