Mormons: How do you define a "Sacrament"?

[KathleenGee]

Something I am beginning to have an impression of is Mormons studying our faith to a ‘t’, organizing from our thought processes, improvising theirs and then claiming these indepth presentation of faith is Mormon…it is standardizing and using Catholic thought to improve itself.

I saw old texts from the 1840 to 1860’s, and the thought process today in Mormonism is very different. I know there are denominations that are obsessed with the Catholic Church and want to compete with it.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Something I am beginning to have an impression of is Mormons studying our faith to a ‘t’, organizing from our thought processes, improvising theirs and then claiming these indepth presentation of faith is Mormon…it is standardizing and using Catholic thought to improve itself.

I saw old texts from the 1840 to 1860’s, and the thought process today in Mormonism is very different. I know there are denominations that are obsessed with the Catholic Church and want to compete with it.

They keep doing it long enough eventually they’ll be Catholic.

Some people around these parts call the LDS campus of properties in downtown SLC, which includes temple square, the “Mormon Vatican”.

 

[KathleenGee]

Yes, that is an interesting insight…the standardization will continue…

 

[zaffiroborant]

Something I am beginning to have an impression of is Mormons studying our faith to a ‘t’, organizing from our thought processes, improvising theirs and then claiming these indepth presentation of faith is Mormon…it is standardizing and using Catholic thought to improve itself.

.

I don’t see it as using it to improve Mormonism. They use it to say we’re not so different, see you believe in theosis, well that’s just exhaltation. There was an article that said that The Trinity and the LDS godhead are really the same thing.

Fortunately, there are contemporary Christian theologians, both Catholic and Protestant, who are attending more carefully to the biblical roots of Trinitarian doctrine and pruning away the dead branches of outdated Greek metaphysics that have long damaged its health. Many of these identify themselves with what has come to be called the “social model of the Trinity” or, simply, “social Trinitarianism.” According to this model, the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are perfectly unified in love and purpose, wholly transparent and open to one another, inseparable but distinct centers of consciousness and personality.

While this isn’t quite the Latter-day Saint concept of a Godhead comprising three anthropomorphic beings, it’s considerably closer than the model worked out, under the influence of ancient pagan Middle Platonic ideas that have long since dropped out of fashion everywhere but in creedal Christendom,

Funny thing here Catholicism is part of “creedal Christendom”.
You can read the whole article here This is not trying to improve Mormonism it is saying we believe the same things all the while knowing that our beliefs are not the same. Why would they do this?

 

[KathleenGee]

I don’t have the time to go into indepth analysis…want to…but I am beginning to see something…and it is giving me something to learn more…

It is like Mormonism is now trying to become intellectual, philosophical, employ reason…you go through all the layers, and it is creating a different image of Mormonism…but is it really an image of itself created for us? Or are those in conversion to Mormonism now having to go through that many more steps…and then after their initiation into their religion, one by one the shades come off, and then they are back at the core beliefs…then do people stay or do they leave???

I mean, Mormonism is becoming more sophisticated, drawing itself out of isolation and attempting to build dialogue with us…but also using it as a learning tool to modify the extremes of early writings and beliefs.

 

[ParkerD]

Parker…

Im taking it for granted that you realize that there is a vast difference in what “grace” is to the Mormon prism and what “grace” is to the Catholic prism

They are not even close to being the same theological idea…

Marie5890,

I agree with what Zerinus already wrote about the concept of “sacrament” as it relates to the concept of “grace”.

I might as well note that LDS certainly do have a use in the Book of Mormon of the word “grace” that implies either “actual grace” or “sanctifying grace”–but I agree that LDS don’t specify which kind of grace is being talked about, and that the word “grace” itself is not used very often in current-day LDS talks or articles–but is used more extensively in the Book of Mormon than that current-day use.

Here is the Catholic Encyclopedia basic description of “actual grace”–
“we may define actual grace as a supernatural help of God for salutary acts granted in consideration of the merits of Christ.”

Here is a brief explanation distinguishing what “sanctifying grace” is–
“The climax of the presentation of the nature of sanctifying grace is found in its character as a participation in the Divine nature, which in a measure indicates its specific difference. To this undeniable fact of the supernatural participation in the Divine nature is our attention directed not only by the express words of Holy Writ: ut efficiamini divinoe consortes naturoe; (II Pet., i, 4), but also by the Biblical concept of “the issue and birth from God”, since the begotten must receive of the nature of the progenitor, though in this case it only holds in an accidental and analogical sense.”

