Mormons: How do you define a "Sacrament"?

[SteveVH]

Not at all. That is not what I said or implied. You ought to know by now that baptism in Mormonism is a true sacrament that is necessary for salvation. You are distorting what I said or believe in order to promote your own. That suggests that you do not have confidence in the correctness of your own position otherwise you would not need to do that.

You know, my head is just spinning at this point. I have gone out of my way to remain charitable and to answer each and every one of your questions with some thoughtfulness. If I have drawn a wrong conclusion to your comments, all you have to do is point it out without the additional nasty commentary. Obviously, your comments reminded me very much of the Protestant view of the purpose of baptism; they focus on man’s worthiness rather than God’s free gift. After reading it again I would draw the same conclusion as before. As to your last few comments, you would do well to direct them toward yourself.

Firstly, there is a connection. They highlight the necessity of repentance as a prerequisite for forgiveness. You ultimately obtain forgiveness through repentance, and baptism without repentance will not bring forgiveness. Secondly, those were not the verses I had in mind. These were the verses I had in mind…

I will not fall for the tactic that involves voluminous quotations in place of substance. One or two would suffice and if that doesn’t seem to be enough than one or two more. In the case above these verses concern the need for repentance which I have never denied. What I have denied is that repentance is a necessary prerequisite for baptism, as the subject concerned infant baptism.
zerinus;7266188:

What you appear to be ignorant of is that repentance is a necessary prerequisite for forgiveness, or remission of sins, hence of baptism.

You are truly amazing.

What is foreign to a Mormon? Why are you making unsubstantiated allegations against Mormonism that have nothing to do with the topic under discussion? It suggests that your theological position is coming great strain, and you are running out of valid answers.

The sacrament of Reconciliation is foreign to Mormonism. As for your derogatory comments, I will let the viewers of this thread decide who’s theological position is strained.

I cited them because you seemed to be questioning that repentance is a prerequisite for forgiveness.

Only concerning baptism, zerinus, and you know that as we have discussed this at length. This is becoming akin to trying to described a sunset to a blind man.

Yes, that is what you actually said in another thread. Here is your quote:

I will stand by everything I have said in that quote as well as everything I have said in this thread.

And by the time I reached here I got bored replying to your post, and I am going to leave it at that at least for now.

Well I certainly don’t want to bore you zerinus.

 

[Ceil-1]

It’s not you, Steve. You did a fabulous job, and you understood it perfectly.

Read his other posts. He works people up, then tries to act the innocent. I really don’t know who he thinks he’s fooling. . He’s slick, but, it only goes so far. Not a good representative of his faith, though. I wonder if his superiors know what he’s up to.

 

[zerinus]

I think that Mormonism really is different and outside the chronological and licit development of Christianity evolved from the Apostolic Church. So different…

I agree that Mormonism represents a new Christian tradition, and is outside the historical evolution of traditional Christianity. That is because historical Christianity went off the rails early on in its history, and is not a recognizable continuation of that tradition. Mormonism is a restoration of the original form of Christianity, with true prophets and Apostles as in the early days; therefore it is not surprising that it looks different from present day form of evolved Christianity.

 

[zerinus]

The sacrament of Reconciliation is foreign to Mormonism.

Well, you are right that we don’t call it a sacrament; but a Mormon who has sinned can go to his bishop, confess his sins, and depending on the gravity of the sin and circumstances of the case, and the inspiration of the bishop, he can impose disciplinary measures on the sinner until his repentance is complete and his sin is forgiven. I don’t know what you would call that, but that is what happens in Mormonism.

As for your derogatory comments, I will let the viewers of this thread decide who’s theological position is strained.

Agreed! I am willing to leave it up to their judgements.

 

[zerinus]

Not a good representative of his faith, though. I wonder if his superiors know what he’s up to.

LOL! At least you are amusing. That is more than I can say about a lot of the folks round here.

 

[Marie5890]

Mormons dont have “sacraments” in the way that Catholics view a “sacrament”…

With the possible exception of “confirmation” where Mormons do believe the Holy Ghost is given…

They do, however, like Catholics, make covenants…

Mormonism is very convenantal …

Catholicism is both “sacramental” and “covenantal”

 

[zerinus]

Mormons dont have “sacraments” in the way that Catholics view a “sacrament”…

With the possible exception of “confirmation” where Mormons do believe the Holy Ghost is given…

They do, however, like Catholics, make covenants…

Mormonism is very convenantal …

Catholicism is both “sacramental” and “covenantal”

Mormonism is more sacramental and has more sacraments than the Catholic Church does.

 

[Marie5890]

Mormonism is more sacramental and has more sacraments than the Catholic Church does.

