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kellie
Guest
Yes, God may allow something, but the Government of the time may ban it.
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zerinus
Guest
That is “stretching it”!
That is where I fundamentally disagree. I agree that there are limited situations where leading a celibate life would enable one to serve God more effectively, examples of which were given; but it does not follow that a celibate life is inherently preferable to a married one in any religious context; neither do I believe the this is what the Jesus intended to teach. I firmly believe that a married man who has accepted the (divine) responsibility of raising a righteous family, while at the same time being gainfully employed in a respectable employment where he renders a valuable service to his community, and at the same time socially interacts with the rest of mankind exerting a righteous influence among them, and also at the same time being active in his church serving his God and fellow men, is of infinitely greater worth to God and man, and renders Him an infinitely greater service, than a monk sitting in his cold cell in the monastery chanting the rosary all the day long.
That is “stretching it” even more! There are literally thousands of people in our church who are married sometimes with a large familiy, who at the same time have responsible jobs which takes up a sizable portion of their time as one would expect, who at the same time are called to serve as bishops and stake presidents of our wards and stakes who do an excellent job of it, and manage to juggle all of those balls in the air and thoroughly happy with it, and are none the worse for it. They are the ones who are really serving God, not the monk sitting in his cold cell doing the rosary all the day long, or even the Catholic priest who has absconded from the greatest responsibility that God has place on man, which is to raise a righteous family.
zerinus
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Nan_S
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The crack about men who have taken sacred oaths to serve God “absconding” from their responsibility is very insulting and completely unnecessary, but I’ll let it pass.
Just curious, Z. Do you have a wife and children? If so, how many and how old? The nature of your answer leads me to believe you are a young, unmarried man with idealistic visions of family life.
The image of the smartly-dressed father caressing the shoulder of his starry-eyed son, while his smiling wife brings the fresh roast to the table is everyone’s ideal. The reality is more along the lines of sleepless nights with sick kids, knowing that the laundry is unfinished, the bills are due, the neighbors are making wisecracks about the length of the grass, the dog needs to be walked, you’ll have to go to work in the morning no matter how little sleep you’ve had, and you still haven’t written your presentation for the church meeting next evening because another child’s science project (which he forgot to mention until now) is due tomorrow, your spouse wants the other kids to just shut up for a few minutes, and you have to sleep sometime. Trust me, coffee was sometimes the only way I made it work. Too bad Mormons don’t do coffee.
Anyone who says he can juggle all the balls at once is either ignoring half of them or has access to a time machine. I’ve been there.
Nan
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PaulDupre
Guest
Zerinus/Amgid is a high school kid, probably 17 years old.
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zerinus
Guest
I don’t question their sincerity, but I do question their judgement. At best they are deceived, and at worst they have emotional and psychological problems that prevents them from living a normal human life. Jesus didn’t lock himself up in a monastery doing the rosary all the day long. He lived a normal active life of a normal citizen, interacting with His community and laboring with His hands to provide for Himself and his family, which consisted of His mother and His younger brothers and sisters. (I know you think He didn’t have any, but you are wrong!) Anybody who thinks that locking yourself up in a cold cell in a monastery chanting praises to God all his life is doing the will of God is gravely misguided.The crack about men who have taken sacred oaths to serve God “absconding” from their responsibility is very insulting and completely unnecessary, but I’ll let it pass.