I would say that “sanctifying grace” is conveyed in the following Book of Mormon verses by Moroni (not saying it’s a perfect match to the Catholic concept, but has a similarity):

Moro. 10: 32-33
32 Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.
33 And again, if ye by the grace of God are perfect in Christ, and deny not his power, then are ye sanctified in Christ by the grace of God, through the shedding of the blood of Christ, which is in the covenant of the Father unto the remission of your sins, that ye become holy, without spot.

It seems to me that “actual grace” is conveyed in the following Book of Mormon verses where the word “grace” is used:

Ether 12: 26-27, 36, 41
26 And when I had said this, the Lord spake unto me, saying: Fools mock, but they shall mourn; and my grace is sufficient for the meek, that they shall take no advantage of your weakness;
27 And if men come unto me I will show unto them their weakness. I give unto men weakness that they may be humble; and my grace is sufficient for all men that humble themselves before me; for if they humble themselves before me, and have faith in me, then will I make weak things become strong unto them.
• • •
36 And it came to pass that I prayed unto the Lord that he would give unto the Gentiles grace, that they might have charity.
• • •
41 And now, I would commend you to seek this Jesus of whom the prophets and apostles have written, that the grace of God the Father, and also the Lord Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost, which beareth record of them, may be and abide in you forever. Amen.

Mosiah 18: 16, 26
16 And after this manner he did baptize every one that went forth to the place of Mormon; and they were in number about two hundred and four souls; yea, and they were baptized in the waters of Mormon, and were filled with the grace of God.
• • •
26 And the priests were not to depend upon the people for their support; but for their labor they were to receive the grace of God, that they might wax strong in the Spirit, having the knowledge of God, that they might teach with power and authority from God.

Hel. 12: 24
24 And may God grant, in his great fulness, that men might be brought unto repentance and good works, that they might be restored unto grace for grace, according to their works.

Jacob 4: 7
7 Nevertheless, the Lord God showeth us our weakness that we may know that it is by his grace, and his great condescensions unto the children of men, that we have power to do these things.

Mosiah 27: 5
5 Yea, and all their priests and teachers should labor with their own hands for their support, in all cases save it were in sickness, or in much want; and doing these things, they did abound in the grace of God.

The Book of Mormon says it better than I would be able to do. Peace to you and all.

 

[Marie5890]

Yes they do, except they don’t call it “grace”. We believe that baptism actually remits one’s sins, and makes us a member of God’s kingdom on earth. That is “grace”. We believe that the rite of bestowing the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands actually bestows the Holy Ghost, which is something real. That is “grace”. We believe that ordination to the priesthood actually gives us the priesthood, something that is invisible but real and powerful. That is grace. Catholics have just developed different terminologies for the same concepts. But the concepts are basically the same.

Zerinus I appreciate that fact that you know your own faith so well, but your understanding of “grace” as taught by Catholicism is in error…

As understandable as it is you are filtering the idea of it thru your Mormon prism which leads you to misunderstand what it really is…

The idea of the grace that is infused during the sacraments as administered thru the Catholic church is not the same as going thru the rites of Mormonism

Mormonism is covenantal, but it is not sacramental.

I

 

[Marie5890]

Something I am beginning to have an impression of is Mormons studying our faith to a ‘t’, organizing from our thought processes, improvising theirs and then claiming these indepth presentation of faith is Mormon…it is standardizing and using Catholic thought to improve itself.

I saw old texts from the 1840 to 1860’s, and the thought process today in Mormonism is very different. I know there are denominations that are obsessed with the Catholic Church and want to compete with it.

Yes Kathleen that is indeed a very real problem…

It something I ran into personally time and time again as I became Catholic. I had come to realize that I was trying to understand Catholicism thru my Mormon prism which was causing me to misunderstand what real Catholic teaching was.

Its understandable and a very human thing to do. We can only begin to try and understand anything by where we are at at that moment…

I had to be conscience of when “Mormon thinking” was showing up in my though processes…Even to this day I am aware when my old residual prism pops up…But it took awhile for me to even be aware of it…

The idea of grace as taught by the Catholic church has no real equivelncy in Mormonism even if it looks like it “may”. It simply doesnt.

