MORMONS (LDS) what is this "great apostasy" that you claim to have happened?

[Zundrah]

Everything is wrong with it. I have already given my arguments in support of the Apostasy in posts #68 and #69, which nobody has seriously challenged. Instead, he just builds his own arguments and knocks them down. They are not my arguments. They are his own supposedly Mormon arguments, which I would not bring. If he is serious, he can start by addressing my points in those posts, instead of building his own straw men and knocking them down.

Let’s see what he does. I’ll go look at your post #68 and #69 in the mean while…

 

[Zundrah]

/… Continued

I am not aware of such a statement in the Bible. On the contrary, there were prophets in the Christian church in the days of the Apostles (after the death of Jesus); and there is nothing to suggest that there shouldn’t be any more afterwards. The Revelation of John teaches of two prophets that God will raise up in the latter days.

I don’t see the logic of that. Jesus did not necessarily reveal everything. He revealed at that time all that was necessary to be revealed at that time. It did not mean that He should not reveal anything more in the future. And in any case, what He did reveal was lost or distorted through the Apostasy; hence the need for a Restoration to put right what had gone wrong

See above.

God is omniscient; but He does not exercise His omniscience and omnipotence to prevent us from messing things up if that is what we want to do. Just as God did not exercise His omniscience to prevent Adam from falling; He would not exercise his omniscience to prevent the church from falling away, or Apostatizing.

See above.

I came across this on your link; The Great Apostasy is a term used by some religious groups to allege a general fallen state of traditional Christianity, or especially of Catholicism, magisterial Protestantism and Eastern Orthodoxy, that it is not representative of the faith founded by Jesus and promulgated through his twelve Apostles: in short, that these churches have fallen into apostasy.

But there really was no need for the prophet Joseph Smith! There is no need for the book of Mormon either! Listen to me because I am not being anti - Mormon or argumentative, just listen.
I attended a Methodist church and became a christian, I gained Christ and came to know the father thanks to Jesus. I now have the blessed mercy of our father, just like you do. Catholics too work in this way. I was baptized in the name of “The father, the son and the holy spirit” and so too were you and all Catholics too. So in a nut shell what more do we possibly need other than that? No need for the book of Mormon or the LDS church because there never was a problem any way… We all have christ, the father and his holy spirit. So what is the point in this book of Mormon when it was unnecessary any way?

 

[majick275]

Never been so confused in all my life!

well that is certainly true

 

[majick275]

This is a monologue, not a dialogue. You are talking to yourself, not to Mormons. You build your own “Mormon arguments,” and then knock them down! That is easy. Not much brains is required for that. The arguments for the Apostasy are not that complecated; and a lot more forceful.

fine by me…nobody needs to cater to mormons and this isn’t a debate contest. there was no complete global apostasy, nor a restoration and mormonism isn’t the one and only true church that god established

 

[majick275]

Everything is wrong with it. I have already given my arguments in support of the Apostasy in posts #68 and #69, which nobody has seriously challenged. Instead, he just builds his own arguments and knocks them down. They are not my arguments. They are his own supposedly Mormon arguments, which I would not bring. If he is serious, he can start by addressing my points in those posts, instead of building his own straw men and knocking them down.

and no one cares…we know the truth. put down your pay lay ale and look objectively at what god has made available and maybe you will see it too.

 

[Stephen168]

They are not my arguments. They are his own supposedly Mormon arguments, which I would not bring. If he is serious, he can start by addressing my points in those posts, instead of building his own straw men and knocking them down

I. Mormonism claims the Apostasy means:

• A. There were no more living prophets/apostles to continuously reveal the truth
• B. Plain and precious truths (true doctrine) became subverted by human ideas and was thus lost
• C. The priesthood authority was gone from the earth.

Since by the Apostasy we mean primarily the loss of the priesthood and Apostolic authority of the church, and all the Apostles are believed to have died (without replacement) before the end of the first century, I would put the approximate date of the Apostasy somewhere at the close of the first century AD.

