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KathleenGee
Guest
Couldn’t follow Sab with his thought about the Father…but another now has bit the dust.
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PaulDupre1
Guest
Too bad…I enjoyed the discussions (s)he prompted.
Oh well.
Paul
Oh well.
Paul
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KathleenGee
Guest
Agree, a congenial person.
Well, this is another example to keep praying for the Mormon people who are searching for the Truth.
Well, this is another example to keep praying for the Mormon people who are searching for the Truth.
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NeuroTypical
Guest
All 80 Syriac manuscripts from the Vatican Library-BYU project are now online here: mss.vatlib.it/guii/scan/link.jsp
Love the detail!
Now if I could just read Syriac.
Someone was “gravely disappointed in this thread” and had concerns about spreading a “rumor that the Vatican Library opened its doors to Mormon microfilming”. I’m not exactly sure what the poster’s problem with such a thing would be, but in the interest of full transparency, here again is the blog entry written back in June by Kristian Heal, director of the Maxwell Institute’s Center for the Preservation of Ancient Religious Texts, about BYU’s involvement in the project:
Two weeks, eighty manuscripts, and a lot of gelato
For those worried about mormon involvement, it looks like mormons didn’t do the actual digitizing work, but instead were called on to evaluate the documents themselves and prepare the descriptions of what’s in them. In other words, mormons didn’t take the pictures of these eighty codices, but mormons were tasked with summarizing their content, in effect, telling the world what’s in them.
Love the detail!
Now if I could just read Syriac.
Someone was “gravely disappointed in this thread” and had concerns about spreading a “rumor that the Vatican Library opened its doors to Mormon microfilming”. I’m not exactly sure what the poster’s problem with such a thing would be, but in the interest of full transparency, here again is the blog entry written back in June by Kristian Heal, director of the Maxwell Institute’s Center for the Preservation of Ancient Religious Texts, about BYU’s involvement in the project:
Two weeks, eighty manuscripts, and a lot of gelato
At the risk of disappointing folks further, here’s a photo of two mormons and Nibley Fellows Luke Drake and Daniel Becerra, PhD students of ancient Christian and Mediterranean religion, in the Vatican Library, handling some of the priceless manuscripts at the invitation of the Vatican Library.
For those worried about mormon involvement, it looks like mormons didn’t do the actual digitizing work, but instead were called on to evaluate the documents themselves and prepare the descriptions of what’s in them. In other words, mormons didn’t take the pictures of these eighty codices, but mormons were tasked with summarizing their content, in effect, telling the world what’s in them.
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OctobersOwn
Guest
I honestly believe that most Mormons just aren’t familiar with A LOT of things in Mormon doctrine and especially its history, which could also be said of Catholics not knowing a lot about their own history (granted, there’s a heck of a lot more to learn). I am dating an ex-Mormon whose family is still very entrenched into its culture, but when it comes to the historical basis for what they believe, they simply either don’t care or haven’t been given actual facts/history. They’re very comfortable. But most of her friends in the early 20’s/30’s are leaving the Church in droves. The pseudo-history and the American-made system created by Joseph Smith/Brigham young is crumbling and Christ is calling to them. It takes a lot more cleverness and bad logic to prove something false into something true. This can really be seen in the Pew statistics of the Mormon Church treading water in its membership and retention rates. They NEED a massive missionary army just to keep their heads above water.
But overall, they are a great people with a unique culture. I wish Pope Francis would reach out to them, because they have so many gifts (so much wealth as well) and a desire to do good.
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TexanKnight
Guest
and that is, in my opinion, the problem. “telling the world…” is not what I want Mormons to do. Mormons have “told the world” what is in the Bible and gotten it all wrong
Mormons have “told the world” about jews living in the Americas 600 BC…and gotten it all wrong
Mormons have “told the world” about the Book of Mormon that no scientist of any area of study has been able to support.
Mormons have “told the world” blacks were bad and would turn white…and gotten it all wrong…
Do you see a pattern?
I guess it is fine if they put their spin on what they read to Mormons…but to the world? I sure hope not
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NeuroTypical
Guest
So Texan, do you believe the Vatican library should have allowed these scholarly PhD candidates to provide the technical scholarly summaries? Just because they’re mormon?
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KathleenGee
Guest
Neuro Typical, My problem is that the LDS comes across as very obsessive about all things Catholic, wants the acclaim the Vatican Library has…
The Vatican had to stop Mormons from getting into sacramental records to baptize Catholics against their knowledge or will…especially into such a religion whose past had a very terrible stand against Catholicism, especially reflective of the Restorationist movement of the 1800’s where there was no church until such sects came into being here in the USA.
