MORMONS (LDS) what is this "great apostasy" that you claim to have happened?

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Read it in the order in which it was written. Start at Omni or Mosiah, read to end, then resume at 1 Nephi. Then you will understand the difference between the two halves. šŸ‘
How comes you know so much!? Were you mormon before you were catholic? 😦
 
See my repost on anti-Mormons thread. I was raised to blind and uncritical of LDS culture, until Mormon harrassment drove me into PTSD about ten years ago. I confronted my fears by studying their teachings and culture, and by moving to an area where LDS influence is about as minimal as it can get in the US. Meds, prayer, and Mass help, too.
 
See my repost on anti-Mormons thread. I was raised to blind and uncritical of LDS culture, until Mormon harrassment drove me into PTSD about ten years ago. I confronted my fears by studying their teachings and culture, and by moving to an area where LDS influence is about as minimal as it can get in the US. Meds, prayer, and Mass help, too.
Well done for escaping, it must have been so hard for you… šŸ˜›
 
Well, the problem is, that refugees within the US from other areas of the US are not given refugee status. And Canadians would look real wierd at a person from the US claiming to be a refugee from the US. And because of my partial Native ancestry, I would not consider anything else, since I don’t know Spanish. So—. 🤷 This area of Wisconsin is my haven.
 
Well, the problem is, that refugees within the US from other areas of the US are not given refugee status. And Canadians would look real wierd at a person from the US claiming to be a refugee from the US. And because of my partial Native ancestry, I would not consider anything else, since I don’t know Spanish. So—. 🤷 This area of Wisconsin is my haven.
:confused: I don’t know what your talking about Jerusha! I’m from London…
 
I have no difficulty accepting that the original Twelve have a special place in the gospel theology of the New Testament, so that their names should be immortalized in heaven. But that does not rule out the possibility of the perpetuation of that office here on earth thereafter. Even in those days there began to be more than twelve Apostles. Judas was one of the Twelve who died and was replaced by a successor (which makes thirteen of them); and then we have Paul, who was also an Apostle, probably as a successor of James who was beheaded by Herod. So that brings the number of the Apostles to at least 14, which messes up all your calculations.

Doesn’t the Catholic Church teach that the Pope is an Apostle and a successor to Peter? If your argument is valid, that would mess up Catholic theology as well as the Mormon one.
Dear Zerinus,

I have responded to the call that the apostacy began during the time of the twelve apostles not after as I believe your church teaches. If there was an apostacy during this time and it is dealing with maintaining twelve apostles at all times, then Jesus’ 12 apostles failed since they never made their disciples one of the twelve as each was executed. No pope is an apostle. Each pope is considered a Vicar of Christ.

If Christ came back during the lives of the 12 chosen apostles there would be no need for a Vicar. No one chose to replace dead apostles with themselves because then they would not be chosen by anyone but themselves as St Paul did. Jesus chose the apostles Himself. The reason there were no chosen apostles after Mathias, who basically won a lottery, is because the power to chose an apostle was Jesus Christ’s alone. Peter was chosen by Christ to lead His church, not the twelve. This is why the Church elects a Pope, as to follow Jesus’ choice, not the apostles choice.

May God continually guide us.

jpaul1953
 
Thank you jpaul for commenting on my post.
I have responded to the call that the apostacy began during the time of the twelve apostles not after as I believe your church teaches.
We also think that the Apostasy had begun during the lifetime of the Apostles.
If there was an apostacy during this time and it is dealing with maintaining twelve apostles at all times, then Jesus’ 12 apostles failed since they never made their disciples one of the twelve as each was executed.
The failure was not the fault of the Apostles. The failure was partly caused by the wickedness of the people, and partly because of the state sponsored persecution of the Christians.
No pope is an apostle. Each pope is considered a Vicar of Christ.
You regard the Pope to be the successor of Peter; and the only way he could do that would be if he embodied the office of Peter, who was the chief Apostle.
If Christ came back during the lives of the 12 chosen apostles there would be no need for a Vicar.
Christ did in fact ā€œcome back during the lives of the 12 chosen Apostlesā€. After He died He was resurrected, and appeared to His Apostles and instructed them for 40 days, and ascended to heaven; and even after He had ascended to heaven He did occasionally visit them and gave them instructions when they required it.
No one chose to replace dead apostles with themselves because then they would not be chosen by anyone but themselves as St Paul did.
St Paul was chosen to be an Apostle by Jesus Christ, not by himself.
Jesus chose the apostles Himself.
Modern day Apostles in the LDS Church are also chosen by Jesus Christ.
The reason there were no chosen apostles after Mathias, who basically won a lottery, is because the power to chose an apostle was Jesus Christ’s alone. Peter was chosen by Christ to lead His church, not the twelve. This is why the Church elects a Pope, as to follow Jesus’ choice, not the apostles choice.
That didn’t make sense. The Twelve had the authority to choose other Apostles by revelation from the Lord. Matthias was not chosen by lottery! The ā€œlotteryā€ was a way (one way) of determining the will of the Lord concerning the matter.
 
Zundrah, I see you are disappointed because Catholics have not read the BOM. I have tried many times to get through it over the years. Finally, managed the whole thing about a year ago. For me, I find it more exciting to sit and watch the grass grow.
Yes, I do have Mormon friends, or LDS if you prefer, and did discuss the book with them.
 
