Mormons, I am confused about something

[RebeccaJ]

Interesting that this article too quotes Thomas Aquinus and St. Augustine…but not the quotes that I included.

Here’s the problem we are running into, Rebecca. In another thread I am being told that Tradition is as important to you as written scripture is; that they go hand in hand and that one is no more important than the other. Therefore quotes from people like Thomas Aquinus and Augustine are as important to your doctrine as the Book of Luke is.

…and hey, don’t yell at me about that, I had no idea that this was so until the conversations I’ve been having over the last few days.

Ok, abortion has never been seen as a glorious idea, but then I’ve never claimed that. However, the attitude of the church toward abortion has changed; sometimes seeing it as murder at all stages of pregnancy, sometimes seeing is as a lesser sin even than practicing birth control, sometimes seeing it as allowable in some cases if the child isn’t ‘formed’ yet.

…and you have completely ignored the quotes I gave you from these very church fathers that show this controversy over the centuries. The fact is, the current church view of abortion has been effective for less than 123 years out of the over 1600 years that we have records of the Catholic church opinions on the matter. The church has been more lenient towards abortion over 15 times longer than it has been strict as it is now.

While I understand the position of the church now, and am certainly not going to argue that the church does NOT take the position you claim for it now, you WERE claiming that the position of the church has not changed.

It has.

Diana, I have ignored nothing. I am trying to show you the context. Tradition and Scripture are what defines DOCTRINE. What cannot change is doctrine. The doctrine of the Church has always been, abortion is a grave sin. What has changed over the centuries are the penalties. You are not taking into account these important contexts when you read Augustine or Aquinas.

To your understanding of Scripture and Tradition. The deposit of faith, what the Church maintains and teaches through the generations, began as what the Apostles taught to others, and those in turn taught the next generation and so on and so on. Scripture emerged out of Tradition. People wrote down what they were taught, practiced and believed. The Apostles wrote down what they were teaching. This is the deposit of faith. In its entirety it contains what is doctrinal. The Church cannot change doctrine. It does grow in understanding, which understanding is given to the Church by the Holy Spirit.

So for this specific topic, abortion, you may find wide-ranging writings, but none can override doctrine. They must be understood within the doctrines of the church. The doctrines of the church can be understood by looking at scripture, tradition, and the Catechism. None of which stand separately. They also cannot be at odds, otherwise, heresy can creep in, in the form of changing doctrines.

 

[dianaiad]

Diana, I have ignored nothing. I am trying to show you the context. Tradition and Scripture are what defines DOCTRINE. What cannot change is doctrine. The doctrine of the Church has always been, abortion is a grave sin. What has changed over the centuries are the penalties. You are not taking into account these important contexts when you read Augustine or Aquinas.

To your understanding of Scripture and Tradition. The deposit of faith, what the Church maintains and teaches through the generations, began as what the Apostles taught to others, and those in turn taught the next generation and so on and so on. Scripture emerged out of Tradition. People wrote down what they were taught, practiced and believed. The Apostles wrote down what they were teaching. This is the deposit of faith. In its entirety it contains what is doctrinal. The Church cannot change doctrine. It does grow in understanding, which understanding is given to the Church by the Holy Spirit.

So for this specific topic, abortion, you may find wide-ranging writings, but none can override doctrine. They must be understood within the doctrines of the church. The doctrines of the church can be understood by looking at scripture, tradition, and the Catechism. None of which stand separately. They also cannot be at odds, otherwise, heresy can creep in, in the form of changing doctrines.

Are you telling me that going from 'abortion is a lesser sin than engaging in oral sex or birth control" to “abortion is murder” cannot be termed a change in doctrine?

 

[ParkerD]

Alisha,
Perhaps you have detected a distinction if you have read my posts earlier here. I trust God with all of my heart, and love God with all my heart, might, mind and strength. I love Him emotionally with my emotional self, spiritually with my spirit, mentally with my mind, trustingly and with no shadow of doubt about His love and His justice and mercy. I know He is benevolent and compassionate. I have not an inkling of doubt about these characteristics, nor about my loyalty to Him and His purposes. My love for Him is freely given, with no sense of having to check my own emotions or feel disloyal if I acknowledge those emotions and acknowledge that they are God-given. I think He deals with His children tenderly, mercifully, and kindly with no sense of forced obedience or forced choices even amidst trying and anguishing circumstances of this life.

I wish you all the best with much happiness in your life, and have no doubt you’ll find it. God bless always.