Back to the time the Vatican had to stop the Mormons from getting hold of our records, I read a response by a Mormon saying they had just lost a ‘treasure trove’ of sacramental records of church members, including priests and nuns, that they wanted to get their hands on to do whatever to these deceased who died in the name of Christ, whose entire lives were consecrated to God.
Or seeing St. Damian or St. Sr. Faustina married by the Mormon Church, or seeing John Paul II baptized 6 times by Mormons, or made a member of the Mormon temple in San Diego, CA.
How would you like it if the Catholic Church forced baptism on your members?
Or the great sense of happiness the secular mayor of Rome gave the LDS to build their temple…of which they hope some day will have the same esteem as the Vatican?
How would you like it if the Catholic Church wanted access into your records…they would be most interested to find out now what the Quorum really thinks about Mormonism itself…
How would you like it if the Catholic Church was constantly gleaning Catholic commentators, teachings, and so on to make the Mormon thought Catholic thought?
When I go to Mass it is about Christ and we never hear about any Mormons or other beliefs at there.
I just am very leery of what the Mormons will actually do at the Vatican Library and what they will take out and how they will interpret … different than what the documents are intended to say.
Do you see where I am coming from?
I have a history of being very offended and hurt when I came across Mormon teachings about my faith, about our ‘Roman Creed’…abomination…and now your people are most desirous to get what they can from our Church and its resources…I just don’t see a pure heart in all of this. I am sorry I don’t mean to offend…but there is too much obsession and competition towards Catholicism to want to overcome it, to infiltrate it for its purposes…use it to give Mormonism credibility by doctoring it with what they kind find from and through the Catholic Church and its resources.
The Vatican had to stop Mormons from getting into sacramental records to baptize Catholics against their knowledge or will…especially into such a religion whose past had a very terrible stand against Catholicism, especially reflective of the Restorationist movement of the 1800’s where there was no church until such sects came into being here in the USA.
Back to the time the Vatican had to stop the Mormons from getting hold of our records, I read a response by a Mormon saying they had just lost a ‘treasure trove’ of sacramental records of church members, including priests and nuns, that they wanted to get their hands on to do whatever to these deceased who died in the name of Christ, whose entire lives were consecrated to God.
Or seeing St. Damian or St. Sr. Faustina married by the Mormon Church, or seeing John Paul II baptized 6 times by Mormons, or made a member of the Mormon temple in San Diego, CA.
How would you like it if the Catholic Church forced baptism on your members?
Or the great sense of happiness the secular mayor of Rome gave the LDS to build their temple…of which they hope some day will have the same esteem as the Vatican?
How would you like it if the Catholic Church wanted access into your records…they would be most interested to find out now what the Quorum really thinks about Mormonism itself…
How would you like it if the Catholic Church was constantly gleaning Catholic commentators, teachings, and so on to make the Mormon thought Catholic thought?
When I go to Mass it is about Christ and we never hear about any Mormons or other beliefs at there.
I just am very leery of what the Mormons will actually do at the Vatican Library and what they will take out and how they will interpret … different than what the documents are intended to say.
Do you see where I am coming from?
I have a history of being very offended and hurt when I came across Mormon teachings about my faith, about our ‘Roman Creed’…abomination…and now your people are most desirous to get what they can from our Church and its resources…I just don’t see a pure heart in all of this. I am sorry I don’t mean to offend…but there is too much obsession and competition towards Catholicism to want to overcome it, to infiltrate it for its purposes…use it to give Mormonism credibility by doctoring it with what they kind find from and through the Catholic Church and its resources.
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PaulDupre1
Guest
I don’t trust any LDS any further than I can throw him. I have known too many LDS to trust any of them. All LDS lie. They lie about their history, they lie about their teachings, they lie about what other religions teach and practice, they lie about what the ECFs taught.
Whatever it takes to lead you to Joseph Smith, they will say it with a false sincerity that is shocking once you see it for what it is.