 

[ParkerD]

Mormonism is covenantal, but it is not sacramental.

Marie5890,

As a result of your insistence, I found the following definition/explanation in the Catholic Encyclopedia:

"Sacramentals.—In instituting the sacraments Christ did not determine the matter and form down to the slightest detail, leaving this task to the Church, which should determine what rites were suitable in the administration of the sacraments. These rites are indicated by the word Sacramentalia, the object of which is to manifest the respect due to the sacrament and to secure the sanctification of the faithful. They belong to widely different categories, e.g.: substance, in the mingling of water with Eucharistic wine; quantity, in the triple baptismal effusion; quality, in the condition of unleavened bread; relation, in the capacity of the minister; time and place, in feast-days and churches; habit, in the liturgical vestments; posture, in genuflexion, prostrations; action, in chanting etc. So many external conditions connect the sacramentals with the virtue of religion, their object being indicated by the Council of Trent (Sess. XXII, 15), that it is asserted that apart from their ancient origin and traditional maintenance ceremonies, blessings, lights, incense etc. enhance the dignity of the Holy Sacrifice and arouse the piety of the faithful. Moreover the sacramentals help to distinguish the members of the Church from heretics, who have done away with the sacramentals or use them arbitrarily and with little intelligence.

Sacramental rites are dependent on the Church which established them, and which therefore has the right to maintain, develop, modify, or abrogate them."

So of course the LDS church doesn’t use the word “sacramental” in the way the Catholic church uses that word, since the Catholic church placed themselves in charge of the word and makes “sacramental rites dependent on the Church which established them”, and is solely responsible for the meaning within that particular internal context, and the “right to maintain, develop, modify, or abrogate” the meaning or the sacramental rites.

In other words, the source of the context is not the Bible, but the Catholic church as an institution apart from the Bible, by the very definition shown above.

 

[Marie5890]

Marie5890,

As a result of your insistence, I found the following definition/explanation in the Catholic Encyclopedia:

"Sacramentals.—In instituting the sacraments Christ did not determine the matter and form down to the slightest detail, leaving this task to the Church, which should determine what rites were suitable in the administration of the sacraments. These rites are indicated by the word Sacramentalia, the object of which is to manifest the respect due to the sacrament and to secure the sanctification of the faithful. They belong to widely different categories, e.g.: substance, in the mingling of water with Eucharistic wine; quantity, in the triple baptismal effusion; quality, in the condition of unleavened bread; relation, in the capacity of the minister; time and place, in feast-days and churches; habit, in the liturgical vestments; posture, in genuflexion, prostrations; action, in chanting etc. So many external conditions connect the sacramentals with the virtue of religion, their object being indicated by the Council of Trent (Sess. XXII, 15), that it is asserted that apart from their ancient origin and traditional maintenance ceremonies, blessings, lights, incense etc. enhance the dignity of the Holy Sacrifice and arouse the piety of the faithful. Moreover the sacramentals help to distinguish the members of the Church from heretics, who have done away with the sacramentals or use them arbitrarily and with little intelligence.

Sacramental rites are dependent on the Church which established them, and which therefore has the right to maintain, develop, modify, or abrogate them."

So of course the LDS church doesn’t use the word “sacramental” in the way the Catholic church uses that word, since the Catholic church placed themselves in charge of the word and makes “sacramental rites dependent on the Church which established them”, and is solely responsible for the meaning within that particular internal context, and the “right to maintain, develop, modify, or abrogate” the meaning or the sacramental rites.

In other words, the source of the context is not the Bible, but the Catholic church as an institution apart from the Bible, by the very definition shown above.

Parker this definition is talking about sacramentals as in the objects/nouns

the sacraments are not sacramentals (both words used as nouns here)

When I say the Catholic church is “sacramental” I am using it as an adjective…

The seven sacraments are baptism, Eucharist, Confirmation, Reconcilation, marriage, Holy Orders, Anointing of the Sick.

If my use of “sacramental” as an adjective I apologize.

Sacramentals as a noun would be things like Holy water, rosarys, statues, medals etc etc

Thanks for providing me the opportunity to clarify the difference between sacramental as adjective and sacramental as noun.

The Sacraments bestow grace when they are administered
Sacramentals do NOT bestow grace, they are simply reminders

 

[KathleenGee]

Hi Marie,

Seeing through prism or filters is also what the Muslims do in trying to understand our Scriptures and Christ.