II. The Problems with the Mormon claim:

• A. No living Prophet
• 1. Christianity never claimed to have a prophet (single person receiving revelation for all Christendom)
• 1. Mormon Prophets don’t prophesizes.
• B. Doctrine must not change
• 1. Define Doctrine – an article of faith revealed by God, which the Church presents to be believed. The most universal beliefs which reason would dictate can not change; beliefs of who God is and means of salvation for example.
• 1. Mormon Doctrine has changes
• a) Blood Atonement
• b) Adam-God theory
• c) Mark of Cain
• C. Loss of Priesthood Authority
• 1. Every Mormon male has Priesthood authority
• 1. Priesthood authority and leadership are not the same thing
• a) A sinful person does not lose his authority
• (1) King Noah had priesthood authority to give to Alma to baptize at the Waters of Mormon
• 1. To lose Priesthood authority:
• a) Every Priesthood holders would have to not pass on their authority
• b) At almost the same time non-Priesthood holders take over leadership of the Church.

III. The Catholic/Orthodox Claim:

•   A.    No living Prophet

•          1.    Christianity never had a prophet

•          2.    Christ reveled all we need for salvation during his earthly ministry, so no need for continuing public revelation.

•   B.    Doctrine must not change

•          1.   Define Doctrine (Dogma) – an article of faith revealed by God, which the Church presents to be believed. The most universal beliefs which reason would dictate can not change; beliefs of who God is and means of salvation for example.

•          2.   Catholic/Orthodox Doctrines do not change

•               a)   Trinity

•               b)   Eucharist

•               c)   Baptism

•    C.   No loss of Priesthood Authority

•         1.   The Bishops have the full priesthood authority.

•         2.    Apostolic Succession

•              ** a)   The title Apostle was limited to those sent by Christ**

•           **    b)   The Apostles passed their authority to the Bishops**

•               **c)   The Bishops have passed their authority down to this day**

 

[Christian55]

Follow link to article entitled, Failed Prophecies of Joseph Smith: (Copyright © 1997 Institute for Religious Research. All rights reserved)

irr.org/mit/js-failed-prophecies.html

The article quotes the seven prophecies from “Latter-day Saint scriptures or the History of the Church (HC), a seven volume history published under the authority of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon.)”

 

[ricko]

Everything is wrong with it. I have already given my arguments in support of the Apostasy in posts #68 and #69, which nobody has seriously challenged. Instead, he just builds his own arguments and knocks them down. They are not my arguments. They are his own supposedly Mormon arguments, which I would not bring. If he is serious, he can start by addressing my points in those posts, instead of building his own straw men and knocking them down.

You haven’t given any evidence of an apostasy. All you have done is make the accusation that there was one and quoted some bible verses. Some of those verses state that it will happen in the “latter days”. The first century is not the latter days.

Pointing out that there were problems within some churches is making a mountain out of a molehill. That was common then because they didn’t have good communication (like a telephone) and they didn’t have a bible to reference (NT) to resolve issues. The bible never said that these minor problems led to a falling away. They were resolved.

By using your logic with those bible verses, the LDS is in apostasy. Look at all of the divisions and problems the LDS has had and now the time can more correctly be called the "Latter Day"s

Your proof is no proof. You haven’t proved anything.

 

[dianaiad]

So Mormons do believe Christ had an earthly ministry

Why do I get the feeling that you are attempting to lead me into some rhetorical trap?

Yes, of course we believe He had an ‘earthly ministry,’ …and the only way we know about it is because it was written about by His apostles, who communicated with Him before His death, and after His death. Any communication with Him after His death would be revelation, by definition…

Come to think of it, wouldn’t any communication from Him to them, no matter whether it was before or after His death, be revelation, considering Who He is?

hmmnnnn…

 

[Monica4316]

If the “great apostasy” happened, then… where was the Holy Spirit.

