Mormons: Henotheists or Polytheists?

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I’ve gotten into a few arguments with LDS as to whether they are polytheist or henotheist (though they almost all shy away from both terms in order to keep their mainstream appearance).

Having once been a practicing Latter-day Saint, I say the LDS are henotheist (they believe in the existence of many gods yet pay worship to only one) and this one deity to whom they pay homage is their “Heavenly Father” a.k.a. Elohim.

For those who don’t know, the LDS are non-trinitarian, yet unlike other non-trinitarian groups such as the Jehovah’s Witnesses they believe Jesus is indeed god, however a different god than the father of all our souls (Heavenly Father).

I’ve had quite a few LDS insist that members of the LDS church worship Jesus as well as God the Father, yet I can’t think of a single instance where Jesus was truly worshiped in the LDS church.

Can any LDS on these boards provide for me an LDS prayer (or an instance of Latter-day Saints praying) that was directed to Jesus and not to his father? (Closing prayers in Jesus’ name does not count as praying to Jesus).

Thanks
 
Henotheism is a form of polytheism, so the point Mormons try to make is, IMHO, moot.
 
Given their view of Jesus and the Holy Spirit as gods who intervene in human affairs, they are polytheists.

A better example of henotheism would be the Hebrews of the classical period. In henotheism, one god is all. Other gods have no dominion. The Mormon belief that the Trinity is three gods, each with roles to play is flat-out polytheism.
 
Given their view of Jesus and the Holy Spirit as gods who intervene in human affairs, they are polytheists.

A better example of henotheism would be the Hebrews of the classical period. In henotheism, one god is all. Other gods have no dominion. The Mormon belief that the Trinity is three gods, each with roles to play is flat-out polytheism.
Ah! So my understanding of henotheism was incorrect.

Thank you.
 
So would this actually mean that the LDS are both polytheist and henotheist (in different senses)?

In one sense (with respect to the “Godhead”) they are polytheist, as all three members serve a purpose in this existence and so are due at the very least respect, while in another sense (with respect to the “gods without number of other worlds” of which early LDS leaders spoke) they are henotheist, as the LDS pay absolutely no homage to, nor do they recognize these gods.

Would you concur?
 
Henotheism is a belief system that acknowledges that many gods may exist, but which only acknowledges one god for its own purposes. That excludes Mormons by any reasonable definition since they view the Father, Jesus and the Holy Ghost as three separate exalted beings (“Gods”).
 
I’ve gotten into a few arguments with LDS as to whether they are polytheist or henotheist (though they almost all shy away from both terms in order to keep their mainstream appearance).

Having once been a practicing Latter-day Saint, I say the LDS are henotheist (they believe in the existence of many gods yet pay worship to only one) and this one deity to whom they pay homage is their “Heavenly Father” a.k.a. Elohim.

For those who don’t know, the LDS are non-trinitarian, yet unlike other non-trinitarian groups such as the Jehovah’s Witnesses they believe Jesus is indeed god, however a different god than the father of all our souls (Heavenly Father).

I’ve had quite a few LDS insist that members of the LDS church worship Jesus as well as God the Father, yet I can’t think of a single instance where Jesus was truly worshiped in the LDS church.

Can any LDS on these boards provide for me an LDS prayer (or an instance of Latter-day Saints praying) that was directed to Jesus and not to his father? (Closing prayers in Jesus’ name does not count as praying to Jesus).

Thanks
Polytheist, they worship more than one God. All that you have to do is go to the LDS website (lds.org) and type in ‘worship Christ’ in the search engine. You’ll see many hits.
 
I would depart slightly from the above. From what I have seen and heard, Mormons WORSHIP only one God ~ their so-called “Heavenly Father” ~ which seems to equate to the traditional Christian God the Father ~ Mormns neither pray to nor worship Jesus in any way that I have seen or heard and Jesus seems to be, despite their denials, somewhat of a subordinate figure compared to “Heavenly Father”. This sets Mormons decidedly APART from other Christians.

