Mormons- how could you? "Killing her twice" Your church does not offer an appropriate response

[Cavaradossi]

I seem to be hearing a lot of the “it is a useless sacrament, so why be bothered by it?” type of replies.

I don’t need to tell you that some find all of the sacraments from all believers useless.
Again, it is not about the usefulness of the ritual.

It is about respect for the dead. Apparently, because this attack is of a religious nature it should be shrugged off as silly and useless, not worth getting upset over.

Once any one of us is dead, could we allow anyone to say anything about our affilations with the same reaction?

Mr. Joe Jones dies. He was a law abiding man faithfully married to his wife. A pedophile organization decides that Mr. Jones was a memeber of their association, even if he expressed no desire to be a pedophile, nor was a pedophile. What’s the harm? He is dead, what will he care about this in heaven? Or in Hell? Why would it matter to anyone?

Mr. Jones faithfully served The United States of America as a proud Marine for 20 years. He died on the battlefield a hero. Would it be okay if the Russians claimed him to be their hero because they had decided he really wanted to work for their team but, could not while alive? What harm would be done?

There are current stories in the news right now about men claiming to be war heros that never were. Seems to be a grey area about this.

I don’t care what an Orthodox Christian thinks the word Martyr means in terms of belief in Christianity. Anne Frank was not a Christian. She believed her religion was the true religion. Not Christianity. Therefore it is what her religion views her status that counts.
Orthodox Christians don’t view Roman Catholic sacraments as valid. To them, every ritual outside of their faith is useless. It’s surprizing they would be worked up enough to comment about how useless others rituals are.

No one should take a dead person’s name and decide to do what they wish with it. The living family members should not have to see their loved one listed as a member of any organization, religious or not- that they never wished to belong to. Why give a pass to religion?

I do not want to have association with any disco organization. I have and will stand firm in this conviction till death. To put may name next to such a thing would be disrespecting my living wishes.

All I am saying is that martyr literally means sign or witness. One who did not die as a witness to Christ cannot be a martyr from any Christian perspective. With that being said, you are getting worked up over a whole lot of nothing. Take some of that not caring you do with regards to the opinions of Orthodox Christians and apply it to the proxy baptisms of Mormons.

 

[StrawberryJam]

You are getting worked up over a whole lot of nothing. Take some of that not caring you do with regards to the opinions of Orthodox Christians and apply it to the proxy baptisms of Mormons.

I have a hypotheses about your advice. If one takes your advice, hopefully many others will and eventually all will be dulled to any type of horror that is carried out by believers.

 

[Cavaradossi]

I have a hypotheses about your advice. If one takes your advice, hopefully many others will and eventually all will be dulled to any type of horror that is carried out by believers.

This is just silly, do you find the fact that the Catholics and the Orthodox pray for peace in the land without the consent of the entire nation to be a horror?

 

[Kaninchen]

Perhaps some Santería practitioners could be persuaded to do posthumous conversion of Mormons so they could have the chance of eternal life (as Zombies)?

 

[KathleenGee]

Apparently a Jew on a comedy show baptized all the Mormons Jewish on public television.

People here see no big deal. But in January of 2008, the Vatican did make it official the Mormons were not allowed to gain access.

www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0802443.htm

The Mormons were did not indifferent to the ruling.

www.timeandseasons.org has an article entitled ‘Catholic Parish Registers Belong to Humanity’. It is interesting to read Mormon comments about the ruling.

 

[PeterL]

Mormons do not see baptism for the dead as being disrespectful. If Catholics absolutely knew that their church was the one and only true church, they would not feel it disrespectful to offer the gospel to those who did not understand the truth or were never offered it in mortality. Most likely these people have more information now that they have passed over. If people want to put a stop to this, then it is they who are deciding the fate of the deceased. Mormons are not forcing the dead to accept the gospel. Baptism for the dead is more like a personal invitation.

Jesus said that the last shall be first and the first shall be last. By placing a hold on Jewish baptisms, I figure that the disgruntled are helping to fulfill prophecy. Mormons believe that most of the baptisms will be performed during the millineum. The jews will just have to wait a little longer.

 

[TexanKnight]

Mormons do not see baptism for the dead as being disrespectful. If Catholics absolutely knew that their church was the one and only true church, they would not feel it disrespectful to offer the gospel to those who did not understand the truth or were never offered it in mortality. Most likely these people have more information now that they have passed over. If people want to put a stop to this, then it is they who are deciding the fate of the deceased. Mormons are not forcing the dead to accept the gospel. Baptism for the dead is more like a personal invitation.

