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dmar198
Guest
False religion churns my stomach. How can these people possibly be so deceived by the Book of Mormon? “You will know this is true by the fire in your belly…” Well maybe I’ve had confirmation that it’s false by the sickness in my belly that I get from hearing about successful Mormon evangelists.
Pray for me to be more charitable; I’ll pray for all Mormons, and for their New Delhi audience, that they may be more receptive to the true Gospel message.
Pray for me to be more charitable; I’ll pray for all Mormons, and for their New Delhi audience, that they may be more receptive to the true Gospel message.
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ParkerD
Guest
dmar198,
Are you saying by not agreeing with the concept of “fire in the soul” or in other words, a “burning in the bosom”, that you disagree with the following verse?:
Luke 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:
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dmar198
Guest
I am not disagreeing with the concept of fire in the soul. I am disagreeing with the concept that a good feeling is proof enough that something is true or authentic.
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ParkerD
Guest
dmar,
I can see your point. One would want more than a good feeling. One would want additional “proofs”, such as:
John 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God
Galations 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance
1 Corinthians 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
1 Thessalonians 5:15 …but ever follow that which is good, both among yourselves, and to all men.
16 Rejoice evermore.
17 Pray without ceasing.
18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.
19 Quench not the Spirit.
20 Despise not prophesyings.
21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
The truths of the gospel ought to bring joy, peace, love for others and for God, right actions, and sanctification of the soul.
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dmar198
Guest
Amen. Mormonism allows divorce and remarriage in some cases; thus they have forsaken God’s moral law on marriage: “to the married I give instructions, not I, but the Lord, that the wife should not leave her husband. And if she does leave, she must remain unmarried.” (1 Corinthians 7:10-11)
That’s just one example. There are others; if “you shall know them by their fruits,” then here is proof that Mormonism is false.
God bless!
-Dmar198
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ParkerD
Guest
Dmar,
I am unfamiliar with whether there are ever divorces by Catholics. I think there are far too many divorces in the world today, and certainly if God’s laws were being followed by all, there would be none.
The implication I draw from your comment is that there are no cases where a Catholic woman who is married and receives physical abuse from her husband, should divorce or if she does, she should never remarry even if there are children who could benefit from the influence of a good role model step-father? (Sorry for the harsh question–I just want to understand the position being cited.)
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Harpazo
Guest
God help them should they try to convert Christians there! 
Why don’t they go to Syria, Jordan or Saudi Arabia? They claim to be Christian, but convert other Christians by going to Latin America and many parts of Europe.
In Christ,
Andrew
Why don’t they go to Syria, Jordan or Saudi Arabia? They claim to be Christian, but convert other Christians by going to Latin America and many parts of Europe.
In Christ,
Andrew
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dmar198
Guest
Yes, there are; but the Church does not allow divorce+remarriage, so any Catholic who divorces and gets remarried is sinning against God and violating Church teaching.
She may separate from her husband, but as Bible-believers we accept the Bible teaching that a sacramental marriage does not end just because someone separates from their spouse. If the marriage was dissolved, then there would be no reason why they couldn’t remarry; but both passages that speak of divorce and remarriage in the Bible, (i.e. Matthew 5:32 and 1 Cor. 7:10-11,) teach that a spouse cannot remarry after a divorce or that spouse is committing adultery.
How about a good role model uncle? or a good role model grandfather? Honestly, there is no excuse for violating the clear words of Scripture. If someone marries a divorced person, they are committing adultery (Matthew 5:32), whether they have children or not, whether they want to or not. Let’s pray that this Bible teaching will be followed more closely rather than abandoned.
God bless!
-Dmar198
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ParkerD
Guest
Dmar198,
Thanks for adding more insight. Does a woman seeking to be a good Catholic feel badly about divorcing from an abusive husband? Is she counseled against that? (I’m just wanting to understand how the doctrine is applied in the real world. I don’t have any particular cases in mind.)