I noticed when I posted on the LDS cathedral going up in Rome, I had alot of hits to my home page…and assumed alot were Mormons…I assume that…because I have the real impression of Mormonism of studying Catholicism very deeply, to understand it through the variety of people here…and to glean from it and then go back to their own people, with their prisms and filters, and lead them further away from the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ to the point that I feel we are being used to then blaspheme the Lord in the Eucharist.

I see a Mormon tank coming into CAF, going across this minefield of Catholic answers, posts, threads, getting hits but turning away, evading, avoiding, not listening to reason, to history…and the arguments are circular and I find, mostly evasive or redefining history.

And then the tank retreats and goes back to the Mormon sites and then blasts us from there…but the false teaching is denying the Mormon people the opportunity to receive Jesus in His fullness. The tank is working hard to keep Mormon people from Jesus. I do not see Catholic blogs – yet – working so hard to keep Catholics from Mormonism.

When people come on here to debate and then turn around and defame the Eucharist, then I am not only incensed, but my faith in the Eucharist blasphemed and violated…I was spiritually wounded all day.

And it is annoying to see Mormons try to talk like Catholics considering the old books they used. Seeing what happened yesterday, I am not allowing myself and my faith to be used against me on another blog especially when it regards the centrality of our Catholic faith – the Eucharist. Here my tolerance and diplomacy leaves.

 

[SteveVH]

No we don’t. We confess to the bishop sins that needs to be confessed. All sins do not need to be confessed to an ecclesiastical officer. Minor sins can be confessed to God, and provided we repent God is merciful and will forgive our sins. Our conscience tells us when we have committed a sin that needs to be confessed to the bishop.

So, minor sins need to be confessed to God but the really big ones need to be confessed to your bishop. I’m glad that makes sense to you.

Long time ago actually. Since then I haven’t done anything wrong serious enough that needs to be confessed to the bishop.

And your canonization is to take place when?

Well, I don’t know what things you do wrong that needs to be confessed that often! LOL! And “repentance” is something that comes from you, not from your priest.

Well, you know us Catholics, we are particularly nasty people, very unlike the saintly Mormons.

That is why I find debating with you such a frustrating thing. Can you show me where I have “lectured you on this subject”?

Oh I don’t know. How about your last twenty posts.

I have, but I don’t go there every weekend. LOL!

Well keep on laughing zerinus. I’m sure your sins are so mild that you need no forgiveness. I just hope God feels the same way when you go to meet Him.

Same here. But don’t you have “penance” in your church? Here are some definitions of penance I have found on the Internet…

You know, I really should just ask you what I believe as a Catholic since you have such an in-depth understanding of Catholicism.

I could swear that you don’t really know your own religion very well.

Thanks z… Another example of you “not making personal attacks”.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Hi Marie,

Seeing through prism or filters is also what the Muslims do in trying to understand our Scriptures and Christ.

I noticed when I posted on the LDS cathedral going up in Rome, I had alot of hits to my home page…and assumed alot were Mormons…I assume that…because I have the real impression of Mormonism of studying Catholicism very deeply, to understand it through the variety of people here…and to glean from it and then go back to their own people, with their prisms and filters, and lead them further away from the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ to the point that I feel we are being used to then blaspheme the Lord in the Eucharist.

I see a Mormon tank coming into CAF, going across this minefield of Catholic answers, posts, threads, getting hits but turning away, evading, avoiding, not listening to reason, to history…and the arguments are circular and I find, mostly evasive or redefining history.

And then the tank retreats and goes back to the Mormon sites and then blasts us from there…but the false teaching is denying the Mormon people the opportunity to receive Jesus in His fullness. The tank is working hard to keep Mormon people from Jesus. I do not see Catholic blogs – yet – working so hard to keep Catholics from Mormonism.

When people come on here to debate and then turn around and defame the Eucharist, then I am not only incensed, but my faith in the Eucharist blasphemed and violated…I was spiritually wounded all day.

And it is annoying to see Mormons try to talk like Catholics considering the old books they used. Seeing what happened yesterday, I am not allowing myself and my faith to be used against me on another blog especially when it regards the centrality of our Catholic faith – the Eucharist. Here my tolerance and diplomacy leaves.