Just as the LDS take bible verses completely out of context and convince their members that the bible agrees with Joseph Smith; just as they comb through the ECFs and Early Church council documents trying to find phrases or statements that they can lift out of context to try to show that those Doctors of the Catholic Church and those Catholic Church Councils agreed with Joseph Smith; just as they have combed through the Dead Sea Scroll documents and fragments that have been released to try to make it seem like the Qumran community agreed with Joseph Smith:
They will surely comb through the Syrian manuscripts in a dishonest attempt to lift *something, anything * out of context to claim that these manuscripts support Joseph Smith’s teachings. Joseph Smith is the real god of the LDS, and they will tell any lie and do any evil thing necessary to serve him.
And the TBM faithful will not question one word of what they say. The LDS leaders count on that.
The Vatican seems very naive about how evil Mormonism really is. Unless you’ve been on the inside of the LDS machine, you cannot fully understand the evil that it fosters and the way it infantilizes its members and destroys the souls of good people.
I believe that the Roman Curia should ban all Mormons from all of the materials that the Vatican owns or curates.
I will wait for the edition of the Ensign magazine devoted to “How the Syrian Manuscripts Prove Joseph Smith Was a Prophet”.
Paul (formerly LDS, now happily Catholic)
Whatever it takes to lead you to Joseph Smith, they will say it with a false sincerity that is shocking once you see it for what it is.
Just as the LDS take bible verses completely out of context and convince their members that the bible agrees with Joseph Smith; just as they comb through the ECFs and Early Church council documents trying to find phrases or statements that they can lift out of context to try to show that those Doctors of the Catholic Church and those Catholic Church Councils agreed with Joseph Smith; just as they have combed through the Dead Sea Scroll documents and fragments that have been released to try to make it seem like the Qumran community agreed with Joseph Smith:
They will surely comb through the Syrian manuscripts in a dishonest attempt to lift *something, anything * out of context to claim that these manuscripts support Joseph Smith’s teachings. Joseph Smith is the real god of the LDS, and they will tell any lie and do any evil thing necessary to serve him.
And the TBM faithful will not question one word of what they say. The LDS leaders count on that.
The Vatican seems very naive about how evil Mormonism really is. Unless you’ve been on the inside of the LDS machine, you cannot fully understand the evil that it fosters and the way it infantilizes its members and destroys the souls of good people.
I believe that the Roman Curia should ban all Mormons from all of the materials that the Vatican owns or curates.
I will wait for the edition of the Ensign magazine devoted to “How the Syrian Manuscripts Prove Joseph Smith Was a Prophet”.
Paul (formerly LDS, now happily Catholic)
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twopekinguys
Guest
All I can say is I hope someone proof reads their summaries.
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PaulDupre1
Guest
Whom do you suggest?
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twopekinguys
Guest
I’m off for a couple of weeks.
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TexanKnight
Guest
Read what I posted. I never said I was opposed to them studying it. I said I am opposed to them “telling the world” because what Mormons “tell the world” is lies and justifications.
Just like I am sure you would be ooposed to Catholics being given the key to the secretive LDS vaults and “telling the world” what they found.
The difference is, Catholics are obviously not afraid to let folks see. The LDS vault will stay closed because what is inside exposes the fraud that is the LDS Church
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PaulDupre1
Guest
Have fun and God bless you!I’m off for a couple of weeks.
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Telstar
Guest
This pretty much sums up the problems I see with this whole project, too. I was never LDS, but I’ve been studying Mormonism for over a dozen years. Knowing the attitude that most LDS have toward Catholicism in general, as well as their history of degrading the Catholic Church and the Pope, as often as possible, I am extremely suspect of their true intentions in participating in this kind of ‘study’. I agree that whatever they write about all this should be gone over diligently, by someone that knows what kinds of things to look for that might be inaccurate. I hate to be this way, but their past actions leave me no choice but to question their real motives for even going to the Vatican, at all. It makes me very uneasy.
I’m also quite sure they will use their participation in this study to bolster their own PR machine. This thread is a perfect example of how that’s already happening.
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PaulDupre1
Guest
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zaffiroborant
Guest
You see the same degrading and the same misrepresentations of Catholicism and the Pope on boards for former members. The universality of disdain and and specific misrepresentations of Catholicism seen in active members, NOM members and former members leaves only one conclusion, the members of the LDS church have been taught through their church these ideas and attitudes. I am suspect of the intentions of every LDS member. It was the underhanded ( to put it mildly) actions of LDS members trying to convert children in my family that catalyzed this mistrust on my part.