While Mormons acknowledge Jesus and the Holy Spirit as God-like personages (this always seemed a little murky to me when explained) who are “one in purpose” with “Heavenly Father”, they only pray to “Heavenly Father”. They may acknowledge the sacrifice of their “brother” Jesus Christ, but they neither pray to, nor worship Jesus. He appears to be simply an intermediary to “Heavenly Father”. In Mormon practice, Jesus is a vehicle to Heavenly Father and prayers are said in the name of Jesus, but Jesus is neither prayed to directly nor worshiped…

In the finally analysis, Mormons acknowledge 3 separate, even if “one in purpose” Gods. They’re Polytheists. Many would then conclude that they are no longer Christian, for that as well as diverse other reasons. That’s not a subject of this thread, but the nature of the Mormon Godhead has many repercussions, one of which is that they are polytheists. No Mormon in my experience will ever acknowledge this fact.
 
I would depart slightly from the above. From what I have seen and heard, Mormons WORSHIP only one God ~ their so-called “Heavenly Father” ~ which seems to equate to the traditional Christian God the Father ~ Mormns neither pray to nor worship Jesus in any way that I have seen or heard and Jesus seems to be, despite their denials, somewhat of a subordinate figure compared to “Heavenly Father”. This sets Mormons decidedly APART from other Christians.

While Mormons acknowledge Jesus and the Holy Spirit as God-like personages (this always seemed a little murky to me when explained) who are “one in purpose” with “Heavenly Father”, they only pray to “Heavenly Father”. They may acknowledge the sacrifice of their “brother” Jesus Christ, but they neither pray to, nor worship Jesus. He appears to be simply an intermediary to “Heavenly Father”. In Mormon practice, Jesus is a vehicle to Heavenly Father and prayers are said in the name of Jesus, but Jesus is neither prayed to directly nor worshiped…

In the finally analysis, Mormons acknowledge 3 separate, even if “one in purpose” Gods. They’re Polytheists. Many would then conclude that they are no longer Christian, for that as well as diverse other reasons. That’s not a subject of this thread, but the nature of the Mormon Godhead has many repercussions, one of which is that they are polytheists. No Mormon in my experience will ever acknowledge this fact.
This was exactly my point.

Though the LDS church may say they worship Jesus, my experience of the faith was that only Heavenly Father was worshiped (evident by there being no prayers to Jesus, only through Jesus, however addressed to Heavenly Father).

Now I admit that prayer is not the only way to worship someone, however it is the most obvious, most universal way to worship a deity, so it raises the question “Why don’t the LDS pray to Jesus?”

Either way, the question (it seems) is rather moot now as my understanding of the term henotheist was grossly erroneous.
 
I’ve gotten into a few arguments with LDS as to whether they are polytheist or henotheist (though they almost all shy away from both terms in order to keep their mainstream appearance).

Having once been a practicing Latter-day Saint, I say the LDS are henotheist (they believe in the existence of many gods yet pay worship to only one) and this one deity to whom they pay homage is their “Heavenly Father” a.k.a. Elohim.
They are neither. The LDS theology of God is merely are restoration of the true and original theology of Christianity before the Apostasy corrupted it into its present form. I thought you said you were acquainted with Christian history? You can’t be too well informed if you are not aware of that. See the following two articles on my Blog:

zerinus.blogspot.com/2007/07/deification-of-man-and-plurality-of.html
zerinus.blogspot.com/2007/07/more-on-deification-in-early.html
I’ve had quite a few LDS insist that members of the LDS church worship Jesus as well as God the Father, yet I can’t think of a single instance where Jesus was truly worshiped in the LDS church.
Can any LDS on these boards provide for me an LDS prayer (or an instance of Latter-day Saints praying) that was directed to Jesus and not to his father? (Closing prayers in Jesus’ name does not count as praying to Jesus).
You are confusing prayer with worship. Can you tell me where in the Bible Jesus said that we should pray to Him rather than to the Father?

