Mormons: Henotheists or Polytheists?

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No problem. Catholics who find it too tiresome to support their points make less work for me.
I gave you the information. A simple search of the topic on these fora would produce numerous results. Anyone who cannot be bothered to do something that simple undoubtedly would not be bothered to follow cites or read in depth analysis.

Thank you for clearing up the whole “lazy” question.
 
Hi Rebecca,

I’ve been reading up on the “mystery” of the Trinity, and it occurred to me that I should make a clarification. As I understand it, Catholics recognize that the ideas that a) God is simple, and b) God is Three Persons are an APPARENT contradiction. But the contradiction is only apparent, rather than actual, because we are operating from a limited, human perspective, and we can’t really grasp the Being of God. I’ve cut and pasted below part of the article on “The Blessed Trinity” from the Catholic Encyclopedia. I think it supports what I’m saying.

The trinity as a mystery

The Vatican Council has explained the meaning to be attributed to the term mystery in theology. It lays down that a mystery is a truth which we are not merely incapable of discovering apart from Divine Revelation, but which, even when revealed, remains “hidden by the veil of faith and enveloped, so to speak, by a kind of darkness” (Constitution, “De fide. cath.”, iv). In other words, our understanding of it remains only partial, even after we have accepted it as part of the Divine message. Through analogies and types we can form a representative concept expressive of what is revealed, but we cannot attain that fuller knowledge which supposes that the various elements of the concept are clearly grasped and their reciprocal compatibility manifest. As regards the vindication of a mystery, the office of the natural reason is solely to show that it contains no intrinsic impossibility, that any objection urged against it on Reason. "Expressions such as these are undoubtedly the score that it violates the laws of thought is invalid. More than this it cannot do.
The Vatican Council further defined that the Christian Faith contains mysteries strictly so called (can. 4). All theologians admit that the doctrine of the Trinity is of the number of these. Indeed, of all revealed truths this is the most impenetrable to reason. Hence, to declare this to be no mystery would be a virtual denial of the canon in question. Moreover, our Lord’s words, Matthew 11:27, “No one knoweth the Son, but the Father,” seem to declare expressly that the plurality of Persons in the Godhead is a truth entirely beyond the scope of any created intellect. The Fathers supply many passages in which the incomprehensibility of the Divine Nature is affirmed. St. Jerome says, in a well-known phrase: “The true profession of the mystery of the Trinity is to own that we do not comprehend it” (De mysterio Trinitatus recta confessio est ignoratio scientiae – “Proem ad 1. xviii in Isai.”). The controversy with the Eunomians, who declared that the Divine Essence was fully expressed in the absolutely simple notion of “the Innascible” (agennetos), and that this was fully comprehensible by the human mind, led many of the Greek Fathers to insist on the incomprehensibility of the Divine Nature, more especially in regard to the internal processions. St. Basil, I.14Against Eunomius; St. Cyril of Jerusalem, VICatechetical Lectures; St. John Damascene, I.2Of the Orthodox Faith, etc.).
At a later date, however, some famous names are to be found defending a contrary opinion. Anselm (“Monol.”, 64), Abelard (“ln Ep. ad Rom.”), Hugo of St. Victor (“De sacram.” III, xi), and Richard of St. Victor (“De Trin.”, III, v) all declare that it is possible to assign peremptory reasons why God should be both One and Three. In explanation of this it should be noted that at that period the relation of philosophy to revealed doctrine was but obscurely understood. Only after the Aristotelean system had obtained recognition from theologians was this question thoroughly treated. In the intellectual ferment of the time Abelard initiated a Rationalistic tendency: not merely did he claim a knowledge of the Trinity for the pagan philosophers, but his own Trinitarian doctrine was practically Sabellian. Anselm’s error was due not to Rationalism, but to too wide an application of the Augustinian principle “Crede ut intelligas”. Hugh and Richard of St. Victor were, however, certainly influenced by Abelard’s teaching. Raymond Lully’s (1235-1315) errors in this regard were even more extreme. They were expressly condemned by Gregory XI in 1376. In the nineteenth century the influence of the prevailing Rationalism manifested itself in several Catholic writers. Frohschammer and Günther both asserted that the dogma of the Trinity was capable of proof. Pius IX reprobated their opinions on more than one occasion (Denzinger, 1655 sq., 1666 sq., 1709 sq.), and it was to guard against this tendency that the Vatican Council issued the decrees to which reference has been made. A somewhat similar, though less aggravated, error on the part of Rosmini was condemned, 14 December, 1887 (Denz., 1915).
 
Hi Rebecca,

I’ve been reading up on the “mystery” of the Trinity, and it occurred to me that I should make a clarification. As I understand it, Catholics recognize that the ideas that a) God is simple, and b) God is Three Persons are an APPARENT contradiction. But the contradiction is only apparent, rather than actual, because we are operating from a limited, human perspective, and we can’t really grasp the Being of God. I’ve cut and pasted below part of the article on “The Blessed Trinity” from the Catholic Encyclopedia. I think it supports what I’m saying.
What you are saying now, or at first? I agree with this post, that there is no contradiction. What you were saying before, is that there is a contradiction between reasoning and comprehending.
 