 

[dianaiad]

Or, the Holy Spirit guides Christ Church. What is the Holy Spirit but God, revealing Himself to us?

…and the words of the people who wrote what He told them to write for the edification of His church are, where?

Please don’t mix the private communication and confirmation of the Holy Ghost on an individual level with what I’m talking about here; continued direct communication from God to those who have His authority to guide the entire church…communications that are, and are recognized as, scripture just as the bible is. The first, that individual spirit of confirmation and answer to prayer–that was not lost at all. It is that rather important second sort that seems to have disappeared—and in that both Catholics and Protestants concur; there wasn’t any more of that sort of thing.

It has already been shown in scripture where Jesus, GOD, has spoken to us, Revealed Himself. It has already been shown that what He taught the Apostles, and what they taught to the world, was delivered once. It has already been shown that Jesus did not leave us orphans, blind and without God’s revealing hand. You are stuck on thinking something is missing, when it is not.

You keep forgetting the way in which that was done, Rebecca…through apostles and prophets…and that it evidently was not FINISHED with His death and resurrection, or that incident on the road to Damascus would never have happened. Nor, come to think of it, would any of the letters we have in the NT been written. The NT would have consisted of the gospels only–then ended, seems to me.

I think you describe well the problems you have in mormonism, and how what you believe colors your understanding. These are not problems of Catholicism.

Example, that last “or” of yours, is exactly what a few LDS people over at MADB are claiming. And of all things, in a thread about the bones of St. Paul, the results of the study on them, and the release of these results on one of the most important holy days: The Feast of St. Peter and St. Paul.

What, that if their was to be no more revelation after the gospel writers, that the words of Paul should be tossed? Well, I’ll have to go over to MADB and see precisely what those LDS people are claiming. Something tells me that they aren’t seriously advocating throwing Paul to the wolves, but you never know…

Anyway, I’ll get back to you on that.

 

[dianaiad]

At last, praise the lord that I can finally think straight! Thank you for clearing this up Stephen168.

Zundrah, Stephen’s presentation about what our beliefs actually are tends to be inaccurate. Therefore his arguments against them aren’t all that helpful.

Erecting a strawman to tear down isn’t really addressing the topic, y’know?

 

[Stephen168]

I. Mormonism claims the Apostasy means:

• A. There were no more living prophets/apostles to continuously reveal the truth
• B. Plain and precious truths (true doctrine) became subverted by human ideas and was thus lost
• C. The priesthood authority was gone from the earth.

Since by the Apostasy we mean primarily the loss of the priesthood and Apostolic authority of the church, and all the Apostles are believed to have died (without replacement) before the end of the first century, I would put the approximate date of the Apostasy somewhere at the close of the first century AD.

The doctrinal changes that occurred are various and are evident. Mode of baptism, age of baptism, celibacy, being joint heirs with Christ, understanding the process of revelation and revealed knowledge, to name a few.

So, in short when Mormons speak of the Apostasy, we are saying that after the death of the Apostles (who had the priesthood authority to direct God’s church) and due to the widespread nature of this falling away from the truth, God withdrew his priesthood authority from the earth. Without the direction of prophets and apostles, many doctrines underwent unauthorized changes or were lost.

We aren’t expecting that, y’know. The thing is, several of us have written rather extensive answers to that, why WE believe that there was an apostasy; why the priesthood authority was lost.
We do not see that priesthood authority; we don’t see the continuation of the apostolic line of succession that you see. We just don’t…and if that authority is lost, then the only option is that it has to be restored—

 

[RebeccaJ]

…and the words of the people who wrote what He told them to write for the edification of His church are, where?

Please don’t mix the private communication and confirmation of the Holy Ghost on an individual level with what I’m talking about here; continued direct communication from God to those who have His authority to guide the entire church…communications that are, and are recognized as, scripture just as the bible is. The first, that individual spirit of confirmation and answer to prayer–that was not lost at all. It is that rather important second sort that seems to have disappeared—and in that both Catholics and Protestants concur; there wasn’t any more of that sort of thing.

