Mormons: How do you define a "Sacrament"?

[SteveVH]

I have noticed that the Mormon posters here have called both baptism and communion a sacrament. As a Catholic, I would call a sacrament an outward sign of an inward reality. The sacrament accomplishes what the symbol signifies. In baptism, for instance, the symbol of “water” signifies washing as well as dying and rising with Christ. In reality, our souls are washed clean from every stain of sin and we die to our old life and receive new life in Christ. Where we were spiritually dead, we become spiritually alive.

This seems to be an impediment in our discussions and I thought it would be good to understand each other’s meaning when speaking of sacraments.

Thanks.

 

[zerinus]

I have noticed that the Mormon posters here have called both baptism and communion a sacrament.

Well, I do! I don’t know about others.

As a Catholic, I would call a sacrament an outward sign of an inward reality.

Or “inward grace”. That is the most common definition. Here are some more definitions of a sacrament I found on the Internet:

1. (Christianity / Ecclesiastical Terms) an outward sign combined with a prescribed form of words and regarded as conferring some specific grace upon those who receive it. The Protestant sacraments are baptism and the Lord’s Supper. In the Roman Catholic and Eastern Churches they are baptism, penance, confirmation, the Eucharist, holy orders, matrimony, and the anointing of the sick (formerly extreme unction)
2. (Christianity / Ecclesiastical Terms) (often capital) the Eucharist
3. (Christianity / Ecclesiastical Terms) the consecrated elements of the Eucharist, esp the bread
   thefreedictionary.com/Sacraments
4. Christianity. A rite believed to be a means of or visible form of grace, especially:
   a. In the Eastern, Roman Catholic, and some other Western Christian churches, any of the traditional seven rites that were instituted by Jesus and recorded in the New Testament and that confer sanctifying grace.
   b.In most other Western Christian churches, the two rites, Baptism and the Eucharist, that were instituted by Jesus to confer sanctifying grace.
   answers.com/topic/sacrament
5. Ecclesiastical . a visible sign of an inward grace, esp. one of the solemn Christian rites considered to have been instituted by Jesus Christ to symbolize or confer grace: the sacraments of the Protestant churches are baptism and the Lord’s Supper; the sacraments of the Roman Catholic and Greek Orthodox churches are baptism, confirmation, the Eucharist, matrimony, penance, holy orders, and extreme unction.
6. (often initial capital letter) Also called Holy Sacrament. the Eucharist or Lord’s Supper.
7. the consecrated elements of the Eucharist, esp. the bread.
   dictionary.reference.com/browse/sacrament

A sacrament, as defined in Hexam’s Concise Dictionary of Religion is what Roman Catholics believe to be “a rite in which God is uniquely active.” Augustine of Hippo defined a Christian sacrament as "a visible sign of an invisible reality. …

Sacrament - Wikipedia

The Sacraments of the Catholic Church are, the Church teaches, "efficacious signs of grace, instituted by Christ and entrusted to the Church, by which divine life is dispensed to us. …

Sacraments of the Catholic Church - Wikipedia

sacrament - a formal religious ceremony conferring a specific grace on those who receive it; . . .
wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

sacrament - A sacred act or ceremony in Christianity. In Roman Catholic theology, a sacrament is defined as “an outward sign instituted by Christ to give grace.”
en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sacrament

Are signs or means of grace that Jesus commanded his disciples to continue. Almost all Christians observe Holy Communion and Baptism. Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox include five other sacraments. …
www.fandm.edu/x13718

The rites of the church that (in its view) Jesus instituted to confer sanctifying grace. With the sacraments, one achieved salvation. Cut off from the sacraments (by anathema, excommunication, or interdict), one was damned.
www.rosenweinshorthistory.com/glossary

Religious practices such as baptism, and receiving the Eucharist.
regentsprep.org/regents/global/vocab/topic.cfm

The sacrament accomplishes what the symbol signifies. In baptism, for instance, the symbol of “water” signifies washing as well as dying and rising with Christ. In reality, our souls are washed clean from every stain of sin and we die to our old life and receive new life in Christ. Where we were spiritually dead, we become spiritually alive.