Will you please define what you mean by “sacramental” in the Mormon sense (when I was LDS there was never talk about a sense of being sacramental)

Tell me how many you think the LDS church has

and tell me how you define “sacramental” in the Catholic sense

I want to see who you view it and define it and understand it…

I have lived both…

The word that is tossed around when I was LDS was “covenant” not “sacrament”

 

[SteveVH]

I am here to debate theology, not attack individuals or their religions. But when somebody constantly shifts their positions, or claim they said things they didn’t, or didn’t say things when they did, or go off the beaten track and talk of things unrelated to the topic, it does, to put it mildly, gets to be “boring” after a while.

As for the rest of your comments, as I said, I am interested in discussing religion, theology and the gospel. I am not interested in attacking anyone personally, or their religions for that matter, which is exactly what you are doing. And I am not interested in replying to such attacks either. The assumption must be that you have no valid arguments to bring against Mormonism, otherwise you would.

The entire purpose of this thread was an honest effort to learn something from you as to your definition of a sacrament and explain the Catholic position in order to facilitate further discussion elsewhere. I actually believed that if we understood each other’s definitions we might actually be able to communicate. I now know that this is an impossibility with you.

zerinus, you can claim whatever you want to claim but the fact is that the posters on this forum have a brain and can see for themselves whether or not you constantly engage in personal attacks and put downs or whether you are actually here to engage in civil discussion in a spirit of seeking truth. I don’t know what kind of game you think you are playing but I have had enough. When you want to get serious, I’ll be happy to participate again.

 

[SteveVH]

Well, you are right that we don’t call it a sacrament; but a Mormon who has sinned can go to his bishop, confess his sins, and depending on the gravity of the sin and circumstances of the case, and the inspiration of the bishop, he can impose disciplinary measures on the sinner until his repentance is complete and his sin is forgiven. I don’t know what you would call that, but that is what happens in Mormonism.

Do you make this a regular practice, confessing your sins to your bishop? When was the last time? To make it fair, I just went to confession a week ago and come very close to doing this on a monthly basis. I do this because I am a sinner in need of forgiveness and REPENTANCE. And you have the gall to lecture me on this subject. My bet is that you have never gone to your bishop to confess your sins, but, of course, I could be wrong. The main difference is that I don’t go to confession to receive disciplinary measures from my priest, I go to receive forgiveness and be reconciled to God.

 

[Marie5890]

The entire purpose of this thread was an honest effort to learn something from you as to your definition of a sacrament and explain the Catholic position in order to facilitate further discussion elsewhere. I actually believed that if we understood each other’s definitions we might actually be able to communicate. I now know that this is an impossibility with you.

zerinus, you can claim whatever you want to claim but the fact is that the posters on this forum have a brain and can see for themselves whether or not you constantly engage in personal attacks and put downs or whether you are actually here to engage in civil discussion in a spirit of seeking truth. I don’t know what kind of game you think you are playing but I have had enough. When you want to get serious, I’ll be happy to participate again.

Mormonism does NOT claim to be a sacramental religion. It claims convenantal religion.

You dont hear the word “sacrament” within its walls…You hear the word “covenant”

 

[Marie5890]

Do you make this a regular practice, confessing your sins to your bishop? When was the last time? To make it fair, I just went to confession a week ago and come very close to doing this on a monthly basis. I do this because I am a sinner in need of forgiveness and REPENTANCE. And you have the gall to lecture me on this subject. My bet is that you have never gone to your bishop to confess your sins, but, of course, I could be wrong. The main difference is that I don’t go to confession to receive disciplinary measures from my priest, I go to receive forgiveness and be reconciled to God.

Mormons will confess serious sins (those that would make them “temple UNworthy”) to their bishop (ie Breaking the WoW, Law of Chastity, not paying their tithing would fall under this)

The idea of regular “confession” does not exist in Mormon mind-think…Only that which would deprive you of being able to worthily hold a temple recommend

It’s not seen as a “sacrament”…Not sure where Zerinus is taking this thread…

Mormons consider themselves “covenantal” not “sacramental”

I’ve live both…I know the different…the difference are very clear…

They are VERY different

 

[Marie5890]

(Just so it’s very clear as to where I am coming from and my LDS background…Not only have I been thru the temple and taking out/making what Mormons would consider “my endowments” I have served in such positions as Relief Society President, Sunday School teacher, RS teacher yada yada yada…IE I KNOW what I am talking about as I was a devout Mormon)

 

[ParkerD]

(Just so it’s very clear as to where I am coming from and my LDS background…Not only have I been thru the temple and taking out/making what Mormons would consider “my endowments” I have served in such positions as Relief Society President, Sunday School teacher, RS teacher yada yada yada…IE I KNOW what I am talking about as I was a devout Mormon)

Marie5890,

Early on in this thread, Zerinus had the following comment so that the word “sacrament” as used by Catholics (and as defined in a dictionary or an encyclopedia) could be related to the LDS experience. Just because we don’t call “ordinances” the word “sacraments”, does not mean they don’t bear similarity to the idea conveyed in a Catholic or Protestant use of the word “sacrament”.