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dmar198
Guest
As I said before, a woman may separate from an abusive husband; but as Saint Paul said, “if she does, she must remain unmarried.” (1 Corinthians 7:11) In God’s eyes, marriage is as permanent as life itself. He says so in His word: “what God has joined together let no man put asunder.” (Matthew 19:6)
Anyone who marries a divorced woman makes her commit adultery. Don’t you agree?
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bpbasilphx
Guest
Should be fairly easy to convert them. Both Hinduism and Mormonoidism are polytheistic fertility cults.
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ParkerD
Guest
dmar198,
I think the higher law announced by Christ pertaining to divorce is attainable by couples and by whole cultures, but I think it requires a whole culture of righteous people who have taught their children righteous actions and where abuse does not happen because of the righteousness in the hearts of the people. I think Christ was teaching an attainable law, but only if the whole culture is living by the higher law.
If the culture is not living by that higher law, then when abuse happens I think a woman in that case deserves an honorable husband and whether one would call her case an annulment or a divorce, I think the “sin” is on the head of the unrighteous first husband which would be why it says “causeth her to commit adultery.” I don’t think the new husband if she remarries has caused her to commit adultery. I think the sin is caused by the first husband, and he bears the guilt in the situation.
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dzheremi
Guest
Indeed!God help them should they try to convert Christians there!
Why don’t they go to Syria, Jordan or Saudi Arabia? They claim to be Christian, but convert other Christians by going to Latin America and many parts of Europe.
In Christ,
Andrew
I fail to see the appeal of Mormonism to non-Americans, anyway. It is so America-centric, what with its organizational center in Utah, its origin in New York, and the fact that all of the peoples and events supposedly described in the BoM are presumed to have existed in the Americas. What the heck could they have to tell Indians, Christian or otherwise? That their brown skin is a curse from God, like they said about blacks for so long?
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gurneyhalleck1
Guest
Hindus should be receptive to Mormon theology; both are polytheists full of colorful mythology that are wayyyyyyy off in left field…
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dmar198
Guest
So let me get this straight… Christ announced a law that won’t go into effect until there’s no more abuse? Until everyone is righteous? Come on! The Law does not exist for the righteous but for the unrighteous. Christ came to save sinners, not people who were already righteous, and His whole teaching was designed to strengthen us by grace to keep the moral law! For anyone to say that His laws aren’t attainable until you’ve already become righteous is completely circular because becoming increasingly righteous means keeping Christ’s law. How can you possibly say that Christ’s will is only attainable after you’ve already attained it, and until you’ve attained it, you don’t have to keep it? That’s insane! It is simply an excuse to not listen to Him.
In the same passage where He taught that post-divorce remarriage = adultery (Matthew 5:31-32), He also taught that lustful thoughts are sinful (5:27-28) and that hatred is sinful (5:21-22). Would you say that lustful thoughts are okay until we’ve reached a culture that’s already righteous? Or that hatred is fine for us, and will only be sinful for our children if we’ve reared them correctly? Of course not! So why do you say that remarriage (which = adultery) is lawful!? Only because you’re trying to defend a teaching that flatly contradicts the express words of Christ.
Sure, that’s why it says, “anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress.” But that’s only half the verse, the other half says, “and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery.”
So you say:
(1) It’s okay for the new husband,
(2) but it’s not okay for the old husband.
But the Bible says,
(1) It’s adultery for the new husband,
(2) and it’s adultery for the old husband.
And you claim to be following Christ’s moral law!? Don’t be ridiculous! One cannot take these, which are the clearest words of Scripture, and twist them into a standard that Christ does not mean for us, and yet claim that you believe in His Word!
To make it more clear, God repeated this teaching in 1 Corinthians 7:10-11 - if a woman leaves her husband, “she must remain unmarried.” Are you going to say that this won’t go into effect until a new “righteous culture” too? How completely off-the-wall can you get!! In 1 Cor. 7:1, 7:8, 7:10, and 7:12 he explicitly states that this is a teaching of God for those to whom he wrote; and they were certainly not living during the “completely righteous culture” that still hasn’t taken hold. How much more do they apply to us? He states, “This is the rule I lay down in all the churches.” (1 Cor. 7:17) But Mormons say, “This is the rule that has not been laid down yet, and when it is, it will only be for churches where righteousness is already attained.”