My dear lady, I am not here to play games with you. What I am telling you is what I have seen and observed as a result of many, many years of personal experience in the LDS Church. Do you think that I am lying when I tell you that that is the case? Have you ever been to an LDS Church? If you live in the US, there is probably one near you. Why don’t you go there and find out for yourself, instead of making silly remarks about me? Did you know that the LDS Church is run by volunteers? Did you know that we do not have a paid, trained, or professionally clergy? The entire Church (apart from a very small number at the top) is run by its members who not only do not get a penny for their work, but they actively contribute of their time, talents, and money (minimum 10% of income) to the Church. Without them there wouldn’t be an LDS Church. I don’t say that it is easy. Of course we all have challenges. But if they couldn’t do it, or weren’t happy doing it, they wouldn’t. Nobody forces them to. Why don’t you try it? Go to the LDS Church and find out for yourself. They won’t bite! Go there and talk to the bishop. Ask to see him in his office. I assure you he won’t mind. Ask him to tell you about his job, his wife and kid, his family life. Ask him how he manages to cope with all that work, and whether he is happy doing it. Ask him to invite you to his home for dinner, so you can observe his family life at close quarters. I bet your bottom dollar he wouldn’t mind. He would be glad to invite you and your family along. Do the same with the stake president. Stake presidents are usually pretty busy people. You may have to make an appointment to see him. But I assure you that he wouldn’t mind. Ask him the same kinds of questions. Invite yourself to his home. See what he does and how he lives his life. Have you heard of this quote: “No success can compensate for failure in the home”? That is a famous quote in the LDS Church. It was made by one of our former presidents, David O McKay. Here is another famous LDS quote: “The greatest work you will ever do will be within the walls of your own home”. Who said that? That was said, if I remember correctly, by Harold B Lee, another former president of our Church. Have you read the LDS proclamation on the family? This proclamation was written and signed by the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles of the Church in 1995, and proclaimed and published to all the heads of state and religious organizations throughout the world (which I am sure includes the Catholic Church). You can read it here. That is the ethos of the LDS Church. That is the standard by which the LDS Church lives and encourages its members to live. Please don’t make idiotic comments if you have nothing better to say.
zerinus
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Nan_S
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None of the men dedicated to God that I was thinking of as I wrote are or were ever locked up in a monastery. All of them live a normal, active life interacting with the community and laboring with their hands. Again, your continued characterization of Catholic clergy as either being “deceived,” “misguided,” or burdened with “emotional and psychological problems that prevent them from living a normal human life” is unChristian and highly insulting.
I had in mind:
– The Catholic priests who are in charge of parishes with a couple of thousand families each by the time they themselves are 30 years old, on call 24/7/365, with scarcely a moment to devote to themselves and much less to wife and young children. Catholic priests are paid, but the monetary wages are poverty-level.
– The unpaid deacons who have full-time outside jobs in the community, yet still take a considerable amount of the workload that would otherwise fall to the already fully-committed priest. They are able to embrace the demands of this work because their children are mostly grown.
– Our newlywed cousin, ordained a minister in the Methodist church, who assumed responsibility for a faltering church and built it into a thriving, vibrant community whose membership expanded four-fold to over a thousand. Yes, they had a complete support staff. But a few years later after the birth of two sons, he and his wife realized that they had to choose between neglecting the non-stop demands of their young sons, or neglecting the non-stop demands of their church community. They chose their sons. He resigned from full-time ministry.
– My own experience as wife, mother, and in active unpaid ministry for over 25 years.
I never said anything about Jesus brothers and sisters. Thou dost presume too much. The hard evidence of scripture is that Jesus had elder kin in the same extended household, his first cousins who were the sons of Joseph’s brother. He may also have had elder step-brothers from a prior marriage of Joseph. No scripture anywhere states that the “brothers of the Lord” were the natural-born sons of Jesus’ mother. Mary the mother of Jesus had no other children. We know this from three interactions in particular:
– James presumed on his right as elder brother to “call out” Jesus when he thought Jesus had gone too far. Had James been Jesus’ younger brother, no one would have allowed him to behave that way.
– When dying on the cross Jesus entrusted the care of His mother to John, a non-relative, which would have been a monstrosity if Jesus had younger brothers. James was not only uninsulted by this, he went on to be the leader of Jesus’ movement in Jerusalem.
– Under the cross we have “Mary mother of Jesus and her sister Mary.” The latter-named Mary is further identified under the cross in the other gospels as “Mary mother of James and Joses,” James and Joses of course being two of the named brothers who “called out” Jesus earlier.
(continued)
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Allweather
Guest
This statement proves that Zerinus has never met a religious. I have never known more balanced, better adjusted people than Catholic priests and nuns.
There are many different callings. Some are called to this type of life. Some are called to the vocation of marriage. Poor Zerinus should perhaps spend a few years growing up before he starts pronouncing such drivel (quoted above) as if it were truth.
Many, many years. As in maybe five years. Couldn’t be much more than that. I personally wouldn’t go so far as to call you a liar in this particular statement, but I do think you are exaggerating. At my age, “many, many years” , means 30 or more. In the case of a 17 year old, it probably doesn’t mean more than five.