Except that you missed out on a few things. Baptism must be preceded by faith and repentance for it to be efficacious at all; and baptism only remits committed sins, not the Original Sin. Also, the gift of the Holy Ghost comes by a separate sacrament of the laying on of hands, not just automatically by or at baptism.

This seems to be an impediment in our discussions and I thought it would be good to understand each other’s meaning when speaking of sacraments.

What is an “impediment”? The definition of sacrament or the definition of baptism? You seem to be confusing the two. Mormon definition of sacrament is basically the same as the above, expressed in different words. In the other thread I gave you the Mormon definition of sacrament as follows:

And in answer to your last question, a sacrament (or ordinance as we would call it) is a rite, a ritual, that is performed by the authority of the priesthood. It has a set procedure that must be followed, and it must be performed by the authority of the priesthood for it to be valid. Catholics use different words to define a sacrament, but in essence it means more or less the same thing. The biggest difference probably is that you believe that priesthood authority may not always be necessary to perform some of the sacraments, such as baptism for example in an emergency. But from our point of view priesthood authority is indispensable for the performance of sacraments. There are no exceptions.

What issue do you have with that definition?

 

[Z_Ninja]

Except that you missed out on a few things. Baptism must be preceded by faith and repentance for it to be efficacious at all; and baptism only remits committed sins, not the Original Sin. Also, the gift of the Holy Ghost comes by a separate sacrament of the laying on of hands, not just automatically by or at baptism.

someone correct me if I’m wrong, but we do not receive the gift of the Holy Spirit at Baptism, we are becoming members of the Church. We do receive the Holy Spirit, however, at the separate Sacrament of Confirmation, which is the third part of Initiation. Where, as you state, is given by the laying of hands, generally the celebrants Godparent is the one doing this. And we are also anointed with oil. I know I’m missing a lot here, but you get the gist.

 

[tundramom]

You are right Z-Ninja. The gift of the Holy Spirit is received at Confirmation.

Steph

 

[zerinus]

someone correct me if I’m wrong, but we do not receive the gift of the Holy Spirit at Baptism, we are becoming members of the Church. We do receive the Holy Spirit, however, at the separate Sacrament of Confirmation, which is the third part of Initiation. Where, as you state, is given by the laying of hands, generally the celebrants Godparent is the one doing this. And we are also anointed with oil. I know I’m missing a lot here, but you get the gist.

Thank you for your comments, but that is what SteveVH has been saying in another thread. See posts numbers #158, #173, #221, and #222 in that thread. So if that is incorrect, maybe that is something you should take up with him.

 

[KathleenGee]

Jesus began His public ministry at His baptism at the River Jordan. And we are to follow Him to enter into life with Him.

Baptism incorporates us into the mystical body of Christ. The sacrament of confirmation is a confirming and deepening of the sacrament of Baptism of one’s decision to be a Christian. The Apostles followed Jesus, were baptized, but did not have the power to go out to preach the Good News until they were filled with the Holy Spirit at Pentecost.

Under dire circumstances, a person approaching death, a Christian can baptize using the universal, Catholic rite, ‘I baptize you in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit’.

 

[SteveVH]

Except that you missed out on a few things. Baptism must be preceded by faith and repentance for it to be efficacious at all; and baptism only remits committed sins, not the Original Sin. Also, the gift of the Holy Ghost comes by a separate sacrament of the laying on of hands, not just automatically by or at baptism.

Thank you. We have our first difference. I didn’t miss anything. We do not believe that the sacrament of Baptism must be preceded by faith and repentance. We believe that true faith and repentance is not possible without the sanctifying grace received in baptism. There is a difference in viewpoints here, one focuses on man’s actions and intentions while the other focuses more on God’s actions and intentions.