So here was Zerinus’ comment:

“A sacrament (or ordinance as we would call it) is a rite, a ritual, that is performed by the authority of the priesthood. It has a set procedure that must be followed, and it must be performed by the authority of the priesthood for it to be valid. Catholics use different words to define a sacrament, but in essence it means more or less the same thing. The biggest difference probably is that you believe that priesthood authority may not always be necessary to perform some of the sacraments, such as baptism for example in an emergency. But from our point of view priesthood authority is indispensable for the performance of sacraments. There are no exceptions.”

I would add that a “sacrament” is indeed often considered a “covenant” (though not always since there is administration and anointing of the sick), but it is an eternal covenant that the person is saying they will not break, forever–that they have chosen to make with God.

It seems to me that every LDS ordinance or covenant involves an “outward sign of a grace conveyed by God through a covenant between the person and God”, so that would make them “sacraments”. Thus, there are more of those in LDS beliefs than in Catholic beliefs.

 

[zerinus]

Do you make this a regular practice, confessing your sins to your bishop?

No we don’t. We confess to the bishop sins that needs to be confessed. All sins do not need to be confessed to an ecclesiastical officer. Minor sins can be confessed to God, and provided we repent God is merciful and will forgive our sins. Our conscience tells us when we have committed a sin that needs to be confessed to the bishop.

When was the last time?

Long time ago actually. Since then I haven’t done anything wrong serious enough that needs to be confessed to the bishop.

To make it fair, I just went to confession a week ago and come very close to doing this on a monthly basis. I do this because I am a sinner in need of forgiveness and REPENTANCE.

Well, I don’t know what things you do wrong that needs to be confessed that often! LOL! And “repentance” is something that comes from you, not from your priest.

And you have the gall to lecture me on this subject.

That is why I find debating with you such a frustrating thing. Can you show me where I have “lectured you on this subject”?

My bet is that you have never gone to your bishop to confess your sins, but, of course, I could be wrong.

I have, but I don’t go there every weekend. LOL!

The main difference is that I don’t go to confession to receive disciplinary measures from my priest, I go to receive forgiveness and be reconciled to God.

Same here. But don’t you have “penance” in your church? Here are some definitions of penance I have found on the Internet:

1. voluntary self-punishment to atone for a sin, crime, etc.
2. a feeling of regret for one’s wrongdoings
3. (Christianity / Ecclesiastical Terms) Christianity
   a. a punishment usually consisting of prayer, fasting, etc., undertaken voluntarily as an expression of penitence for sin
   b. a punishment of this kind imposed by church authority as a condition of absolution Source

1. An act of self-mortification or devotion performed voluntarily to show sorrow for a sin or other wrongdoing.
2. A sacrament in some Christian churches that includes contrition, confession to a priest, acceptance of punishment, and absolution. Also called reconciliation. Source

1. Repentance.
   **2. Pain; sorrow; suffering.
2. A means of repairing a sin committed, and obtaining pardon for it, consisting partly in the performance of expiatory rites, partly in voluntary submission to a punishment corresponding to the transgression. Penance is the fourth of seven sacraments in the Roman Catholic Church.
   e.g. To impose penance; to punish.** Source

1. a punishment undergone in token of penitence for sin.
2. a penitential discipline imposed by church authority.
3. a sacrament, as in the Roman Catholic Church, consisting in a confession of sin, made with sorrow and with the intention of amendment, followed by the forgiveness of the sin. Source

I could swear that you don’t really know your own religion very well.

 

[zerinus]

Marie5890,

Early on in this thread, Zerinus had the following comment so that the word “sacrament” as used by Catholics (and as defined in a dictionary or an encyclopedia) could be related to the LDS experience. Just because we don’t call “ordinances” the word “sacraments”, does not mean they don’t bear similarity to the idea conveyed in a Catholic or Protestant use of the word “sacrament”.

So here was Zerinus’ comment:

“A sacrament (or ordinance as we would call it) is a rite, a ritual, that is performed by the authority of the priesthood. It has a set procedure that must be followed, and it must be performed by the authority of the priesthood for it to be valid. Catholics use different words to define a sacrament, but in essence it means more or less the same thing. The biggest difference probably is that you believe that priesthood authority may not always be necessary to perform some of the sacraments, such as baptism for example in an emergency. But from our point of view priesthood authority is indispensable for the performance of sacraments. There are no exceptions.”

I would add that a “sacrament” is indeed often considered a “covenant” (though not always since there is administration and anointing of the sick), but it is an eternal covenant that the person is saying they will not break, forever–that they have chosen to make with God.

It seems to me that every LDS ordinance or covenant involves an “outward sign of a grace conveyed by God through a covenant between the person and God”, so that would make them “sacraments”. Thus, there are more of those in LDS beliefs than in Catholic beliefs.

