Mormons -- help me understand intelligences

[DeMarcus_Era]

It was reached by revelation from God.

I think in Lectures of Faith Joseph Smith noted that bara in Hebrew doesn’t mean creation from nothing, which prompted him to seek revelation.

The revelation on eternal intelligences was also prompted, in this case by Smith pondering the problem of evil.

 

[DeMarcus_Era]

You are aware that we believe that everything that exists apart from God has been created by God from nothing; that God is the uncaused cause, from which all else derives its existence. We arrive at this through both Scripture and reason.
Thanks.

This fusion of the Aristotelian unmoved mover with Christianity makes Mormons uneasy.

 

[BartBurk]

This fusion of the Aristotelian unmoved mover with Christianity makes Mormons uneasy.

It makes me uneasy to believe God isn’t the source of our creation. As soon as we declare ourselves independent from God we set ourselves up as our own gods. We can’t be sure that God has it right if the only thing he has is more power than us because he started up a little more quickly. Why can’t we just toss him over when we advance far enough?

 

[JeanMichel]

I would say it is an incomplete teaching. It is a topic that was broached, but not explained in detail. Very little is known, so there is more speculation than actual knowledge.

Would say that Mormons believe that man is independent from God? From the statements above it seems clear that he is not, but others are saying that man is independent; which is it?

 

[flyonthewall]

Would say that Mormons believe that man is independent from God? From the statements above it seems clear that he is not, but others are saying that man is independent; which is it?

Man is not independent of God. God created man.

 

[BartBurk]

Man is not independent of God. God created man.

God organized intelligences to become man. But who’s to say we won’t grow beyond Him since He is not the ultimate source of our existence. Or is He? That’s the question I am not getting an answer to.

 

[ParkerD]

God organized intelligences to become man. But who’s to say we won’t grow beyond Him since He is not the ultimate source of our existence. Or is He? That’s the question I am not getting an answer to.

BartBurk,

Here’s an attempt to answer your question:

When the Savior said “God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham,” then He didn’t describe the process but He did present a principle.

He also presented a principle when He gave His intercessory prayer. The universe is held together by truth, and upheld by truth, and one who does not comprehend the principle that truth governs the universe could think that there is such a thing as to “grow beyond Him” but that means the person does not comprehend how the universe is held together by the governing principle of universal truth, which God both knows and ordains.

Satan rebels against the whole idea of becoming “one” with God, as we all know. He thought that by his rebellion he could “be like the most High.” (Isaiah 14:14) That is a completely erroneous idea which he had and which he presented to the fallen angels as they also rebelled along with him. (Revelation 12:7, 9)

“All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence.” These words were revealed to the Prophet Joseph Smith (D & C 93:30)

“And no man receiveth a fulness unless he keepeth his commandments. He that keepeth his commandments receiveth truth and light, until he is glorified in truth and knoweth all things.” (93:27, 28)

When one becomes one with God in eternity and knows all things through being “glorified in truth”, then there is nothing more to know and there is no possibility of “growing beyond” all truth, nor of having even the tiniest bit of disagreement with God because that is what being “one” with Him means.

To know all truth means to be able to act in complete harmony and in total agreement with God, who is the Supreme Ruler of the universe.

 

[BartBurk]

BartBurk,

Here’s an attempt to answer your question:

When the Savior said “God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham,” then He didn’t describe the process but He did present a principle.

He also presented a principle when He gave His intercessory prayer. The universe is held together by truth, and upheld by truth, and one who does not comprehend the principle that truth governs the universe could think that there is such a thing as to “grow beyond Him” but that means the person does not comprehend how the universe is held together by the governing principle of universal truth, which God both knows and ordains.