We believe that all sacraments are effected by Jesus Christ. It is Jesus who baptizes, it is Jesus who forgives, it is Jesus who becomes present to us in the Eucharist. He accomplishes this through His ministers, the bishops and priests. The power of the sacrament is not dependent upon man’s worthiness in any way, it is purely a gift from God who desires to make his home in us.

Other sacraments may depend upon the interior disposition of the one receiving them, insofar as their effectiveness in one’s life is concerned, but the full power of the sacrament is always available and is never diminished by man.

What is an “impediment”? The definition of sacrament or the definition of baptism? You seem to be confusing the two. Mormon definition of sacrament is basically the same as the above, expressed in different words. In the other thread I gave you the Mormon definition of sacrament as follows:

No, I’m not confused. What I have found in the past year that I have been conversing with Mormons is that we tend to speak past each other because our definition of terms vary to such a degree that communication is hindered. Even when we speak of “God”, our ideas are so different that it becomes very difficult to convey coherent thoughts to each other.

We started talking about sacraments and so I wanted to define the meaning behind the term so that we at least know the differences in meaning. For instance, you would use the term “ordinance” interchangeably with “sacrament”, just as many Protestant denominations would, while “sacrament” would mean mean something entirely different to
a Catholic or Eastern Orthodox. If we do not understand each other’s terms, it is impossible to communicate. The purpose of this thread is to try and resolve this, at least to some extent.

And in answer to your last question, a sacrament (or ordinance as we would call it) is a rite, a ritual, that is performed by the authority of the priesthood. It has a set procedure that must be followed, and it must be performed by the authority of the priesthood for it to be valid. Catholics use different words to define a sacrament, but in essence it means more or less the same thing. The biggest difference probably is that you believe that priesthood authority may not always be necessary to perform some of the sacraments, such as baptism for example in an emergency. But from our point of view priesthood authority is indispensable for the performance of sacraments. There are no exceptions.[/INDENT]

Well, you have described how it is performed, but not what it accomplishes in the human soul. I think that is where we will see the difference. My question does not concern procedure as much as effect. What actually happens in the interior life of the one receiving a sacrament? Also, how many sacraments does the Mormon Church recognize and what are they?

 

[SteveVH]

someone correct me if I’m wrong, but we do not receive the gift of the Holy Spirit at Baptism, we are becoming members of the Church. We do receive the Holy Spirit, however, at the separate Sacrament of Confirmation, which is the third part of Initiation. Where, as you state, is given by the laying of hands, generally the celebrants Godparent is the one doing this. And we are also anointed with oil. I know I’m missing a lot here, but you get the gist.

Yes, we do receive the gift of the Holy Spirit at Baptism. It is the means of receiving supernatural life that is lacking due to original sin. That gift is strengthened through the sacrament of Confirmation and nourished through reception of the Eucharist.

Concerning Baptism, the Catechism of the Catholic Church states:

"This sacrament is also called “the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit” for it signifies and actually brings about the birth of water and the Spirit without which no one can enter the kingdom of God". (CCC par. 1215)

 

[aquabatix]

Well, I do! I don’t know about others.

Or “inward grace”. That is the most common definition. Here are some more definitions of a sacrament I found on the Internet:

1. (Christianity / Ecclesiastical Terms) an outward sign combined with a prescribed form of words and regarded as conferring some specific grace upon those who receive it. The Protestant sacraments are baptism and the Lord’s Supper. In the Roman Catholic and Eastern Churches they are baptism, penance, confirmation, the Eucharist, holy orders, matrimony, and the anointing of the sick (formerly extreme unction)
2. (Christianity / Ecclesiastical Terms) (often capital) the Eucharist
3. (Christianity / Ecclesiastical Terms) the consecrated elements of the Eucharist, esp the bread
   thefreedictionary.com/Sacraments
4. Christianity. A rite believed to be a means of or visible form of grace, especially:
   a. In the Eastern, Roman Catholic, and some other Western Christian churches, any of the traditional seven rites that were instituted by Jesus and recorded in the New Testament and that confer sanctifying grace.
   b.In most other Western Christian churches, the two rites, Baptism and the Eucharist, that were instituted by Jesus to confer sanctifying grace.
   answers.com/topic/sacrament
5. Ecclesiastical . a visible sign of an inward grace, esp. one of the solemn Christian rites considered to have been instituted by Jesus Christ to symbolize or confer grace: the sacraments of the Protestant churches are baptism and the Lord’s Supper; the sacraments of the Roman Catholic and Greek Orthodox churches are baptism, confirmation, the Eucharist, matrimony, penance, holy orders, and extreme unction.
6. (often initial capital letter) Also called Holy Sacrament. the Eucharist or Lord’s Supper.
7. the consecrated elements of the Eucharist, esp. the bread.
   dictionary.reference.com/browse/sacrament

A sacrament, as defined in Hexam’s Concise Dictionary of Religion is what Roman Catholics believe to be “a rite in which God is uniquely active.” Augustine of Hippo defined a Christian sacrament as "a visible sign of an invisible reality. …
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacraments

The Sacraments of the Catholic Church are, the Church teaches, "efficacious signs of grace, instituted by Christ and entrusted to the Church, by which divine life is dispensed to us. …
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacraments_(Catholic_Church)

sacrament - a formal religious ceremony conferring a specific grace on those who receive it; . . .
wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

sacrament - A sacred act or ceremony in Christianity. In Roman Catholic theology, a sacrament is defined as “an outward sign instituted by Christ to give grace.”
en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sacrament

Are signs or means of grace that Jesus commanded his disciples to continue. Almost all Christians observe Holy Communion and Baptism. Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox include five other sacraments. …
www.fandm.edu/x13718

The rites of the church that (in its view) Jesus instituted to confer sanctifying grace. With the sacraments, one achieved salvation. Cut off from the sacraments (by anathema, excommunication, or interdict), one was damned.
www.rosenweinshorthistory.com/glossary

Religious practices such as baptism, and receiving the Eucharist.
regentsprep.org/regents/global/vocab/topic.cfm

Except that you missed out on a few things. Baptism must be preceded by faith and repentance for it to be efficacious at all; and baptism only remits committed sins, not the Original Sin. Also, the gift of the Holy Ghost comes by a separate sacrament of the laying on of hands, not just automatically by or at baptism.

What is an “impediment”? The definition of sacrament or the definition of baptism? You seem to be confusing the two. Mormon definition of sacrament is basically the same as the above, expressed in different words. In the other thread I gave you the Mormon definition of sacrament as follows:

And in answer to your last question, a sacrament (or ordinance as we would call it) is a rite, a ritual, that is performed by the authority of the priesthood. It has a set procedure that must be followed, and it must be performed by the authority of the priesthood for it to be valid. Catholics use different words to define a sacrament, but in essence it means more or less the same thing. The biggest difference probably is that you believe that priesthood authority may not always be necessary to perform some of the sacraments, such as baptism for example in an emergency. But from our point of view priesthood authority is indispensable for the performance of sacraments. There are no exceptions.

What issue do you have with that definition?

Can you explain how Mormon baptism covers “committed sins” but not “the Original Sin”?

 

[KathleenGee]

Also, Zerinus…I think I am having a Planten relapse…

I am getting more and more convinced, seeing your post #2 and comparing your past posts on repeating a theme from Colossians that we will be as gods…and the planets…and Kolob…

That we are experiencing two Zerinus…sorry, but that is my growing impression…

 

[tundramom]

Can you explain how Mormon baptism covers “committed sins” but not “the Original Sin”?

Hi Mike,
I am sure zerinus will have his own explanation, but I thought I’d point out that Mormons don’t believe in original sin.