Hi Diana, you discount the importance in revelation of the Holy Spirit that the Catholic Church accepts as direct, from God, no less important or lesser in impact than any other way in which God reveals Himself to us. This idea that it is, is based on your belief, not Catholic, or most of Christianity.

You keep forgetting the way in which that was done, Rebecca…through apostles and prophets…and that it evidently was not FINISHED with His death and resurrection, or that incident on the road to Damascus would never have happened. Nor, come to think of it, would any of the letters we have in the NT been written. The NT would have consisted of the gospels only–then ended, seems to me.

Diana, you have unnecessary worries. We do not believe that the Revelation of the Word of God ended, not ever. Jesus is this Revelation, perfect and complete. The Holy Spirit is given to us to guide us into an understanding, acceptance, and belief of this Revelation. This Revelation never ceases.

I am sure you are aware that Catholics believe in many miracles and apparitions. What we do not believe is that these change, alter or add to the perfect Revelation of the Word of God, Jesus Christ. What we understand is that they testify to this Truth. However, none are required to be believed by any Catholic. The Truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ is complete, and has been since Jesus gave it to us. Believe in Him, and be baptized.

What, that if their was to be no more revelation after the gospel writers, that the words of Paul should be tossed? Well, I’ll have to go over to MADB and see precisely what those LDS people are claiming. Something tells me that they aren’t seriously advocating throwing Paul to the wolves, but you never know…

Anyway, I’ll get back to you on that.

I don’t know Diana. People at MADB have such off the wall ideas. The first time I read someone write that they did not believe the words of St. Paul…that was quite the shocker for me. I thought perhaps it was just the opinions of that one person, but it is not. Mormon belief that the Bible has errors combined with this idea of “apostasy” at an early time of Christianity, has severely handicapped the reasoning of folks over there. That is my opinion.

 

[zerinus]

I came across this on your link; The Great Apostasy is a term used by some religious groups to allege a general fallen state of traditional Christianity, or especially of Catholicism, magisterial Protestantism and Eastern Orthodoxy, that it is not representative of the faith founded by Jesus and promulgated through his twelve Apostles: in short, that these churches have fallen into apostasy.

But there really was no need for the prophet Joseph Smith! There is no need for the book of Mormon either! Listen to me because I am not being anti - Mormon or argumentative, just listen.
I attended a Methodist church and became a christian, I gained Christ and came to know the father thanks to Jesus. I now have the blessed mercy of our father, just like you do. Catholics too work in this way. I was baptized in the name of “The father, the son and the holy spirit” and so too were you and all Catholics too. So in a nut shell what more do we possibly need other than that? No need for the book of Mormon or the LDS church because there never was a problem any way… We all have christ, the father and his holy spirit. So what is the point in this book of Mormon when it was unnecessary any way?

Thank you for expressing your opinion. Your opinion is respected and appreciated; but it does not prove anything one way or another. It just tells me that you have a different opinion from me. I just happen to disagree with your opinion.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Thank you for expressing your opinion. Your opinion is respected and appreciated; but it does not prove anything one way or another. It just tells me that you have a different opinion from me. I just happen to disagree with your opinion.

Seems you cannot recognize a testimony of truth unless it includes, “I believe Joseph Smith was a prophet of God”.

 

[zerinus]

Okay Stephen, I take the highlighted parts of your post to be addressed to me, which I will here try to reply to.

II. The Problems with the Mormon claim:

1. Every Mormon male has Priesthood authority

True; we believe that every (worthy) male Mormon can and should hold the priesthood. But you fail to point out what is wrong with that proposition, so I cannot reply. I cannot address your objection unless I know what it is, or what it is based on.

a) Every Priesthood holders would have to not pass on their authority
b) At almost the same time non-Priesthood holders take over leadership of the Church.