By the way, I have replied to your posts in two other threads.I didn’t want you to miss them.

zerinus
 
They are neither. The LDS theology of God is merely are restoration of the true and original theology of Christianity before the Apostasy corrupted it into its present form. I thought you said you were acquainted with Christian history? You can’t be too well informed if you are not aware of that. See the following two articles on my Blog:

zerinus.blogspot.com/2007/07/deification-of-man-and-plurality-of.html
zerinus.blogspot.com/2007/07/more-on-deification-in-early.html

You are confusing prayer with worship. Can you tell me where in the Bible Jesus said that we should pray to Him rather than to the Father?

By the way, I have replied to your posts in two other threads.I didn’t want you to miss them.

zerinus
What do you mean Mormonism is neither polytheistic or henotheistic? Your answer is really a non answer at all. Mormonism is polytheistic: it prescribes worship to more than one god. That is the definition of polytheistic.

I suppose you could make an argument that Mormonism is ultimately atheistic in that it doesn’t posit the existence of a real deity at all (a being qualitatively different from us), but rather simply humans at different stages of development. Somehow I doubt you’d see that as a palatable alternative.
 
They are neither. The LDS theology of God is merely are restoration of the true and original theology of Christianity before the Apostasy corrupted it into its present form. I thought you said you were acquainted with Christian history? You can’t be too well informed if you are not aware of that. See the following two articles on my Blog:

zerinus.blogspot.com/2007/07/deification-of-man-and-plurality-of.html
zerinus.blogspot.com/2007/07/more-on-deification-in-early.html

You are confusing prayer with worship. Can you tell me where in the Bible Jesus said that we should pray to Him rather than to the Father?

By the way, I have replied to your posts in two other threads.I didn’t want you to miss them.

zerinus
Your first point about Christian history and LDS history is a non-sequitor. You provide no evidence to show that the two are related, so I graciously default to my original position that the LDS church is in no way shape or form related to the primitive Christian church.

As far as worship VS prayer is concerned, notice that I admitted that prayer is ONLY ONE FORM of worship, HOWEVER the most obvious of worship, which then raises the question as to why the LDS don’t directly pray to Jesus.

If Jesus is considered a god, yea even the God with whom Michael went down to Earth and “formed matter” (ref: Endowment), then certainly he deserves prayers to his name, does he not?
 
Your first point about Christian history and LDS history is a non-sequitor. You provide no evidence to show that the two are related, so I graciously default to my original position that the LDS church is in no way shape or form related to the primitive Christian church.
In those two articles I provided documentary evidence that the LDS doctrine of Deity (i.e. deification of man and plurality of gods) conforms to the historical Christian doctrine.
As far as worship VS prayer is concerned, notice that I admitted that prayer is ONLY ONE FORM of worship, HOWEVER the most obvious of worship, which then raises the question as to why the LDS don’t directly pray to Jesus.
If Jesus is considered a god, yea even the God with whom Michael went down to Earth and “formed matter” (ref: Endowment), then certainly he deserves prayers to his name, does he not?
There is nothing in LDS doctrine that says we can’t pray to Jesus. There are several examples of it in LDS scripture that says we can or should. Here are some:

2 Nephi 25:

29 And now behold, I say unto you that the right way is to believe in Christ, and deny him not; and Christ is the Holy One of Israel; wherefore ye must bow down before him, and worship him with all your might, mind, and strength, and your whole soul; and if ye do this ye shall in nowise be cast out.

3 Nephi 19:

18 And behold, they began to pray; and they did pray unto Jesus, calling him their Lord and their God.

D&C 29:

1 Listen to the voice of Jesus Christ, your Redeemer, the Great I AM, whose arm of mercy hath atoned for your sins;

2 Who will gather his people even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, even as many as will hearken to my voice and humble themselves before me, and call upon me in mighty prayer.