Satan rebels against the whole idea of becoming “one” with God, as we all know. He thought that by his rebellion he could “be like the most High.” (Isaiah 14:14) That is a completely erroneous idea which he had and which he presented to the fallen angels as they also rebelled along with him. (Revelation 12:7, 9)

“All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence.” These words were revealed to the Prophet Joseph Smith (D & C 93:30)

“And no man receiveth a fulness unless he keepeth his commandments. He that keepeth his commandments receiveth truth and light, until he is glorified in truth and knoweth all things.” (93:27, 28)

When one becomes one with God in eternity and knows all things through being “glorified in truth”, then there is nothing more to know and there is no possibility of “growing beyond” all truth, nor of having even the tiniest bit of disagreement with God because that is what being “one” with Him means.

To know all truth means to be able to act in complete harmony and in total agreement with God, who is the Supreme Ruler of the universe.

So did God only become the Supreme Ruler of the universe through learning all truth or did all truth come from Him to begin with?

 

[ParkerD]

So did God only become the Supreme Ruler of the universe through learning all truth or did all truth come from Him to begin with?

BartBurk,

Since the Savior said “I am the way, the truth, and the life,” then it is an imperative for us to understand that He is all Truth. So also is the Father, since They are One. The Savior also, as a child, “increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.” (Luke 2:52)

It is evident that the Savior increased in wisdom through communing with His Father and through His perfect comprehension of the world around Him including the people around Him. He “needeth not that any man should teach Him.”

Since the Son was like His Father in all things, it is evident to me that the Father did not need to “learn all truth”, and is the Originator of all truth because all truth is centered in Him.

 

[flyonthewall]

God organized intelligences to become man. But who’s to say we won’t grow beyond Him since He is not the ultimate source of our existence. Or is He? That’s the question I am not getting an answer to.

Simply put, God will always be our God. We do not teach that we will ever surpass Him, but we may, as He has promised, become one with Him. But even being one with Him, He will always be our God.

 

[BartBurk]

BartBurk,

Since the Savior said “I am the way, the truth, and the life,” then it is an imperative for us to understand that He is all Truth. So also is the Father, since They are One. The Savior also, as a child, “increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.” (Luke 2:52)

It is evident that the Savior increased in wisdom through communing with His Father and through His perfect comprehension of the world around Him including the people around Him. He “needeth not that any man should teach Him.”

Since the Son was like His Father in all things, it is evident to me that the Father did not need to “learn all truth”, and is the Originator of all truth because all truth is centered in Him.

I guess Mormons must not believe that God the Father was once a man who progressed to become a God then.

 

[ParkerD]

I guess Mormons must not believe that God the Father was once a man who progressed to become a God then.

BartBurk,

I think you have made a correct statement, because of the use of the word “progressed” and because the word “man” is unqualified with no context.

 

[JeanMichel]

BartBurk,

I think you have made a correct statement, because of the use of the word “progressed” and because the word “man” is unqualified with no context.

To my understanding Parker, after prolonged discussions with Mormons, I have concluded that this oft repeated statement that God was a man (which is what Catholics believe about Jesus) is not a doctrine of Mormonism. However, it does seem to be or have been a belief of Mormons over time. The more correct understanding for Mormons is that God was always God even when he was a man. Would you agree with that or have I erred in my understanding of your religion?

 

[ParkerD]

To my understanding Parker, after prolonged discussions with Mormons, I have concluded that this oft repeated statement that God was a man (which is what Catholics believe about Jesus) is not a doctrine of Mormonism. However, it does seem to be or have been a belief of Mormons over time. The more correct understanding for Mormons is that God was always God even when he was a man. Would you agree with that or have I erred in my understanding of your religion?

JeanMichel,

I agree with that last statement based on reading the King Follett Sermon and also the Lectures on Faith.

Thanks, as always, for the insights and careful study you bring to this forum.

 

[BartBurk]

BartBurk,

I think you have made a correct statement, because of the use of the word “progressed” and because the word “man” is unqualified with no context.

Then do Mormons not believe that God the Father had a Father and that we won’t become Gods of our own planets someday?