Yes, I agree with this. It is one of the reasons I have cut back on dialog with Mormons in general, including here. There isn’t a desire to understand, only to scheme ways in which to undermine the True Faith and become the chameleon that leads people away from truth. I find it very difficult to be a part of that.

 

[Marie5890]

I see a Mormon tank coming into CAF, going across this minefield of Catholic answers, posts, threads, getting hits but turning away, evading, avoiding, not listening to reason, to history…and the arguments are circular and I find, mostly evasive or redefining history.

And then the tank retreats and goes back to the Mormon sites and then blasts us from there…but the false teaching is denying the Mormon people the opportunity to receive Jesus in His fullness. The tank is working hard to keep Mormon people from Jesus. I do not see Catholic blogs – yet – working so hard to keep Catholics from Mormonism.

In a very general sense Mormons and Catholics dont speak the same “spiritual/religious language”

And even in a bigger sense, Mormons and traditional Christians dont really even speka the same “language”

Its why such confusions, frustrations, misunderstandings etc end up happening. The “language” spoken is very different.

It’s because those prisms/filters are extremely different.
I know trying to find a common ground even in Jesus Christ isnt really as “common” as one would think since the belief systems and understanding of His Very True Nature are so very different.

 

[KathleenGee]

Marie,

I think there are sincere Mormons here, don’t get me wrong.

But I also was having problems even following thought of this poster for many months and now see what the MO is.

I don’t even see how anyone looking for their religious/spiritual path could even follow the posts either, because it is a game to use us, to glean info, and then use our sincere sharing – atleast mine – to be used to invalidate the Eucharist, the summit of our faith, and the center of gathering for 2,000 years.

I just read some posts from Why Me…wondering why Catholics are reacting the way they do…If he could have seen the materials I saw, now removed from there…and this constant sense of competition with the Catholic Church, the ongoing denial of history and common sense, and staking people of other faiths to come into Mormonism, it really takes me to work on being self-effacing and patient.

But that day, reading their own materials, showed me I was walking the right spiritual walk. And it is also important as well to recognize and affirm the good Mormons do as well.

But yes, Rebecca, I can now see clearer and won’t participate. I also noted a jump in numbers for responding to the fellow letting us know about the Cathedral going up in Rome…and some body already wondering if he was a Mormon in disguise.

Oh, the fundamentalism at work in America, and how the Word of God is misused to bring about more divisions in the sacred Body of Christ.

Marie, yes…words and language mean different…but the Mormons use so many Catholic terms now…compared to the old texts of yesterday…Comprehend??? I was relunctant at the very beginning to even comment on a thread about Mormonism but was compelled to share what I had encountered. It was shocking and the materials even scared me. They did not represent Christ’s spirit…and all that ‘pssta’…phrase used repeatedly after statements…don’t know if it’s the correct spelling…

I am returning now to being relunctant commenting on Mormon threads and entering into a so-called debate or dialogue…don’t want to be used…

 

[Marie5890]

Kathleen,

A good Mormon will always be missionary minded. Even if they need to find ways of invalidating others…

Catholicism has a unique place for them because for a “restoration” to be needed, and there for the First Vision of Joseph Smith to hold any validity, Catholicism needs to be false. A falling away (great apostacy) had to happen.

So, in an effort to promote their mission of “spreading the gospel” they must needs be debate and prove Catholicism false…

Catholicism is something of a foil for them.
Your deliberating chosing not to be a foil is a prudent decision I have no doubt.

God Bless.

 

[zerinus]

Zerinus I appreciate that fact that you know your own faith so well, but your understanding of “grace” as taught by Catholicism is in error…

The Webster Dictionary defined the word “grace,” in the theological sense, as follows:

The divine favor toward man; the mercy of God, as distinguished from His justice; also, any benefits His mercy imparts; divine love or pardon; a state of acceptance with God; enjoyment of the divine favor.

And if by grace, then is it no more of works. - Rom. xi. 6.
My grace is sufficicnt for thee. - 2 Cor. xii. 9.
Where sin abounded, grace did much more abound. - Rom. v. 20. Source​

I don’t see anything in there that contradicts Mormonism. The word “grace” as it occurs in the New Testament is a translation of the Greek word charis (χαρις), which literally means “gift”—i.e. “free gift”. Being saved “by grace” means that salvation is a free gift from God, unmerited by any righteousness of our own. In LDS scripture the word grace occurs around 60 times, with exactly the same meaning as it is used in the New Testament. I don’t know what your definition of “grace” is, but that is the biblical and theological one.