That is not a valid argument from an LDS point of view. We believe that with the death of the Twelve Apostles the keys of the priesthood authority of the church was lost or taken away, so that the passing of priesthood authority by ordination could no longer be effected.

III. The Catholic/Orthodox Claim:
a) The title Apostle was limited to those sent by Christ

We believe that the modern Apostles of Jesus Christ are also “sent by Christ”.

b) The Apostles passed their authority to the Bishops

We don’t believe that is possible. The office of a bishop and that of an Apostle are fundamentally different. Bishops are not and cannot be successors of the Apostles.

c) The Bishops have passed their authority down to this day

They could not. Bishops did not have the authority to ordain bishops. Only the Apostles ordained bishops.

 

[zerinus]

You haven’t given any evidence of an apostasy. All you have done is make the accusation that there was one and quoted some bible verses. Some of those verses state that it will happen in the “latter days”. The first century is not the latter days.

Pointing out that there were problems within some churches is making a mountain out of a molehill. That was common then because they didn’t have good communication (like a telephone) and they didn’t have a bible to reference (NT) to resolve issues. The bible never said that these minor problems led to a falling away. They were resolved.

By using your logic with those bible verses, the LDS is in apostasy. Look at all of the divisions and problems the LDS has had and now the time can more correctly be called the "Latter Day"s

Your proof is no proof. You haven’t proved anything.

I think that I have. I think that the arguments I have put forward are more cogent than what you are trying to portray.

 

[zerinus]

If the “great apostasy” happened, then… where was the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit has not been absent. The Apostasy does not mean that the Holy Spirit has been absent from the genuine believers in Christ in the Catholic Church, or indeed in Orthodix or Protestant churches.

 

[dianaiad]

Hi Diana, you discount the importance in revelation of the Holy Spirit that the Catholic Church accepts as direct, from God, no less important or lesser in impact than any other way in which God reveals Himself to us. This idea that it is, is based on your belief, not Catholic, or most of Christianity.

Diana, you have unnecessary worries. We do not believe that the Revelation of the Word of God ended, not ever. Jesus is this Revelation, perfect and complete. The Holy Spirit is given to us to guide us into an understanding, acceptance, and belief of this Revelation. This Revelation never ceases.

I am sure you are aware that Catholics believe in many miracles and apparitions. What we do not believe is that these change, alter or add to the perfect Revelation of the Word of God, Jesus Christ. What we understand is that they testify to this Truth. However, none are required to be believed by any Catholic. The Truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ is complete, and has been since Jesus gave it to us. Believe in Him, and be baptized.

I don’t know Diana. People at MADB have such off the wall ideas. The first time I read someone write that they did not believe the words of St. Paul…that was quite the shocker for me. I thought perhaps it was just the opinions of that one person, but it is not. Mormon belief that the Bible has errors combined with this idea of “apostasy” at an early time of Christianity, has severely handicapped the reasoning of folks over there. That is my opinion.

Well, what you are talking about now is a problem—but not for us. It’s a problem for the anti’s.

How?
Because one of the favorite anti accusations is that no Mormon can think for himself; that he cannot hold personal beliefs apart from the church dictates.

Then you have this…evidently there are some Mormons who are rather vocal about dissing Paul.

Now the true anti’s would pounce on that and declare see? The MORMONS are throwing Paul out of the bible!

But we aren’t, and we don’t…in fact, we use Paul as an example of how direct revelation obviously continued. Now it seems to me that throwing Paul under the bus would support the Orthodox view (though most of the “by faith alone” and trinitarian information comes from Paul), but would not help the Mormons much, if any.

So some Mormons are dissing Paul? (grin) Wow, I guess that means that there are Mormons out there who have different beliefs from those that are on the official website…just like there are Catholics out there who have different opinions about Catholic teachings. How about that.