F
FCEGM
Guest
Are there not set formulae for the various endowment ceremonies in LDS temples?
- Status
R
rmcmullan
Guest
Yes, those are ordinances and as I mentioned, they have a set form. The words are used exclusively for those ordinances. They’re not really something you’d say in personal prayer!
P
PaulDupre
Guest
Same with the mass.
Paul
F
FCEGM
Guest
Precisely.
R
Rbt_Southwell
Guest
A
ApostateRLDS
Guest
he’s referring to the so-called ‘extermination order’ that was issued by Missouri’s Govenor Boggs during the 1838 civil war in Western Missouri between Mormons and non-Mormons.
C
Chris-WA
Guest
Other than the bizarre past teaching that God had sex with Mary in order to conceive Jesus, you can basically say that Mormons treat Mary like Protestants do–they see her simply as the vessel for the coming of the messiah. So you might hear something at Christmas time about Mary, but that’s it. Like most Protestant sects, Mormons fail to recognize Mary’s enormously important role as the arc of the new covenant and her position as queen of heaven and mother of all in the spiritual sense. Scripture is packed with references to Mary and her importance but for fear of sounding too Catholic many Protestants steer clear of her altogether. I always find it amusing when LDS speculate about “Heavenly Mother,” who is the wife of God the Father. They reason that God must be married and have one or more wives. But we Catholics know that God is not married, and also that we do have a mother in heaven, just not the way in which Mormons think of her.
R
rmcmullan
Guest
Yes, I do agree with this and the rest of your message in general, we do have an honest difference of opinion here. And I do appreciate it the honest and straight forward way you state it.
The only smallest change I would make to your post is from “bizarre past teaching” to “bizarre and unathorized past teaching”. For the record, I’ve been Mormon since 1979 and have never heard nor seen that particular teaching. I think we have an honest difference of opinion on the Immaculate Conception too but I’ve not seen anything definitive from LDS leaders on that. I know you guys get criticism for “venerating” Mary and the Saints but I’m okay with it, especially the way we “venerate” Joseph Smith.
G
GrandpaD
Guest
Rbt Southwell,
It is apparently not a well-known fact to you, that in 1833 the Governor of Missouri, Lilburn Boggs issued the order for all Mormons to leave the state, and put out an edict to exterminate Mormons and it was never removed from the laws of Missouri until less than 10 years ago(can’t remember exactly when) It was in all the newspapers and the present Governor of Missouri apologized to the Mormon Church for that law. Even the government of the United States sent troops to exterminate the Mormons, all other religions were up in arms against the Mormons. They tarred a feathered them and of course the famous Hahn’s Mill masacre took place, where the local mob drove the Mormons into the mill building and shot them point blank through the cracks between the logs then burned the building with the women, children and men still screaming inside. It was not an easy time for the early Mormons their Prophet Joseph Smith and his brother were murdered by a mob in Carthage Jail, and they were driven from place to place finally walking all the way across the plains to a place they could escape the rath of the mobs, the Salt Lake Valley.
Just to add to the original topic of this discussion, my wife is Mormon, so I pick her brain a bit. She is not a scholar of LDS history and knows her scriptures maybe a bit more than the average Catholic, but this is what she told me when I asked what Mormons thought of Mary.
The Mormons belief Mary was chosen of God and is the Mother of Jesus Christ(God’s Son) They hold her in high reverence and importance, but do not worship her as Catholics do. They believe she was most beautiful and pure among women and that it is a great honor, and only someone extremely special who has found highest favor in God’s eyes could be chosen to be the mother of His Son. They only know what the Bible says about Mary, so do not presume to know anything more than what the Holy Scripture tells about her.
They believe that Jesus Christ the Son of God, sits on the right hand of God, not Mary.
It is apparently not a well-known fact to you, that in 1833 the Governor of Missouri, Lilburn Boggs issued the order for all Mormons to leave the state, and put out an edict to exterminate Mormons and it was never removed from the laws of Missouri until less than 10 years ago(can’t remember exactly when) It was in all the newspapers and the present Governor of Missouri apologized to the Mormon Church for that law. Even the government of the United States sent troops to exterminate the Mormons, all other religions were up in arms against the Mormons. They tarred a feathered them and of course the famous Hahn’s Mill masacre took place, where the local mob drove the Mormons into the mill building and shot them point blank through the cracks between the logs then burned the building with the women, children and men still screaming inside. It was not an easy time for the early Mormons their Prophet Joseph Smith and his brother were murdered by a mob in Carthage Jail, and they were driven from place to place finally walking all the way across the plains to a place they could escape the rath of the mobs, the Salt Lake Valley.
Just to add to the original topic of this discussion, my wife is Mormon, so I pick her brain a bit. She is not a scholar of LDS history and knows her scriptures maybe a bit more than the average Catholic, but this is what she told me when I asked what Mormons thought of Mary.