Steph

 

[zerinus]

Thank you. We have our first difference. I didn’t miss anything. We do not believe that the sacrament of Baptism must be preceded by faith and repentance. We believe that true faith and repentance is not possible without the sanctifying grace received in baptism. There is a difference in viewpoints here, one focuses on man’s actions and intentions while the other focuses more on God’s actions and intentions.

Then your “differences” is not with me; it is with the Bible. The Bible teaches that faith and repentance must precede baptism, otherwise it is not going to do you any good:

Matthew 3:

7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance.

Matthew 3:

11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire

Mark 1:

4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
5 And there went out unto him all the land of Judæa, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.

Luke 3:

3 And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins

Luke 3:

7 Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: . . .

Luke 24:

46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
47 And that repentance and remission of sins [through baptism] should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Acts 2:

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 5:

31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Acts 13:

24 When John had first preached before his coming the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel.

Acts 19:

4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

We believe that all sacraments are effected by Jesus Christ. It is Jesus who baptizes, it is Jesus who forgives, it is Jesus who becomes present to us in the Eucharist. He accomplishes this through His ministers, the bishops and priests. The power of the sacrament is not dependent upon man’s worthiness in any way, it is purely a gift from God who desires to make his home in us.

Sorry, but that is not what they Bible says. “Bring froth fruit meet for repentance” it says! Just verbal repentance is not good enough either. You have to back it up with real “fruits”!

Other sacraments may depend upon the interior disposition of the one receiving them, insofar as their effectiveness in one’s life is concerned, but the full power of the sacrament is always available and is never diminished by man.

I don’t know what you are talking about here I am afraid.

We started talking about sacraments and so I wanted to define the meaning behind the term so that we at least know the differences in meaning. For instance, you would use the term “ordinance” interchangeably with “sacrament”, . . .

Well, we don’t use it “interchangeably;” we use it “instead of”. Because Mormonism did not originate by extraction from the Catholic Church or any of its derivatives, but is a completely new gospel dispensation, and entails a new Christian tradition, it has developed its own theological terms, which were not derived from historical Christianity. But there are equivalences between them. “Sacrament” vs. “ordinance” is a typical example.

Well, you have described how it is performed, but not what it accomplishes in the human soul. I think that is where we will see the difference. My question does not concern procedure as much as effect. What actually happens in the interior life of the one receiving a sacrament?

What it accomplishes depends on what the sacrament is. If it is baptism, it effects a remission of sins, and prepares the individual for the sanctification of the Holy Ghost, which is given by the sacrament of the laying on of hands. If it is the Eucharist, we believe it is a renewal of the covenant of baptism, and it is a sacrament whereby we remember the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, promise to always remember Him and keep His commandments, and He in return promises to give us of His Spirit to be always with us. If it is ordination to the priesthood (consecration), it conferes on us that indelible authority of the priesthood. And so forth.

Also, how many sacraments does the Mormon Church recognize and what are they?

I told you. I haven’t counted them to be honest; but as I explained, we accept all the seven sacraments of the Catholic Church, plus a few more which you don’t have.

 

[zerinus]

Can you explain how Mormon baptism covers “committed sins” but not “the Original Sin”?

We believe that the “guilt” of the Original Sin is unconditionally removed from us by the Atonement of Jesus Christ; and we are held accountable before God for our own sins only. Baptism, provided it is preceded by genuine repentance and faith in Jesus Christ, effects a remission of our personal sins, not the sin of Adam.

 

[SteveVH]

Then your “differences” is not with me; it is with the Bible. The Bible teaches that faith and repentance must precede baptism, otherwise it is not going to do you any good:Matthew 3…

You’re mixing and matching the baptism of John with that of baptism in Christ. John’s baptism was, indeed, a baptism of repentance. They are not the same. In Christ we are baptised with water and the spirit into His passion, death and resurrection. John’s baptism was for repentance. Baptism in water and the Spirit is a baptism of new birth.