I ask you again: How can you claim that you are the one keeping the Biblical injunction, when you twist every word of the Scripture so that it conforms to your wishes, instead of conforming your wishes to the Scriptures?
God bless!
-Dmar198
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Jerusha
Guest
dzheremi,
There is a distinct track record of people in foreign countries converting to Mormonism believing that it is a free ticket to America, where the streets are paved with gold. And, of course, the mishies reinforce that belief in order to get “conversions”. It has very little to do with the BOM.
There is a distinct track record of people in foreign countries converting to Mormonism believing that it is a free ticket to America, where the streets are paved with gold. And, of course, the mishies reinforce that belief in order to get “conversions”. It has very little to do with the BOM.
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singh
Guest
Unfortunately, there are many people around the world, such as in India, who have never even heard of a “Jesus”, let alone the true teachings of the first Christians. It may sound unbelievable in this day and age, but believe me, this exists.
Thanks to their deep rooted culture (including inequality of women, submission to the will of elders, caste systems, etc.) many Indians are ignorant of Christ. They only know what has been taught to them by parents, grandparents, and generations before. The word “Jesus” is very taboo, as are many other topics that go against their beliefs. These things are not spoken of in the household, and no exposure is given to them. Parental control and lack of education also disables many Indians to look “outside the box”.
This is why when an “outsider” comes preaching the gospel, whoevers gospel it may be, it sounds very appealing and gives them an outlet; something completely contrary to what they have been brought up to believe.
We can only hope this will open the door for them to continually seek the truth, educate themselves on theology, and lead them to the true catholic faith.
Thanks to their deep rooted culture (including inequality of women, submission to the will of elders, caste systems, etc.) many Indians are ignorant of Christ. They only know what has been taught to them by parents, grandparents, and generations before. The word “Jesus” is very taboo, as are many other topics that go against their beliefs. These things are not spoken of in the household, and no exposure is given to them. Parental control and lack of education also disables many Indians to look “outside the box”.
This is why when an “outsider” comes preaching the gospel, whoevers gospel it may be, it sounds very appealing and gives them an outlet; something completely contrary to what they have been brought up to believe.
We can only hope this will open the door for them to continually seek the truth, educate themselves on theology, and lead them to the true catholic faith.
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ParkerD
Guest
Dmar198,
I’ve been busy all day, but wanted to get back to you on this. I appreciate the insights you have shared.
Christ set the ultimate standard (achievable only through His grace) when He said, “Be ye therefore perfect…” I certainly agree with the continuous need for repentance and grace. I absolutely feel that abuse should never happen in marriage, nor by parents toward children, and these are heinous sins when abuse does happen.
I think when Christ said Moses gave the law of divorcement because the people couldn’t keep the higher law because of the hardness of their hearts, that He was setting the standard under the new higher law but was also explaining the new conditions, which include that the people will have the Spirit and be converted and be healed, including if they were abused as children or were harmed in some way that impacts how they behave as an adult–that they will seek Christ to heal them from the huge impact on their lives. Then if the entire society is healed in this way, a new society emerges where the full higher law can be practiced without women suffering for the conditions of the sinful society that had abuse happening.
The verse about “cause” of adultery places the blame on the man, whether the original husband or the new husband if a divorced woman remarries. I think Christ is setting a high standard for the men in the religion, deliberately placing the blame on them if the conditions of the society lead women to divorce. I also think the teaching tells girls and women to be extremely careful in whom they date and of course whom they marry, seeking the guidance of God through prayer and inspiration and through carefully considering what kind of a person they are thinking of marrying. I would agree with the principle of men not marrying a divorced woman, as a step toward refining a whole culture, but I think that kind of change would be heartwrenching given societal conditions right now. If the Catholic church has really been able to do that within the societies where they set the whole moral standard and behavior expectation, then that’s great. I’d be interested to hear about it. Are you saying, then, that no divorced women in the Catholic church remarry, nor divorced men?
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