I’ve been reading up on the “mystery” of the Trinity, and it occurred to me that I should make a clarification. As I understand it, Catholics recognize that the ideas that a) God is simple, and b) God is Three Persons are an APPARENT contradiction. But the contradiction is only apparent, rather than actual, because we are operating from a limited, human perspective, and we can’t really grasp the Being of God. I’ve cut and pasted below part of the article on “The Blessed Trinity” from the Catholic Encyclopedia. I think it supports what I’m saying.
It supports what Rebecca has been saying, you mean. 😉 Glad to see that you understand a little better now.
 
BDawg, circling back around, is this cleared up for you?

“So the problem is, how can something completely “without parts” have any kind of “Threeness”?”
 
It’s like there’s this different language where all the words are the same, but they mean different things…
 
What you are saying now, or at first? I agree with this post, that there is no contradiction. What you were saying before, is that there is a contradiction between reasoning and comprehending.
I’m sorry, I’m not understanding what you are saying, here.
 
I’m confused here, because some of you think that I’ve changed my mind about something, but I’m not sure what. In my initial post, I said that how a simple Being can be Three Persons is a mystery that is beyond human comprehension, according to the RCC. That is still my point of view.

Rebecca mistook what I said to mean that no reasonable person could accept the Trinity doctrine. I explained that I did not mean that.

Then I explained that it is my perception that Catholics only think this is an “apparent,” contradiction, rather than a real one. It only appears to be a contradiction because the human mind can’t comprehend the Being of God.

I quoted the CE, which said stuff like:
The Vatican Council has explained the meaning to be attributed to the term mystery in theology. It lays down that a mystery is a truth which we are not merely incapable of discovering apart from Divine Revelation, but which, even when revealed, remains “hidden by the veil of faith and enveloped, so to speak, by a kind of darkness” (Constitution, “De fide. cath.”, iv). In other words, our understanding of it remains only partial, even after we have accepted it as part of the Divine message.
Doesn’t this all support my original statement that the mystery of HOW a simple Being can be Three Persons is not accessible to human reason?

I agree that I need to update what I said to make the “apparent contradiction” point clear. I certainly don’t want to offend Catholics by not giving a complete enough rendition of your doctrine. I just can’t see how what I said in the first place was false.
 
Hi Rebecca,

Please don’t take my last post as a criticism of you. The fact is that I was criticizing the mainstream Trinity doctrine in my post–it’s hard to support the Mormon view without contradicting yours. I just didn’t mean to criticize the trinity doctrine in the way you were taking it, or even in the passage you picked out. I was just trying to fairly describe it. So even though I don’t think my description was wrong, it seems natural enough that someone like you would mistake what I was trying to say, given the context of the entire post. If I post that same essay again, I’ll be sure to update it so my meaning is clearer.
 
Hi Rebecca,

Please don’t take my last post as a criticism of you. The fact is that I was criticizing the mainstream Trinity doctrine in my post–it’s hard to support the Mormon view without contradicting yours. I just didn’t mean to criticize the trinity doctrine in the way you were taking it, or even in the passage you picked out. I was just trying to fairly describe it. So even though I don’t think my description was wrong, it seems natural enough that someone like you would mistake what I was trying to say, given the context of the entire post. If I post that same essay again, I’ll be sure to update it so my meaning is clearer.
Yes, I understand that you are here to observe and take notes.
 
Although I don’t think my original post was wrong about the mystery of the Trinity, I did learn something I didn’t know before from that CE article I posted.

I’ve always thought of the whole “mystery of the Trinity” business as a giant cop-out. I mean, if nobody is able to understand how God can be simple and Three Persons at the same time, then how can anyone expect me to “believe” the dogma? Believe what? Some set of words that I can’t understand? It seemed pretty ridiculous.

But after reading that article, I don’t think I was doing you guys justice. It seems like what the RCC is saying is that people are supposed to believe what you see as the “revealed” information. Yes, that information includes an apparent contradiction that we can’t really get our finite heads around, but we aren’t required to believe anything about HOW God is both simple and Three Persons. In fact, we are required to acknowledge that we can’t understand it, and leave it at that, because any attempt to explain it would deny the “incomprehensibility” of the Being of God–also considered a revealed truth. So it isn’t so much that I’m required to believe a set of words I can’t understand. Rather, I’m required to believe that I can’t understand them. It seems perfectly ok to me to define a dogma that says there are certain things human minds can’t comprehend.

Hopefully I got that right, because it makes more sense to me, now.
 
Although I don’t think my original post was wrong about the mystery of the Trinity, I did learn something I didn’t know before from that CE article I posted.