Interestingly, there are no examples in the Bible of anyone praying to Jesus, or of any verse saying we should! However, we do not address our formal prayers (i.e. prayers said in Church) to Jesus, but to the Father, because that is how He has commanded us to pray:

Luke 11:

2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.

What objections do you have that we should pray as Jesus commanded us to do? I do not understand.

zerinus
 
When was the last time the “Our Father” prayer as referenced above was prayed as part of a Mormon service you attended? :rolleyes:
 
In those two articles I provided documentary evidence that the LDS doctrine of Deity (i.e. deification of man and plurality of gods) conforms to the historical Christian doctrine.
No, you provided your interpretation of scripture. No school of Christian thought, or any Christian sect, at any time in history, shares your interpretation.

I thought you said you were acquainted with Christian history?

Which year did that “apostacy” start"? Historical proof?

I too vote for polytheism. While YHWH, Christ and the Holy Spirit are “united in purpose…”, they are separate beings.
 
No, you provided your interpretation of scripture. No school of Christian thought, or any Christian sect, at any time in history, shares your interpretation.

I thought you said you were acquainted with Christian history?

Which year did that “apostacy” start"? Historical proof?

I too vote for polytheism. While YHWH, Christ and the Holy Spirit are “united in purpose…”, they are separate beings.
In this sort of discussion with a Mormon, you will usually encounter
  • Circular Reasoning
  • An explanation that the Apostasy occurred sometime after the death of the last Apostle
  • There are no records of these events, no historical evidence because all such evidence was destroyed by the “Apostates”
Good luck!
 
No, you provided your interpretation of scripture. No school of Christian thought, or any Christian sect, at any time in history, shares your interpretation.
Then you couldn’t have read them; or maybe you can’t read.

zerinus
 
I wrote this little essay to give my perspective on this perennial topic.

Monotheism vs Polytheism

Many Christians, dismayed by the amount of mental effort required to make careful arguments, attack the LDS doctrine of God via “labeling.” For most people, the label “monotheism” is acceptable, but labels like “polytheism” and “henotheism” smack of the old pagan pantheons. It’s the same in every political campaign–if one candidate can get some negative-sounding label (e.g., “anti-American,” “tax-and-spend liberal,” “champion of the rich,” or whatever) to stick to his opponent in the minds of a significant number of voters, he can get a big bump at the polls. A negative label is the ultimate “silver bullet.”

The truth is usually more complicated, however, even if mentally lazy people find this fact of life inconvenient. In this case, the Mormon doctrine of God doesn’t fit neatly into any of these categories. Yes, we speak of multiple “Gods” (see Abraham 3-4), which sounds like polytheism. Yes, we sometimes say that the Father is “our God,” as opposed to other exalted Beings, who don’t have anything directly to do with us, and this sounds like “henotheism” (i.e., acknowledgement of the existence of a plurality of Gods, but worshiping only one.) But what people who get worked up about this sort of thing do not understand is the senses in which the Mormon doctrine of God is more like “monotheism.”

God in the Singular and Plural
Essentially all Christians believe that God is in one sense “singular,” and in another sense “plural.” The Bible says there is “one God” (e.g., Deut. 6:4; Eph. 4:6; 1 Tim. 2:5; 1 Cor. 8:6), and yet it calls three different persons, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, “God” (Eph. 4:6; John 1:1; John 20:28; Acts 5:3-4). Mainstream Christians believe that “God” is
one, singular, completely simple and unchangeable spiritual substance, [so] he must be declared to be in reality and in essence, distinct from the world, supremely happy in himself and from himself, and inexpressibly loftier than anything besides himself which either exists or can be imagined. (1st Vatican Council, Chapter 1)
Note that the word “simple” is a technical philosophical/theological term meaning “completely homogeneous” or “without parts.” If this is what God is, then the Trinity must be a single Being, a single spritual “substance.” But since the New Testament clearly presents them as three “persons,” the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit must somehow all exist as distinct persons within an spiritual “substance” that has no parts. It’s supposed to be a mystery that is not accessible by human reason.