 

[LAMBOFGODGIRLY]

Rebecca J,
My comment was pertaining to one specific situation, not any other. I personally think the laws of the land should be much harsher dealing with those convicted of rape, and perhaps allow the girl significant compensatory damages. But I guess we differ as to our view of how merciful God will be in dealing with a girl who faced the kind of decision we are talking about. I think that the best decision she can make is to keep the baby, and seek the support of those around her to get through the emotional trauma and nine-month reminder of the horrific act against her. But I could never call it what you have called it, if she were to decide she couldn’t handle her situation. I’m talking about my own personal reaction. I just couldn’t look at that situation and tell such a girl that she would be guilty of breaking that commandment, nor would I tell her such a thing after the fact if she had made the decision on her own without counseling or seeking counsel. This is my personal feeling. It has to do with one kind of case, only. You can feel differently–that’s fine with me. I’m just being honest about my own feelings.

 

[dianaiad]

LAMBOFGODGIRLY:
Did you actually have a comment to make, Alisha, about Parker’s statement? I couldn’t find one.

 

[LAMBOFGODGIRLY]

Alisha,
Perhaps you have detected a distinction if you have read my posts earlier here. I trust God with all of my heart, and love God with all my heart, might, mind and strength. I love Him emotionally with my emotional self, spiritually with my spirit, mentally with my mind, trustingly and with no shadow of doubt about His love and His justice and mercy. I know He is benevolent and compassionate. I have not an inkling of doubt about these characteristics, nor about my loyalty to Him and His purposes. My love for Him is freely given, with no sense of having to check my own emotions or feel disloyal if I acknowledge those emotions and acknowledge that they are God-given. I think He deals with His children tenderly, mercifully, and kindly with no sense of forced obedience or forced choices even amidst trying and anguishing circumstances of this life.

I wish you all the best with much happiness in your life, and have no doubt you’ll find it. God bless always.

The Pope states that “there exist acts which per seand in themselves, independently of circumstances, are always seriously wrong by reason of their object” (80). Circumstances or intentions, including those sad and dramatic exceptions forwarded by the Mormon church, cannot transform an intrinsically evil act into something acceptable or even defensible.

All righteous men and women should take note of the Pontiff’s reference to Romans 12:2: “Do not be conformed to this world but be transformed by the renewal of your mind.” Mormon authorities and all those who stand in positions of moral leadership and example need to advert to Paul’s charge to the bishop Timothy: “[T]he time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own likings, and will turn away from listening to the truth” (2 Tim. 4:3).
http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1996/9609fea2.asp

I am not going to conform to this world. Children are a gift from God. No matter how you look at it! I struggle with infertility and it wrecks havoc on my entire life, but I will not ever get invitro!! Invitro is the same concept of abortion, just reversed! I will struggle emotionally the rest of my life if God does not allow me children, but I accept it! I know he has other plans for me, even if I never realize it while I’m alive! If I went and had Invitro, I would ruin His plan for me. I would choose my own path and basically say that I knew better than God did. I will never do that! I did go through 2 rounds of IUI (artificial insemination), and I thank God I didn’t get pregnant, I know why I can not do that now. It is a test. It is a huge temptation to want to get it, but I fight it! I will never conform to this world to get what I think is right! I am only human and have my human brains for limits as to what I can comprehend, and I can not see what the reasoning would be for our infertility, but one day, either here on earth or in heaven, I will know what His plan for me was.
God

 

[LAMBOFGODGIRLY]

Parker, I meant to say “God Bles, Alisha” at the end of my reply, but for some reason it only says “God” sorry, dont know why it messed up, but…
God Bless,
Alisha

 

[Finrock]

Good afternoon Alisha! I hope you are doing well.

I am not going to conform to this world. Children are a gift from God. No matter how you look at it! I struggle with infertility and it wrecks havoc on my entire life, but I will not ever get invitro!! Invitro is the same concept of abortion, just reversed! I will struggle emotionally the rest of my life if God does not allow me children, but I accept it! I know he has other plans for me, even if I never realize it while I’m alive! If I went and had Invitro, I would ruin His plan for me. I would choose my own path and basically say that I knew better than God did. I will never do that! I did go through 2 rounds of IUI (artificial insemination), and I thank God I didn’t get pregnant, I know why I can not do that now. It is a test. It is a huge temptation to want to get it, but I fight it! I will never conform to this world to get what I think is right! I am only human and have my human brains for limits as to what I can comprehend, and I can not see what the reasoning would be for our infertility, but one day, either here on earth or in heaven, I will know what His plan for me was.
God

I just wanted to comment that I really respect the faith that is manifested in your post. Thanks for sharing it.