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iepuras
Guest
Boy is this the truth. Atheist/agnostic ex-Mormons, in general, have as much disdain for the Catholic Church (and Christianity in general) as they do the LDS church. You don’t see the same vitriol against Judaism, Islam, Hinduism or Buddhism as you do against Catholicism. I occasionally post at one of the major ex-Mormon boards in an effort to let new members know that there hope, that you can believe in God after Mormonism. I also try to dispel the myths and misunderstandings of Catholicism on the less contentious threads. The LDS church is steeped with anti-Catholic feeling even though it is much more subtle these days than it used to be.
Like Kathleen, Paul and others, I distrust LDS and their efforts in this project. I would hope that on a project of this importance and magnitude, a Catholic or Orthodox scholar will review the work of these PhD candidates.
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KathleenGee
Guest
Just watch – in contrast to Pave the Way Organization, a Jewish organization, to further bolster their position against Pope Pius XII, they came out seeing he had done more for the Jews than any person in the world at that time during WWII. They admit no other person suffered a character assasination than Pope Pius XII. In recent years a rabbi has apologized for his diatribes against him.
Watch the Mormons get hold of the documents and manipulate them to prove Joseph Smith right, liars that they are.
I still don’t think Rome has the full deck on the manipulations of the Mormons, the very nice men in business suits.
I do not trust these people.
The nationalistic elements of the Russian Orthodox Church sent two of their Romanian priests to enter the Library so they could actually doctor documents to distort the good Pope Pius XII, but could do nothing…I believe the Holy Angels were protecting the name and good works of Pius.
The Mormons here are using modern equipment and will get what they can.
Now to reverse this, let us ask the Mormons to let us excavate Cumorah!!!
Watch the Mormons get hold of the documents and manipulate them to prove Joseph Smith right, liars that they are.
I still don’t think Rome has the full deck on the manipulations of the Mormons, the very nice men in business suits.
I do not trust these people.
The nationalistic elements of the Russian Orthodox Church sent two of their Romanian priests to enter the Library so they could actually doctor documents to distort the good Pope Pius XII, but could do nothing…I believe the Holy Angels were protecting the name and good works of Pius.
The Mormons here are using modern equipment and will get what they can.
Now to reverse this, let us ask the Mormons to let us excavate Cumorah!!!
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TexanKnight
Guest
Let’s give some examples:
The Bible says God is THE ONLY GOD…so Mormons read that and announce that there are lots of gods.
The Bible says God never changes…so Mormons read that and announce that not only does God change, He was once a sinful man…
The Bible quotes Jesus saying that the gates of hell will NEVER prevail against His Church…so Mormons read that that and announce that hell prevailed right after the last apostle died, or a few years after the death, of a few decades after the death, or…or…or…
The Bible quotes Jesus saying He will be with us ALWAYS…so Mormons read that and announce that Jesus decided He was NOT going to be with us after the last apostle died, or a few years after the death, of a few decades after the death, or…or…or…
The Bible says God created Adam…so Mormons read that and, for a time, announced that ADAM was God…
The Book of Mormon stated that blacks would become white…so Mormons read that and agreed…until it never happened…so, they changed the word to pure…
js stated the hill Cumorah in the Book of Mormon was THE hill in NY where those horrible battles took place…so Mormons read that…and agreed…until it was clear that excavation would prove js and all the other prophets wrong…so they now claim they have no idea where the real Cumorah is…
THAT is why I would rather Mormons not read the documents and announce ANYTHING to the world.
The Bible says God is THE ONLY GOD…so Mormons read that and announce that there are lots of gods.
The Bible says God never changes…so Mormons read that and announce that not only does God change, He was once a sinful man…
The Bible quotes Jesus saying that the gates of hell will NEVER prevail against His Church…so Mormons read that that and announce that hell prevailed right after the last apostle died, or a few years after the death, of a few decades after the death, or…or…or…
The Bible quotes Jesus saying He will be with us ALWAYS…so Mormons read that and announce that Jesus decided He was NOT going to be with us after the last apostle died, or a few years after the death, of a few decades after the death, or…or…or…
The Bible says God created Adam…so Mormons read that and, for a time, announced that ADAM was God…
The Book of Mormon stated that blacks would become white…so Mormons read that and agreed…until it never happened…so, they changed the word to pure…
js stated the hill Cumorah in the Book of Mormon was THE hill in NY where those horrible battles took place…so Mormons read that…and agreed…until it was clear that excavation would prove js and all the other prophets wrong…so they now claim they have no idea where the real Cumorah is…
THAT is why I would rather Mormons not read the documents and announce ANYTHING to the world.
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