Jesus said that the last shall be first and the first shall be last. By placing a hold on Jewish baptisms, I figure that the disgruntled are helping to fulfill prophecy. Mormons believe that most of the baptisms will be performed during the millineum. The jews will just have to wait a little longer.

That is truly sad. It should not matter if Mormons think it is disrespectful…WE think it is. Your comment seems to say that it would not matter if you think it is disrespectful to take your babies from hospitals and baptize them as long as WE do not think it is disrespectful.

I think it is just sad that Mormons do not care about consent, yet believe babies cannot be baptized because THEY CANNOT CONSENT.

It is a horribly disrespectful double standard

 

[FabiusMaximus]

And?..parents make decisions for their children. That is what being a parent means. My parents made the decision to baptize me LDS when I was eight years old, which was their right, as my parents. I also believe I should love and honor my parents. I hold no ill will towards them for practicing what they believe.

Mormons don’t believe they are making this decision for anyone, dead or alive. They do a proxy baptism, with the belief that the dead soul has to accept it. So the comparison that is trying to be made here, doesn’t work for Catholics or for Mormons.

It’s actually more of an argument for the proxy baptism. Because you can choose to accept the baptism on your death or reject it. You can’t do that in Catholicism. Once you’re baptized, you’re sealed and that’s the end of it.

With all due respect, Rebecca, I think your bias toward Catholicism is preventing you from seeing that the intention in Mormonism in proxy baptism is the same for a Catholic parent with infant baptism. They are trying to help those whose souls they fear might be endangered. It wasn’t too long ago that my grandparents, when my older sister was born, threatened to take her and have her baptized because my parents refused to.

I can’t help it if you are unable to see that parents make decisions for their children. Finding that FACT offensive is just a sign of religious bigotry, IMNHO.

But the vehement attacks we’ve seen against Mormonism, accusing them of “killing holocaust victims twice” because they favor proxy baptism is not a sign of religious bigotry?

 

[FabiusMaximus]

Nothing against Anne Frank, but those who die outside of the Christian faith by definition are not martyrs (they did not witness to Christ). After death, I will either have tasted the joy of paradise, or I will be in hell for my unrepentance. Under neither circumstance will I care what some people did in my name after my death.

She really wasn’t much of a martyr for Judaism, either. She was hardly a practicing Jew. If I’m correct she even mentioned her dislike of religion in general. She considered herself more or less a little Dutch girl, not a Je

because some of dislike things happening to us without consent.

Then you must really hate Catholicism because I don’t recall that the baby being baptized according to Roman Catholic tradition consents to baptism.

Indeed, one of the major criticisms of infant baptism is precisely that it removes consent from the equation. It is also a major reason why ex-Catholics, upon converting to Evangelicalism, decide to rebaptize (or are asked to be rebaptized).

 

[chosen_people]

Forgive me for being crass, but if she is in paradise, then she won’t care; if she is in hell, them she will have greater concerns. Either way, Anne Frank will probably not care.

Now everyone knows that Jews can’t get into heaven

 

[Bezant]

Perhaps some Santería practitioners could be persuaded to do posthumous conversion of Mormons so they could have the chance of eternal life (as Zombies)?

You’re awfully funny Kaninchen thanks for trying to release some of the steam.

 

[RebeccaJ]

It’s actually more of an argument for the proxy baptism. Because you can choose to accept the baptism on your death or reject it. You can’t do that in Catholicism. Once you’re baptized, you’re sealed and that’s the end of it.

With all due respect, Rebecca, I think your bias toward Catholicism is preventing you from seeing that the intention in Mormonism in proxy baptism is the same for a Catholic parent with infant baptism. They are trying to help those whose souls they fear might be endangered. It wasn’t too long ago that my grandparents, when my older sister was born, threatened to take her and have her baptized because my parents refused to.

But the vehement attacks we’ve seen against Mormonism, accusing them of “killing holocaust victims twice” because they favor proxy baptism is not a sign of religious bigotry?

With all due respect, you don’t know anything about me.