Kind Regards,
Finrock

 

[LAMBOFGODGIRLY]

Good afternoon Alisha! I hope you are doing well.

I just wanted to comment that I really respect the faith that is manifested in your post. Thanks for sharing it.

Kind Regards,
Finrock

Thanks Finrock Trust in God!

 

[LAMBOFGODGIRLY]

Did you actually have a comment to make, Alisha, about Parker’s statement? I couldn’t find one.

Sorry I didn’t mean to hit send. I hit submit before I wrote anything.

 

[zerinus]

I struggle with infertility and it wrecks havoc on my entire life, but I will not ever get invitro!! Invitro is the same concept of abortion, just reversed! I will struggle emotionally the rest of my life if God does not allow me children, but I accept it! I know he has other plans for me, even if I never realize it while I’m alive! . . .

Then you are in good company with some of the greatest women in the Bible! I can think of Sarah, Abraham’s wife, who remained childless until her old age; and when it came, it came as a great miracle, and great blessings followed. I can think of Rebecca, Isaac’s wife, who was barren until Isaac prayed in faith for her to be healed, and she was. I can think of Rachel, Jacob’s favorite wife, who was childless for a time until the Lord decided to bless her. I can think of Manoah, the mother of the mighty Samson, who was barren until the Lord blessed her with a miracle child. I can think of Hannah, the mother of the prophet Samuel, who was also childless until by the prayer of faith she obtained her wish, and her son became a great prophet of ancient times. Moving on to the New Testament, I can think of Elizabeth, the mother of John the Baptist, to whom it came again as a miracle in her old age. And there are a few more that I can’t think of right now. So you are in good company. Maybe the Lord wants you to exercise faith like them, so that you too can have a miracle in your life as they did!

 

[dianaiad]

Sorry I didn’t mean to hit send. I hit submit before I wrote anything.

Happens to all of us; I was just making sure…

 

[LAMBOFGODGIRLY]

Then you are in good company with some of the greatest women in the Bible! I can think of Sarah, Abraham’s wife, who remained childless until her old age; and when it came, it came as a great miracle, and great blessings followed. I can think of Rebecca, Isaac’s wife, who was barren until Isaac prayed in faith for her to be healed, and she was. I can think of Rachel, Jacob’s favorite wife, who was childless for a time until the Lord decided to bless her. I can think of Manoah, the mother of the mighty Samson, who was barren until the Lord blessed her with a miracle child. I can think of Hannah, the mother of the prophet Samuel, who was also childless until by the prayer of faith she obtained her wish, and her son became a great prophet of ancient times. Moving on to the New Testament, I can think of Elizabeth, the mother of John the Baptist, to whom it came again as a miracle in her old age. And there are a few more that I can’t think of right now. So you are in good company. Maybe the Lord wants you to exercise faith like them, so that you too can have a miracle in your life as they did!

Thank you!! Yea, I pray all the time, but I also told God if he has another plan for me, that I will accept that also because I know He knows what is best for me. Believe it or not, me going through this has brought me closer in my Faith. It’s usually the other way around. Women usually start to blame God, but I’m so thankful I didn’t take that route. God may be waiting on Larry to be closer to Him, and maybe he knew I had to be the one to kick things off. That’s ok too, I told God I would love to be His vehicle for anything He needs! LOL Larry is starting to come around more though. I am so thankful because he hasn’t had God in his life at all for 10 years or so. Maybe he prays, but he never tells me. I would hope he would be able to tell me if he prayed because we are as one, since we are married. Patience Patience Patience…LOL Anyways, Thank you Zerinus!
-Alisha

 

[ParkerD]

Alisha,
However your situation turns out, I know several wonderful mothers including two sisters of mine who have adoptive children rather than birth children, though they prayed many years through many tears to have a birth child. We are so grateful their children are in our extended family! Peace to you and God will hear your prayers, no doubt. LOL.

 

[zerinus]

Sorry I didn’t mean to hit send. I hit submit before I wrote anything.

Did you know that you can delete a post if you submit it by mistake, or if afterwards you changed your mind, provided you do so within the allotted time limit? Just as you can edit your post, you can also delete it.