You regard the Pope to be the successor of Peter; and the only way he could do that would be if he embodied the office of Peter, who was the chief Apostle.
That does not make him (the pope) an apostle, although Peter was an apostle, nor do we consider the pope to be an apostle.

If you insist that Catholics consider the pope to be an apostle, then you insist on keeping a falsehood about the Catholic Church. Catholics do not consider the pope to be an apostle. Nor does the fact the he is a successor to Peter make the pope an apostle.
 
Zundrah, I see you are disappointed because Catholics have not read the BOM. I have tried many times to get through it over the years. Finally, managed the whole thing about a year ago. For me, I find it more exciting to sit and watch the grass grow.
Yes, I do have Mormon friends, or LDS if you prefer, and did discuss the book with them.
HELLO, your new here!
So Prague, what do you mean by the BOM?

:tiphat:
 
That does not make him (the pope) an apostle, although Peter was an apostle, nor do we consider the pope to be an apostle.

If you insist that Catholics consider the pope to be an apostle, then you insist on keeping a falsehood about the Catholic Church. Catholics do not consider the pope to be an apostle. Nor does the fact the he is a successor to Peter make the pope an apostle.
It was the pope that made me go to a catholic church for the first time! 😃 LOL 😃
The pope is amazing! But I don’t know much about the pope being a apostle or not…
 
If there was an apostasy during this time and it is dealing with maintaining twelve apostles at all times, then Jesus’ 12 apostles failed since they never made their disciples one of the twelve as each was executed.
You are correct. The Mormon explanations for this are just irrational without any historical evidence.
No pope is an apostle. Each pope is considered a Vicar of Christ.
Peter was the Vicar of Christ, one of The Twelve, an Apostle, and Bishop of Rome. The title of Twelve and Apostle was never meant to be handed down so Peter’s successors are the Bishop of Rome and Vicar of Christ with all the Authority Peter had.
No one chose to replace dead apostles with themselves because then they would not be chosen by anyone but themselves as St Paul did. Jesus chose the apostles Himself. The reason there were no chosen apostles after Mathias, who basically won a lottery, is because the power to chose an apostle was Jesus Christ’s alone.
Paul and Barnabas were Apostles and both converted to Christianity after the crucifixion, so it seems the Twelve could commission Apostles. But The Twelve was never meant to continue. (Rev 21:14, Acts 1:21-22) and without Christ or The Twelve to commission Apostles; there would soon be no Apostles. As we know the Church was never supposed to be lead by Apostles, so it seems this is something else made up by Joseph Smith about five years after he started his religion.
 
You are correct. The Mormon explanations for this are just irrational without any historical evidence.

Peter was the Vicar of Christ, one of The Twelve, an Apostle, and Bishop of Rome. **The title of Twelve and Apostle was never meant to be handed down **so Peter’s successors are the Bishop of Rome and Vicar of Christ with all the Authority Peter had.
.
This is exactly what the mormons claim that they have! **Living apostles! **🤷 …weirdoes!
 
Now Z, you are a smart person. I think you know what the BOM is…
 
It sounds to me from these comments that some Catholics believe that Christ would not and could not call more apostles than the ones He called while He was living. Christ never said that, nor did any of the apostles. The apostles were called by Christ to be sent into ā€œall the worldā€ to testify of Him and teach what He had taught. Did they make it into all the world?
 
It sounds to me from these comments that some Catholics believe that Christ would not and could not call more apostles than the ones He called while He was living. Christ never said that, nor did any of the apostles. The apostles were called by Christ to be sent into ā€œall the worldā€ to testify of Him and teach what He had taught. Did they make it into all the world?
They were needed when they were needed but just to say that God can call more to the world is just like saying that we should have or need a new prophet, but we don’t! Christ was the only one and last needed!

Amen and sweet dreams - bed time for me!
 
Sorry, Z. Just means the Book of Mormon!!! That is what my 84 year old LDS, mormon friend always calls it.
God Bless you!
 
It sounds to me from these comments that some Catholics believe that Christ would not and could not call more apostles than the ones He called while He was living.
What he ā€˜could do’ and what he ā€˜did do’ are two different things. Apostle means to be sent; by my count he sent 82 while he was alive: The Twelve and the seventy.
Christ never said that, nor did any of the apostles.
We don’t know everything Christ said but we know what happened. We know what the Apostle Peter said as recorded by Luke in Acts 1:21-22, which would limit the Twelve to the first century. We know what the Apostle John wrote in Revelations 21:14 which identifies the Twelve as a special one time group and the New Testament doesn’t record any other Apostle being added to the Twelve.
 
It sounds to me from these comments that some Catholics believe that Christ would not and could not call more apostles than the ones He called while He was living. Christ never said that, nor did any of the apostles. The apostles were called by Christ to be sent into ā€œall the worldā€ to testify of Him and teach what He had taught. Did they make it into all the world?
It’s not that he wouldn’t or couldn’t, it’s that he *didn’t. *I believe they made it into known world. He also said nothing about creating other Apostles after the first ones.

As more of the world became known, others were sent out to evangelize, but it didn’t mean they were apostles.
 
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