Thank you Parker for coming to my help with that. It does get frustrating having to repeat the same thing over and over again. However, I think it would be a mistake to define “sacrament” in terms of “covenant”. It is true that some sacraments are “covenantal” in nature, like baptism. Even Catholics regard baptism as kind of new covenant with God. But I think it would be inaccurate and confusing to define sacrament in general as a covenant. I would rather keep the two definitions separate from each other.

 

[Marie5890]

Marie5890,

Early on in this thread, Zerinus had the following comment so that the word “sacrament” as used by Catholics (and as defined in a dictionary or an encyclopedia) could be related to the LDS experience. Just because we don’t call “ordinances” the word “sacraments”, does not mean they don’t bear similarity to the idea conveyed in a Catholic or Protestant use of the word “sacrament”.

So here was Zerinus’ comment:

“A sacrament (or ordinance as we would call it) is a rite, a ritual, that is performed by the authority of the priesthood. It has a set procedure that must be followed, and it must be performed by the authority of the priesthood for it to be valid. Catholics use different words to define a sacrament, but in essence it means more or less the same thing. The biggest difference probably is that you believe that priesthood authority may not always be necessary to perform some of the sacraments, such as baptism for example in an emergency. But from our point of view priesthood authority is indispensable for the performance of sacraments. There are no exceptions.”

I would add that a “sacrament” is indeed often considered a “covenant” (though not always since there is administration and anointing of the sick), but it is an eternal covenant that the person is saying they will not break, forever–that they have chosen to make with God.

It seems to me that every LDS ordinance or covenant involves an “outward sign of a grace conveyed by God through a covenant between the person and God”, so that would make them “sacraments”. Thus, there are more of those in LDS beliefs than in Catholic beliefs.

Mmm. Disagree.

Mormons dont believe in orignal sin so Mormon baptism doesn’t have the same “sacramental” effect of infusing of grace as Catholics and other Christians believe.

Same to be said with Mormon ordaining of priesthood as oppose to Holy Orders, Sacrament of Reconcilation and Matrimony…

I think the idea Confirmation is similar since the idea of receiving the Holy Spirit is similar.

Catholics have the Sacrament of Baptism, Eucharist, Confirmation, Reconcilation, Holy Orders, Matrimony and Anointiing of the Sick

Mormons have the Ordinance of Baptism, Confirmation, Marriage, Priesthood, Anointing of the sick

Zerinus said there are more sacraments in LDS theology. Bull.

Partaking of the sacrament in the LDS church has never been taught that grace is imparted. Confession to a bishop for sins that would make someone temple unworthy is also not taught that grace is imparted.

The idea of sacramental grace even exists is pretty foreign to LDS theology.

The idea of ordaining LDS boys and men to the Mormon ideal of priesthood also lacks the idea of grace imparted. Authority, yes, but not grace.

Same with anointing of the sick. The idea of grace infused is lacking

LDS sealings? Yes in Mormon theology their priesthood seals them, but not infusing of grace occurs

Sorry. The Mormon idea of ordinances and the Catholic idea of Sacramental graces being infused simply are not even close to be in the same thing.

 

[Marie5890]

Thank you Parker for coming to my help with that. It does get frustrating having to repeat the same thing over and over again. However, I think it would be a mistake to define “sacrament” in terms of “covenant”. It is true that some sacraments are “covenantal” in nature, like baptism. Even Catholics regard baptism as kind of new covenant with God. But I think it would be inaccurate and confusing to define sacrament in general as a covenant. I would rather keep the two definitions separate from each other.

Agree completely Zerinus.

One of the main differences is the the idea of sacraments is that a sacramental grace (power) is infused during the rite. Its not just a ritual of outward appearance.

Catholics believe in actual grace and they believe in sanctifying grace.

Mormons dont have that kind of concept

 

[Marie5890]

Parker…

Im taking it for granted that you realize that there is a vast difference in what “grace” is to the Mormon prism and what “grace” is to the Catholic prism

They are not even close to being the same theological idea…

 

[zerinus]

Agree completely Zerinus.

One of the main differences is the the idea of sacraments is that a sacramental grace (power) is infused during the rite. Its not just a ritual of outward appearance.

Catholics believe in actual grace and they believe in sanctifying grace.

Mormons dont have that kind of concept

Yes they do, except they don’t call it “grace”. We believe that baptism actually remits one’s sins, and makes us a member of God’s kingdom on earth. That is “grace”. We believe that the rite of bestowing the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands actually bestows the Holy Ghost, which is something real. That is “grace”. We believe that ordination to the priesthood actually gives us the priesthood, something that is invisible but real and powerful. That is grace. Catholics have just developed different terminologies for the same concepts. But the concepts are basically the same.