We are not out scouring hospital records in order that we can baptize every child that is ever born. We are baptizing our OWN CHILDREN. I can see that you don’t have any idea what it means to be a parent, so I’ll just leave it at that. Or maybe you are one of those parents that doesn’t even name their children, or call them he or she, because you don’t want to stigmatize them with social ideas. I don’t know, but it is a fact that parents raise and teach their children. To think someone is not going to baptize their own child is ludicrous, and has absolutely NOTHING to do with Mormons scouring every sacramental record they can so they have something to do in their temples. It is a link that has no commonality.

Some people have mommy and daddy issues, they need to grow up and get over them.

Accusing Mormons of killing someone again is hyperbole, aimed at the gullible during a time when presidential candidates are being selected and one of those in the running is a Mormon. I don’t agree with the statement and never have, but thanks for playing.

 

[StrawberryJam]

Perhaps some Santería practitioners could be persuaded to do posthumous conversion of Mormons so they could have the chance of eternal life (as Zombies)?

It seems that there is a group of people who have decided to do this very same ritual to the Mormon dead also.

Its the gayz this time. They proxy baptized Joseph Smith.

 

[SaintPatrick333]

So I can’t do anything about this stain. Very sad. At least my parents didn’t cut off some of my body parts. Oh wait…

If there is only one baptism then why are folks getting upset over what the Mormons are doing?

I mean, nobody seems to make a big deal out of the fact that just about everyone in the western world is Jewish.

I’m assuming you are hinting at circumcision? For some their parents opted for that because of faith. For most, at least here in america, it was seen as a healthier choice. If anything my friend “you” are being a stain on your baptism. What is your purpose here anyways? Are you here to learn and have honest debate or are you just looking to scandalize the Church and get a rise out of people? If the latter then kindly see your way out and let the grown ups continue talking.

 

[Zundrah]

Perhaps the Catholic could lead by example and come up with some sort of ritual capable of reversing their own baptisms? I know I was baptized as a infant and from what I understand it somehow put some sort of unremovable stain on my soul. Very untidy and quite offensive.

Why did this make me laugh?

 

[Cavaradossi]

Now everyone knows that Jews can’t get into heaven

I wouldn’t dare to say that I know that.

 

[chosen_people]

Mormons do not see baptism for the dead as being disrespectful. If Catholics absolutely knew that their church was the one and only true church, they would not feel it disrespectful to offer the gospel to those who did not understand the truth or were never offered it in mortality. Most likely these people have more information now that they have passed over. If people want to put a stop to this, then it is they who are deciding the fate of the deceased. Mormons are not forcing the dead to accept the gospel. Baptism for the dead is more like a personal invitation.

Jesus said that the last shall be first and the first shall be last. By placing a hold on Jewish baptisms, I figure that the disgruntled are helping to fulfill prophecy. Mormons believe that most of the baptisms will be performed during the millineum. The jews will just have to wait a little longer.

You seriously don’t understand how performing a ceremony that is repugnant to our religious beliefs, our concept of God and contrary to our will is disrespectful.

You seriously don’t know that countless Jews were the victims of forced conversions and that countless more chose death and were murdered by Christian mobs for not converting

 

[SteveVH]

Perhaps the Catholic could lead by example and come up with some sort of ritual capable of reversing their own baptisms? I know I was baptized as a infant and from what I understand it somehow put some sort of unremovable stain on my soul. Very untidy and quite offensive.

You are free to reject Christ if you wish. That should have the same effect.

 

[mtolympus]

Perhaps the Catholic could lead by example and come up with some sort of ritual capable of reversing their own baptisms? I know I was baptized as a infant and from what I understand it somehow put some sort of unremovable stain on my soul. Very untidy and quite offensive.

That is an excellent point! Infants have no choice in the matter when it comes to their baptism in the Catholic church. However, baptisms for the dead in the LDS church must be accepted by the individual before the ordinance receives final approval by the Holy Spirit.

 

[SteveVH]

That is an excellent point! Infants have no choice in the matter when it comes to their baptism in the Catholic church. However, baptisms for the dead in the LDS church must be accepted by the individual before the ordinance receives final approval by the Holy Spirit.

As I said above, anyone is free to reject Christ after they are baptized if they so desire. They don’t have to go to heaven if they desire to spend eternity somewhere else.
What you are missing is the fact that we have this life and this life only to get it right. This is where we make our choices that affect our eternal destiny. It doesn’t bother me at all that Mormon’s baptize the dead because it is absolutely meaningless. I would rather have you spend your time in the temple doing this than out knocking on doors.