I’ve always thought of the whole “mystery of the Trinity” business as a giant cop-out. I mean, if nobody is able to understand how God can be simple and Three Persons at the same time, then how can anyone expect me to “believe” the dogma? Believe what? Some set of words that I can’t understand? It seemed pretty ridiculous.

But after reading that article, I don’t think I was doing you guys justice. It seems like what the RCC is saying is that people are supposed to believe what you see as the “revealed” information. Yes, that information includes an apparent contradiction that we can’t really get our finite heads around, but we aren’t required to believe anything about HOW God is both simple and Three Persons. In fact, we are required to acknowledge that we can’t understand it, and leave it at that, because any attempt to explain it would deny the “incomprehensibility” of the Being of God–also considered a revealed truth. So it isn’t so much that I’m required to believe a set of words I can’t understand. Rather, I’m required to believe that I can’t understand them. It seems perfectly ok to me to define a dogma that says there are certain things human minds can’t comprehend.

Hopefully I got that right, because it makes more sense to me, now.
We don’t understand the how of anything about God. No one does.

As I’ve said before, a Mystery is not unknown, it is known because God has revealed it, and what God has revealed we can come to reasonably understand. We do not comprehend the how.

That is why I said, you were confusing reasoning with comprehension.

You got it right.

Ready to go to the subject of subordination? If so, do you understand the difference between the economic and ontological Trinity? If not, I recommend starting there.
 
Ready to go to the subject of subordination? If so, do you understand the difference between the economic and ontological Trinity? If not, I recommend starting there.
I think so. The economic Trinity is sort of “what God does,” and the ontological Trinity is more like “what God is.”

Lead on, sherpa.
 
I think so. The economic Trinity is sort of “what God does,” and the ontological Trinity is more like “what God is.”

Lead on, sherpa.
P.S., as I understand it, you believe that the Son and Spirit are “economically” subordinate to the Father, but not “ontologically.”
 
I was reading Zerinus’ blog about deification and plurality of gods. He linked to it early in this thread. Its pretty lenghty, though I would like to see someone write a point by point refutation though it would take a while to write one. But basically he keeps using Bible quotes out of context. He keeps saying that when the Bible says “gods” it literally means deities, ignoring Bible passages such as Isaiah 44:6, Isaiah 46:9, Isaiah 43:10, and Isaiah 45:21-22. I found that the Biblical passages that say “gods” can in fact be understood in ways that dont involve multiple deities, but the blog cares to disagree. Then he starts using early Church quotes to support that there are many gods and that one day we will be gods too, again ignoring the Bible passages I have previously cited. I think he used early writings on Mysticism/Theosis out of context, or maybe he even used quotes about other topics out of context. Ill try to get a more detailed refutation on his early Church quotes. Any help would be appreciated.
 
I was reading Zerinus’ blog about deification and plurality of gods. He linked to it early in this thread. Its pretty lenghty, though I would like to see someone write a point by point refutation though it would take a while to write one. But basically he keeps using Bible quotes out of context. He keeps saying that when the Bible says “gods” it literally means deities, ignoring Bible passages such as Isaiah 44:6, Isaiah 46:9, Isaiah 43:10, and Isaiah 45:21-22. . . .
There is more in my blog to keep you busy! 🙂 Check out this article for the Isaiah quotes:

zerinus.blogspot.com/2007/07/isaiah-4310.html

zerinus
 
There is more in my blog to keep you busy! 🙂 Check out this article for the Isaiah quotes:

zerinus.blogspot.com/2007/07/isaiah-4310.html

zerinus
zerinus,

Maybe you should tell us what you mean by a ‘god’ in the first place. I’m suspicious that you think of it in the way that Arians do that is, God the Father is truly infinite and eternal (as you’ve explained) but Christ is a god of a lesser order, a created being that the God decided to share some divinity with. In that sense, us becoming gods means being like Christ is, lesser yes, but infused with divinity because the God decidest o share. In that case our debate would fruitfully be about trinitarianism, because if that is true you’re really a monotheistic Arian and your talk about ‘gods’ isn’t actually a matter of polytheism. Please correct me if I am mistaken about your position.
 
I think so. The economic Trinity is sort of “what God does,” and the ontological Trinity is more like “what God is.”

Lead on, sherpa.
Close.

Although wikipedia is a poor reference, I do like their definitions…from the entry on Trinity:
  • Economic Trinity: This refers to the acts of the triune God with respect to the creation, history, salvation, the formation of the Church, the daily lives of believers, etc. and describes how the Trinity operates within history in terms of the roles or functions performed by each of the Persons of the Trinity—God’s relationship with creation.
  • Ontological (or essential or immanent) Trinity: This speaks of the interior life of the Trinity (John 1:1–2, note John 1:1)—the reciprocal relationships of Father, Son and Spirit to each other without reference to God’s relationship with creation.
    Do you know why we believe subordination in an economic sense but not ontological?
 
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