As understandable as it is you are filtering the idea of it thru your Mormon prism which leads you to misunderstand what it really is…

What am I “filtering”? I accept the doctrine of grace as it is taught in the New testament, as explained above. It means the freely given, unmerited favor of God to man, through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, by which man is saved.

The idea of the grace that is infused during the sacraments as administered thru the Catholic church is not the same as going thru the rites of Mormonism

I don’t know of any scripture that talks about the “infusion” of grace. “Infusion” is what happens when you make tea! When you put tealeaves in a teapot, and pour boiling water into it, that is how you make an “infusion”. But how does the “infusion” of grace takes place? And where is the scriptural insight that supports it?

What you seem to be saying is that if I don’t believe in Catholicism I am not a Catholic! Well thanks for telling me. I hadn’t realized that until now.

Mormonism is covenantal, but it is not sacramental.

Mormonism is more sacramental than the Catholic Church is. It is more strict in its definition, and it has more of them than the Catholic Church does. Mormonism is the only Church that has more sacraments than the Catholic Church does. All the churches that have splintered off from Catholicism have reduced the number of the sacraments or eliminated them altogether. Mormonism is the only one that recognizes all the sacraments of Catholicism, and adds a few more in the bargain!

 

[zerinus]

So, minor sins need to be confessed to God but the really big ones need to be confessed to your bishop. I’m glad that makes sense to you.

And your canonization is to take place when?

Well, you know us Catholics, we are particularly nasty people, very unlike the saintly Mormons.

Oh I don’t know. How about your last twenty posts.

Well keep on laughing zerinus. I’m sure your sins are so mild that you need no forgiveness. I just hope God feels the same way when you go to meet Him.

You know, I really should just ask you what I believe as a Catholic since you have such an in-depth understanding of Catholicism.

Thanks z… Another example of you “not making personal attacks”.

No comment.

 

[Marie5890]

The Webster Dictionary defined the word “grace,” in the theological sense, as follows:

The divine favor toward man; the mercy of God, as distinguished from His justice; also, any benefits His mercy imparts; divine love or pardon; a state of acceptance with God; enjoyment of the divine favor.

And if by grace, then is it no more of works. - Rom. xi. 6.
My grace is sufficicnt for thee. - 2 Cor. xii. 9.
Where sin abounded, grace did much more abound. - Rom. v. 20. Source​

I don’t see anything in there that contradicts Mormonism. The word “grace” as it occurs in the New Testament is a translation of the Greek word charis (χαρις), which literally means “gift”—i.e. “free gift”. Being saved “by grace” means that salvation is a free gift from God, unmerited by any righteousness of our own. In LDS scripture the word grace occurs around 60 times, with exactly the same meaning as it is used in the New Testament. I don’t know what your definition of “grace” is, but that is the biblical and theological one.

What am I “filtering”? I accept the doctrine of grace as it is taught in the New testament, as explained above. It means the freely given, unmerited favor of God to man, through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, by which man is saved.

I don’t know of any scripture that talks about the “infusion” of grace. “Infusion” is what happens when you make tea! When you put tealeaves in a teapot, and pour boiling water into it, that is how you make an “infusion”. But how does the “infusion” of grace takes place? And where is the scriptural insight that supports it?

What you seem to be saying is that if I don’t believe in Catholicism I am not a Catholic! Well thanks for telling me. I hadn’t realized that until now.

Mormonism is more sacramental than the Catholic Church is. It is more strict in its definition, and it has more of them than the Catholic Church does. Mormonism is the only Church that has more sacraments than the Catholic Church does. All the churches that have splintered off from Catholicism have reduced the number of the sacraments or eliminated them altogether. Mormonism is the only one that recognizes all the sacraments of Catholicism, and adds a few more in the bargain!

Im not the foil you seek, Zerinus.

I understand the ways of Mormons and Mormonism too well.

Been there, lived that, done that, and was freed from it by the grace of God.

 

[zerinus]

Im not the foil you seek, Zerinus.

I understand the ways of Mormons and Mormonism too well.

Been there, lived that, done that, and was freed from it by the grace of God.

Sorry to disappoint you, but it seem to still have a lot to learn!