On the other hand, Mormons believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three separate Beings, whose spirits are human in form, and that physical bodies actually clothe the bodies of the Father and Son (1 Nephi 11:11; D&C 130:22). Furthermore, Mormons believe that men can become “gods” (D&C 132:20). Although it isn’t in our scriptures, Joseph Smith also taught the doctrine that God the Father was once a man like us, who has a Father, and who was exalted to be God (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 345). How can we say that there is “one God”? For us, God is “one” in three senses.
  1. First, God the Father is the absolute monarch of the Universe. If there are other gods ruling over other Universes, we don’t have anything to do with them. “The Father is the one true God. This thing is certain: no one will ever ascend above Him; no one will ever replace Him. Nor will anything ever change the relationship that we, His literal offspring, have with Him. He is Elohim, the Father. He is God; of Him there is only one. We revere our Father and our God; we worship Him.” (Boyd K. Packer, Let Not Your Heart Be Troubled, Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1991, 293.)
  2. Second, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are completely One in will, purpose, love, and covenant. This unity is so complete that they can be spoken of as “one God,” because they act as a single, perfectly unified, entity. (See “The Father and the Son,” in James R. Clark, Messages of the First Presidency, vol. 5, 23-34.)
  3. Third, all those who are exalted to become gods are perfectly one in each other, just as the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are one in each other. Brigham Young explained this in the following quotations.
If men are faithful, the time will come when they will possess the power and the knowledge to obtain, organize, bring into existence, and own. “What, of themselves, independent of their Creator?” No. But they and their Creator will always be one, they will always be of one heart and of one mind, working and operating together; for whatsoever the Father doeth so doeth the son, and so they continue throughout all their operations to all eternity. (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 2: 305–306.)
When shall we become entirely independent? Never, though we are as independent in our spheres as the Gods of eternity are in theirs. (Brigham Young, JD 8:190.)
Is he one? Yes. Is his trinity one? Yes. Is his organization one? Are the heavens one? Yes. (Brigham Young, JD 14:93–94.)
Gods exist, and we had better strive to be prepared to be one with them. (Brigham Young, JD 7:238.)
So whose definition of the Divine Unity is right? Mormons argue that the only time the Bible says anything about how God is one, it implies that humans can be one with each other and one in the Father and Son in the same way that the Father and Son are one in each other. This seems to us to fit very well with our definition of the Divine Unity, but to be at odds with the mainstream Christian definition.
Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.” (John 17:20-23)
(Cont’d in next post.)
 
(Cont’d from last post.)

”Your Monotheism Isn’t Good Enough!”

Mormons generally don’t really care what “label” is placed on our beliefs, as long as those beliefs are understood properly. After all, the Bible never talks about “monotheism,” but only about there being “one God” and more than one Person being “God.” Since we incorporate all that into our belief system, the relevant question is whether our interpretation of those statements is correct–not whether it fits neatly into someone’s classification system.

The mentally lazy Monotheism Police, on the other hand, can’t accept that kind of nuanced answer. “Your doctrine isn’t really monotheism!” they stomp and whine. Whatever. But before I roll my eyes and move on, I would like to make a couple points.

First, Muslims commonly attack the mainstream Trinity doctrine because it isn’t “monotheist” enough. “If there are three Persons who are God, then it isn’t really a single God, no matter how much you repeat your special pleading about ‘unity of Being,’” they say.