You are also speaking of adults. It would seem nearly impossible for an adult, who was not repentant and who lacked faith, to even desire baptism so I would think they would go hand in hand just through the natural evolution of the conversion process. When speaking of adults we are also speaking of people who have committed personal sin. In any event, we are all called to repentance constantly, even after our baptism, and we receive forgiveness through the sacrament of Reconciliation.

As for infants, since they have committed no personal sin, baptism restores life to the soul and turns them toward God, whereas, prior to their baptism they had inherited a human nature devoid of original holiness and justice, a nature which turns us away from God.

Sorry, but that is not what they Bible says. “Bring froth fruit meet for repentance” it says! Just verbal repentance is not good enough either. You have to back it up with real “fruits”!

Again, this verse is speaking of John the Baptist who called man to repentance prior to the sacrifice and death of Jesus. This is not to say that our actions should not always produce fruits, but it has nothing to do with whether or not it is a requirement for Christian baptism of infants.

Originally Posted by SteveVH
Other sacraments may depend upon the interior disposition of the one receiving them, insofar as their effectiveness in one’s life is concerned, but the full power of the sacrament is always available and is never diminished by man.

I don’t know what you are talking about here I am afraid.

What I am talking about would be the interior disposition of one receiving the sacraments of Reconciliation or Eucharist, for example. If we approach either of these sacraments with anything less than complete reverence and pure intentions, the effect of the sacrament is diminished in that person. The full power of the sacrament is available, but the benefits are reduced or taken away all together in the person receiving them if they are not properly disposed to receive them. In the case of the Eucharist, it can even become a curse, if one “does not recognize the body and blood of the Lord”.

What it accomplishes depends on what the sacrament is. If it is baptism, it effects a remission of sins, and prepares the individual for the sanctification of the Holy Ghost, which is given by the sacrament of the laying on of hands. If it is the Eucharist, we believe it is a renewal of the covenant of baptism, and it is a sacrament whereby we remember the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, promise to always remember Him and keep His commandments, and He in return promises to give us of His Spirit to be always with us.

I thought you received the Holy Spirit through the “sacrament” of the "laying on of hands"as you call it. Are you saying the reception of the Holy Spirit is an ongoing matter associated with your communion (you don’t have the Eucharist)?

 

[zerinus]

You’re mixing and matching the baptism of John with that of baptism in Christ. John’s baptism was, indeed, a baptism of repentance. They are not the same.

All baptism is baptism of repentance, as attested by the scriptures cited.

In Christ we are baptised with water and the spirit into His passion, death and resurrection. John’s baptism was for repentance. Baptism in water and the Spirit is a baptism of new birth.

Baptism of water is for the remission of sins. The baptism of Spirit, the baptism of fire and Holy Ghost, comes by a separate sacrament of laying on of hands.

You are also speaking of adults. It would seem nearly impossible for an adult, who was not repentant and who lacked faith, to even desire baptism so I would think they would go hand in hand just through the natural evolution of the conversion process.

Well, they could be acting in hypocrisy, as some do; or as some Pharisees who went to John’s baptism did.

As for infants, since they have committed no personal sin, baptism restores life to the soul and turns them toward God, whereas, prior to their baptism they had inherited a human nature devoid of original holiness and justice, a nature which turns us away from God.

Here is where we totally disagree. Infants are redeemed unconditionally by the Atonement of Jesus Christ from the original sin, and they are “alive in Christ form the foundation of the world” (Moroni 8:12).

Again, this verse is speaking of John the Baptist who called man to repentance prior to the sacrifice and death of Jesus. This is not to say that our actions should not always produce fruits, but it has nothing to do with whether or not it is a requirement for Christian baptism of infants.

It is a requirement for all baptisms, as per scripture quotes given.

What I am talking about would be the interior disposition of one receiving the sacraments of Reconciliationor Eucharist, for example. If we approach either of these sacraments with anything less than complete reverence and pure intentions, the effect of the sacrament is diminished in that person. The full power of the sacrament is available, but the benefits are reduced or taken away all together in the person receiving them if they are not properly disposed to receive them.In the case of the Eucharist, it can even become a curse, if one “does not recognize the body and blood of the Lord”.