I have. I’ve also been to many other types of churches, including buddhist temples. But rather than give you the long list of my experience in various types of churches, as well as my involvement in quasi-religious ceremonials, let me just cut to the chase and say that the LDS “church” activities I’ve witnessed are of no use whatever to anyone. They are nothing more than tearful, nonsensical “witness sessions.” There is no sacrament, no word of God, no good preaching. They are cold, boring, useless exercises in man-made cult. The cult of Joseph Smith, a 19th century science fiction writer-turned-false prophet who was shot to death for his sins.
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Nan_S
Guest
(continued)
On the other hand, I can speak from being the mother of several children, now all in their late teens, having worked a full-time outside job since before they were born, as well as spending countless hours every week in the official Church ministry both teaching and serving for 25 years, and at the same time earning a Masters’ degree and continuing to take formal classes in theology.
When my kids needed my full-time attention, they got it. I was both extremely grateful for and extremely appreciative of our priests and deacons who could step into my ministry roles without warning because they were not burdened with children.
Nan
I did not suggest you were lying about the dedication of your leadership. However, I notice you declined to answer the question about your own wife and children, which leads me to believe that you haven’t any. If such is the case your perspective, although idealistic and admirable, hasn’t met the fire-hose of real life 24/7 family demands coupled with extreme sleep deprivation.
On the other hand, I can speak from being the mother of several children, now all in their late teens, having worked a full-time outside job since before they were born, as well as spending countless hours every week in the official Church ministry both teaching and serving for 25 years, and at the same time earning a Masters’ degree and continuing to take formal classes in theology.
When my kids needed my full-time attention, they got it. I was both extremely grateful for and extremely appreciative of our priests and deacons who could step into my ministry roles without warning because they were not burdened with children.
You seem to be fond of hurling insults. It doesn’t help your cause. I’ve never questioned the dedication of your elders or bishops, nor cast allegations that they are disordered. I would appreciate the same consideration.
Nan
W
water
Guest
When people are in Heaven, the beauty of the Lord is enough for them not to think about earthly love.
Marriage in Heaven? sure, it happens - it is between you and God.
Marriage in Heaven? sure, it happens - it is between you and God.
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zerinus
Guest
I am sure that is true of many of them, perhaps even of most of them. But it is not of a disturbingly large number of them. A news item which I recall a few years ago stated that up to 50% of the seminarians in some Catholic seminaries have homosexual orientation. I did a search on the Internet to find a reference for it, and came across several:None of the men dedicated to God that I was thinking of as I wrote are or were ever locked up in a monastery. All of them live a normal, active life interacting with the community and laboring with their hands. Again, your continued characterization of Catholic clergy as either being “deceived,” “misguided,” or burdened with “emotional and psychological problems that prevent them from living a normal human life” is unChristian and highly insulting.
religioustolerance.org/hom_rcc.htm
catholicintl.com/epologetics/articles/pastoral/homosexual-priests-print.htm
snapnetwork.org/priest_stories/gay_half_of_clergy.htm
fordham.edu/halsall/pwh/lgbcathbib9.html
This is a much larger percentage than the average in the population. Why is it that the Catholic clerical office attracts such extraordinary numbers of people of this kind? I don’t know. I will let you find the answer to that question for yourself.
The LDS Church is organized differently. In the LDS Church a bishop or stake president does not take all the burden on himself alone. He has many others to assist him, and he delegates a lot of that responsibility to others which lifts a lot of the burden from him, and at the same time allows many others to become involved in the service of the church and receive the blessings that comes from such an involvement. Also, bishops typically serve for around 4-6 years and then are released, and others appointed in their place.
You believe that Mary remained a virgin all her life, and did not have any children after Jesus. That is what I was referring to. Your arguments to the contrary are unconvincing.
I surf the Net anonymously. I never talk about myself on the Internet!
And I also gave you examples of LDS people who have large families, responsible occupations, and at the same time responsible and time consuming callings in the Church, and manage to handle them without complaining. I offered you to go there and discover the truth of that for yourself.
My apologies. I did not intend to be insulting.
zerinus
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Allweather
Guest
More of Zerinus’ Team scholarly research. None of the sources given by him here do anything to support, let alone prove, his contention of the 50% figure. Nevertheless, one would have to be a complete idiot not to admit that there are problems in the western priesthood, as well as the non-priest ordained clergy among the Protestants, and even among the LDS leadership.