Second, the earliest Christians had a more nuanced understanding of this issue, as well, and cared less about labels than the Monotheism Police. For example, J.N.D. Kelly describes the most numerous party at the Council of Nicea (325 A.D.) as “the great conservative ‘middle party,’” whose doctrine was that there were three divine persons, “separate in rank and glory but united in harmony of will.” (J.N.D. Kelly, Early Christian Doctrines, Revised ed., San Francisco: Harper Collins, 1978, 247–248). Since Christ and the Holy Spirit were considered lower in rank than the Father, but united in will, some very prominent early Christian writers sometimes referred to Jesus as a “second god.” Here are a few quotations to illustrate these points.
I shall attempt to persuade you, since you have understood the Scriptures,[of the truth] of what I say, that there is, and that there is said to be, another God and Lord subject to the Maker of all things; who is also called an Angel, because He announces to men whatsoever the Maker of all things–above whom there is no other God–wishes to announce to them… I shall endeavour to persuade you, that He who is said to have appeared to Abraham, and to Jacob, and to Moses, and who is called God, is distinct from Him who made all things,–numerically, I mean, not[distinct] in will. (Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho 56, in ANF 1:223, brackets in original. The words “another God” are deuteros theos, which many translators render “a second God.”)
Our teacher of these things is Jesus Christ, who also was born for this purpose, and was crucified under Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judæa, in the times of Tiberius Cæsar; and that we reasonably worship Him, having learned that He is the Son of the true 167 God Himself, and holding Him in the second place, and the prophetic Spirit in the third, we will prove. (Justin Martyr, First Apology 13.)
[W]hile I recognize the Son, I assert His distinction as second to the Father. (Tertullian, Against Praxeas 7, in ANF 3:602.)
“We are not afraid to speak, in one sense of two Gods, in another sense of one God.” (Origen, Dial Heracl. 2:3)
“And these, while they are two, considered as persons or subsistences, are one in unity of thought, in harmony and in identity of will.” (Origen, Against Celsus 8:12, in ANF 4:643-644.)
“But the Paraclete being less than Christ, moreover, by this very fact proves Christ to be God, from whom He has received what He declares . . . .” (Novatian, On the Trinity 16, in ANF 5:625.)
Remember how Moses calls the Being, Who appeared to the patriarchs, and often delivered to them the oracles afterwards written down in Scripture sometimes God and Lord, and sometimes the Angel of the Lord. He clearly implies that this was not the Omnipotent God, but a secondary Being, rightly called the God and Lord of holy men, but the Angel of the Most High His Father. (Eusebius of Caesarea, The Proof of the Gospel 1:5.)
This idea that the Son and Spirit are gods, or part of the One God, yet separate and subordinate to the Father is called “Subordinationism.” This belief is now a heresy within mainstream Christianity, but Mormons hold to it, as did the earliest Christians. R.P.C. Hansen, a well-known Anglican historian of early Christianity, summarized as follows.
Indeed, until Athanasius began writing, every single theologian, East and West, had postulated some form of Subordinationism. It could, about the year 300, have been described as a fixed part of catholic theology. (Hansen, R., “The Achievement of Orthodoxy in the Fourth Century AD,” in Williams, ed., The Making of Orthodoxy, 153.)
Monotheism, polytheism, henotheism–it makes little difference to me. What matters to me is that I think the LDS doctrine of God is true. It is a restoration (and somewhat of an expansion) of the original Christian doctrine.
 
I’m sure you spent a lot of time and effort on your essay. However, Mormonism is not the result of the “restoration” of the original Christian doctrine. There is not a shred of evidence to support that view. Hence, you proceed from a false assumption.

Mormonism is a polytheistic, non-Christian religion as compared to other Christian faiths and sects. There once was a time that Mormons sought to distinguish themselves from other faiths; more recently they have sought to be viewed as more “mainstream”. These efforts, in whichever direction they go and at whatever time they are made, do not change the fundamental issues about Mormonism.

This is not about labels, it is not even about efforts to demonize Mormons, although some posters to this forum do seem to be incapable of distinguishing between assessments of Mormon doctrine and personal attacks. It is about Mormon doctrine itself. It is polytheistic, and no matter how many times the “one in purpose” mantra is repeated, unless and until the Mormon “prophet” has some sort of “revelation” that contradicts a lot of the original Joseph Smith stories, and that’s just for starters, the determination of the nature of the faith cannot change. It is polytheism. Mormons may not like that, but that’s what it is.

Since it doesn’t matter to most Mormons anyway, it is hard to understand why any Mormon would make a big deal about it.
 
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