Yes, I am not sure what is the point you are making though, since that is not an issue in dsipute.

I thought you received the Holy Spirit through the “sacrament” of the "laying on of hands"as you call it. Are you saying the reception of the Holy Spirit is an ongoing matter associated with your communion (you don’t have the Eucharist)?

Our theology of the Eucharist, or what we call the Sacrament, is a bit different from yours. At confirmation, through the sacrament of the laying on of hands, we receive the “gift of the Holy Ghost,” which is the right of the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost. However, the Holy Ghost will not dwell in unholy temples (1 Corinthians 3:16-17). If we are not fulfilling God’s will, His Spirit can depart from us. The Sacrament of the Lord’s Supper is the means whereby we constantly renew our covenant with God, and keep Him and His sacrifice in remembrance, which enables us to retain a remission of our sins, and makes us worthy of the continued presence of His Spirit. The Mormon sacramental prayers are instructive here.

 

[KathleenGee]

Zerinus…sounds like your beliefs are very similar now to Catholicism.

When I read parts of the Covenants by Smith, it had a very different take and perspective.

 

[zerinus]

Zerinus…sounds like your beliefs are very similar now to Catholicism.

Most of the doctrines are in fact the same, but expressed in different words. But there are also some fundamental differences, such as on infant baptisms and the effects of the Fall.

When I read parts of the Covenants by Smith, it had a very different take and perspective.

I have said nothing that disagrees with what Joseph Smith taught.

 

[KathleenGee]

I see a change in how you are referencing Catholic sources, more in depth.

 

[zerinus]

I see a change in how you are referencing Catholic sources, more in depth.

I have always done that, or tried to. I try to do that with any source, not just Catholic ones.

 

[SteveVH]

All baptism is baptism of repentance, as attested by the scriptures cited.

The scriptures you gave were mainly concerning the baptism by John the Baptist and there is a difference which I have already pointed out. I am happy to accept this as a difference in our beliefs. Now we have a reference point in our discussions. Thank you.

Baptism of water is for the remission of sins.

Yes. And newness of life throuh the sanctifying grace of the Holy Spirit.

The baptism of Spirit, the baptism of fire and Holy Ghost, comes by a separate sacrament of laying on of hands.

In the Catholic faith, we also receive the Holy Spirit in the sacrament of Confirmation, but it is a strengthening of the gift we received in baptism. We receive seven specific gifts from the Holy Spirit which help us live out our Christian life.

Well, they could be acting in hypocrisy, as some do; or as some Pharisees who went to John’s baptism did.

Yes they could. Only God truly knows their hearts.

Here is where we totally disagree. Infants are redeemed unconditionally by the Atonement of Jesus Christ from the original sin, and they are “alive in Christ form the foundation of the world” (Moroni 8:12).

Yes, zerinus, you keep repeating this. I understand that this is what you believe and, again, am willing to accept this as a difference in our beliefs. Again, at least we know this difference. As you are aware, we would completely disagree.

Our theology of the Eucharist, or what we call the Sacrament, is a bit different from yours. At confirmation, through the sacrament of the laying on of hands, we receive the “gift of the Holy Ghost,” which is the right of the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost. However, the Holy Ghost will not dwell in unholy temples (1 Corinthians 3:16-17). If we are not fulfilling God’s will, His Spirit can depart from us. The Sacrament of the Lord’s Supper is the means whereby we constantly renew our covenant with God, and keep Him and His sacrifice in remembrance, which enables us to retain a remission of our sins, and makes us worthy of the continued presence of His Spirit. The Mormon sacramental prayers are instructive here.

Well, one thing we would have in common is that fact that we can loose our state of grace and therefore must “persevere to the end” with the help of the Holy Spirit. Our view concerning the nature of Eucharist and its entire purpose would be miles apart, however, but that is a subject for a different thread.