The percentage claimed by Zerinus Team is way exaggerated. The Catholic “clerical office” hardly attracts very many homosexuals, though it is my understanding that, in the past, homosexually oriented men who are living chaste lifestyles have been considered candidates for the priesthood. There probably should be a distinction between homosexuality and pedophilia. Most of the crimes committed by priests were pedophilic in nature, and not all of them homosexual, at least that is my understanding of it. This is probably too fine a distinction, however, for Zerinus, who starts with a preconception and hammers the “facts” into proper form to “prove” his point.
I’m sure no one here is questioning that the LDS church is different. Very different.
No, the Protestant theories that Mormons apparently share with Protestants regarding the perpetual virginity of Mary, the Mother of God, are ridiculous and completely unsupported by either Scripture or Tradition. This is one of those areas in which Mormons somehow arrived at the same interpretive conclusions as Protestants. Yet, Zerinus furiously denies any theological connection between the two religions. And it makes you wonder.
The Man in Black.I surf the Net anonymously. I never talk about myself on the Internet!
Um, hmm. No, they don’t complain. None of them ever leave this Mormon Heaven on Earth, do they Zerinus?
I suspect this is true. Zerinus doesn’t “intend to be insulting” but he usually is. This inattention to reality is a feature of people who have made a lifestyle out of ignoring reality; the reality of history, which teaches irrefutably that their religion is a lie, among other things. Once trained to ignore historical reality, they also tend to ignore the reality of how they appear to others.
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zerinus
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PaulDupre
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Nonsequitur! (look it up, Z).
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Mannyfit75
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Is it true that in Mormon doctrine that God, the Father had sex with Mary to conceived Jesus?
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PaulDupre
Guest
It depends on what you call Mormon doctrine. Each Mormon on this forum seems to have his or her own definition. These range from “everything a prophet declares in General Conference or in the Ensign magazine is doctrine” to “Only what is in canonized scripture is doctrine”. There is no official church definition.Is it true that in Mormon doctrine that God, the Father had sex with Mary to conceived Jesus?
But the doctrine that God the Father had physical sexual intercourse with TBV has been taught by LDS prophets since Brigham Young, who claimed that he and other Mormon leaders had been taught this doctrine by Joseph Smith. They also taught that Jesus was plurally married and had children and that Mormon leaders are direct descendents of Jesus and the apostles.
Many Mormons currently believe these teachings while others do not. It is certainly not required for Mormons to believe these things, but it gives powerful insight into the beliefs of the Mormon leaders.
God bless you,
Paul
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Mannyfit75
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That’s not even if Scripture and not even in the KJV. The Mormons are really adding false information. What a shame. tisk tisk
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Allweather
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Too bad these Mormon fellows don’t come equipped with a sense of humor. Or is that humour?
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Nan_S
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I don’t understand how they think this makes any sense. A woman who has had sexual intercourse with any man, even a god-man, is no longer a virgin.
If Jesus had been conceived through an act of intercourse, there would have been no Virgin and no Virgin Birth. Yes, their god could have waved his hand after the act and physically made her intact again, but that would not change the fact that she had “known man.”
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Allweather
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My personal opinion is that this antagonism towards the Blessed Virgin Mary, which unfortunately is shared by many Protestants, who most unfortunately gave unholy birth to the Mormon cult, is traceable back to the Genesis account of the fall of man. The serpent doesn’t like the woman. It stands to reason that the serpent will lash out in whatever way it can. Those who attach themselves to unholy cults may also attach themselves to unholy ideas about Mary. This demeaning of the Mother of God shows up in the Mormon opinion of women in general… that they are little more than property, to be passed from one to the other, gathered up in herds, threatened with “destruction” in case they don’t heel properly.
Is there a connection between the serpent and the cults? I don’t know. But I wouldn’t be surprised.
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chasjohn
Guest
Who was Jesus talking to when He said that there was no marriage in heaven? Was He not talking to the Sadducees? Were the Sadducees unbelievers? Sadducees would have had a civil [worldly] marriage which does end with death.
Anyone wanting direct information concerning the LDS Church’s position on Eternal Marriage, may want to visit this site: [see page 241]
lds.org/gospellibrary/materials/gospel/Start%20Here_01.pdf
Anyone wanting direct information concerning the LDS Church’s position on Eternal Marriage, may want to visit this site: [see page 241]
lds.org/gospellibrary/materials/gospel/Start%20Here_01.pdf
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