 

[ParkerD]

Then do Mormons not believe that God the Father had a Father and that we won’t become Gods of our own planets someday?

Bart Burk,

I think the statement that Publisher made on the other thread is pretty accurate in that Orson Pratt was quite prone to “speculating” and that has stopped and it is acknowledged that Latter-day Saints don’t have definitive doctrinal insights that answer these two questions. I think that the words of the Savior, “Enter thou into the joy of thy Lord”, are completely true and completely possible, and that having such joy means being like Him which means becoming one with Him and with the Father.

I also believe that because both Heavenly Father and the Savior are omnipotent and full of love for each of us, They provide exactly the knowledge that we need for our own progress in this life, and do not provide more knowledge through inspiration or through the scriptures than would be for our good. They also allow for “stumbling blocks” to happen in this world in order to test our “faith” and the fervency of our desires to truly follow Them and not follow our own will or someone else’s influence.

I think those who gain “all that the Father hath” will be able to help create worlds, and it will be through Jesus Christ that they are able to do that.

As far as the other question, I think if we needed to know the answer to that then that question would have been answered during the course of human history by documented revelation, but it hasn’t and we don’t need to know the answer to that question, nor does it seem to be beneficial for us to speculate about it’s answer but seems rather to be a detriment to what we should be focusing on in this life, so it is a “stumbling block” kind of question as far as I’m concerned, because it would detract from a person’s introspective strength of their faith in God’s omnipotence and omniscience.

 

[BartBurk]

Bart Burk,

I think the statement that Publisher made on the other thread is pretty accurate in that Orson Pratt was quite prone to “speculating” and that has stopped and it is acknowledged that Latter-day Saints don’t have definitive doctrinal insights that answer these two questions. I think that the words of the Savior, “Enter thou into the joy of thy Lord”, are completely true and completely possible, and that having such joy means being like Him which means becoming one with Him and with the Father.

I also believe that because both Heavenly Father and the Savior are omnipotent and full of love for each of us, They provide exactly the knowledge that we need for our own progress in this life, and do not provide more knowledge through inspiration or through the scriptures than would be for our good. They also allow for “stumbling blocks” to happen in this world in order to test our “faith” and the fervency of our desires to truly follow Them and not follow our own will or someone else’s influence.

I think those who gain “all that the Father hath” will be able to help create worlds, and it will be through Jesus Christ that they are able to do that.

As far as the other question, I think if we needed to know the answer to that then that question would have been answered during the course of human history by documented revelation, but it hasn’t and we don’t need to know the answer to that question, nor does it seem to be beneficial for us to speculate about it’s answer but seems rather to be a detriment to what we should be focusing on in this life, so it is a “stumbling block” kind of question as far as I’m concerned, because it would detract from a person’s introspective strength of their faith in God’s omnipotence and omniscience.

I think the main stumbling block with a lot of Mormon teachings is that they so contradict not only Biblical teaching, but the teachings of Mormon scriptures.

 

[ParkerD]

I think the main stumbling block with a lot of Mormon teachings is that they so contradict not only Biblical teaching, but the teachings of Mormon scriptures.

BartBurk,

As far as “contradictions” within scriptures or between scriptures and teachings, it is evident from the Bible that God is deliberate in allowing there to be what will appear to be “contradictions” and “stones of stumbling” and “rocks of offense” and situations where “seeing, they see not” and “hearing, they hear not” so that the key relationships between God and humankind and how close those relationships can become, including having sure knowledge, are preserved while also allowing absolute free will choice by allowing for the seeming contradictions.

Personally, I think any seeming contradiction is readily explainable, but the key relationship and involvement of the Holy Ghost, just as Peter and Paul taught, will still need to be involved, so that the words carry truth that is deeper than just on the surface. That’s why the scriptures become the standard for having the involvement of the Holy Ghost, and why sometimes the more that is said above and beyond the scriptures, the more contradictory a subject may seem.