The Mormons belief Mary was chosen of God and is the Mother of Jesus Christ(God’s Son) They hold her in high reverence and importance, but do not worship her as Catholics do. They believe she was most beautiful and pure among women and that it is a great honor, and only someone extremely special who has found highest favor in God’s eyes could be chosen to be the mother of His Son. They only know what the Bible says about Mary, so do not presume to know anything more than what the Holy Scripture tells about her.
They believe that Jesus Christ the Son of God, sits on the right hand of God, not Mary.
P
PaulDupre
Guest
Grandpa,
Where did you or your wife ever get the idea that Catholics worship Mary or believe that she sits at the right hand of God? We don’t.
Well, I know where your wife got it - from the Mormons. They teach all kinds of stuff about Catholics that is simply false, just as the Evangelicals do. When I was LDS, I was taught all kinds of anti-Catholic lies. Once I discovered that they were lies, it got me questioning all of Mormonism and that was the beginning of the end.
God bless,
Paul
Where did you or your wife ever get the idea that Catholics worship Mary or believe that she sits at the right hand of God? We don’t.
Well, I know where your wife got it - from the Mormons. They teach all kinds of stuff about Catholics that is simply false, just as the Evangelicals do. When I was LDS, I was taught all kinds of anti-Catholic lies. Once I discovered that they were lies, it got me questioning all of Mormonism and that was the beginning of the end.
God bless,
Paul
R
rmcmullan
Guest
There’s a difference between a mistake and a misunderstanding. I don’t think it’s just Mormons who fail to distinguish the differecne between venerate and worship. The Hail Mary really confuses the point. Jesus prayed only to His Father.
R
Rbt_Southwell
Guest
A
ApostateRLDS
Guest
.
They also took exception to being threatened by Joseph Smith and his followers(which is why they were driven from Jackson County), having an armed mob(Zion’s Camp) attempt to invade Jackson County, having Gallatin sacked, having war being declared on them and Mormon ‘apostates’ , and having ex-Mormons being burned out of their homes and what was left of their property plundered by the Danites.
S
sterryfamily
Guest
How would you possibly know?
P
PaulDupre
Guest
What is your problem with the Hail Mary?
The Hail Mary has two parts:
- Gabriel’s greeting as reported in Luke 1:28 and Elizabeth’s greeting as reported in Luke 1:42
- A request that she pray for us:
Which part do you object to - the biblical greeting or one Christian asking another to pray for him?
Paul
R
rmcmullan
Guest
I don’t object to the Hail Mary. I was trying to explain how it happens that people outside the Catholic church would get the idea that you worship Mary.
C
Chris-WA
Guest
In order to prove “unauthorized,” I think you would have to demonstrate some documentation that the church officially repudiated such teaching and corrected it. Silence on this issue today would not constitute a repudiation or correction, leaving the issue unresolved.
R
rmcmullan
Guest
Chris-WA, again I’d refer you to D&C 28. Unless it is specifically authorized, it is, uh, well, unauthorized.
SterryFamily, I think you are just being argumentative. On the cross, Jesus asked John to take care of his mother. If Jesus prayed to his mother, was it while she was still alive when he could have also spoke to her face to face? Did the resurrected Jesus pray to Mary instead of appearing to her? I think you might want to reconsider your question.
SterryFamily, I think you are just being argumentative. On the cross, Jesus asked John to take care of his mother. If Jesus prayed to his mother, was it while she was still alive when he could have also spoke to her face to face? Did the resurrected Jesus pray to Mary instead of appearing to her? I think you might want to reconsider your question.
R
RebeccaJ
Guest
rcmcmullan, I have been working at understanding the intercession of saints myself. The little bit I understand is this. Praying to a saint to intercede on one’s behalf is the same as asking a living relative to pray on one’s behalf. I know mormons and many Christian of all stripes do this. You ask your mother, “Mom, will you pray for me?” This is not praying to your mother.
My understanding is that by the fact that Mary is the Mother of God, she has especially strong intermediary influence, and thus, a lot of people ask her, as you would your own mother, to pray for them.
I don’t really know why this is so hard for mormons to grasp, but it is, and it took me a while, a lot of reading and studying, to “get it”. What clicked for me is something I read that described saints as Aunts and Uncles in the large community that is Catholicism. That community includes angels and souls that have passed on before. Mormons do the same thing, in a way, with all the work that is done for dead people. You believe that those people are part of one family, and call them brothers and sisters, and believe they exist in a hereafter. The difference is, the religious beliefs of mormonism is that the living do spiritual deeds for the dead. Catholics believe that the dead can do a spiritual deed for the living, that of praying for you, and interceding on your behalf.
A
Auntie_A
Guest
My response to believing that what Joseph Smith said was true is as follows:
I believe that there are truths in many religions and philosophies, but that does not make that religion or philosophy the Truth. JS said a lot of things that rang true for a group of people at a specific place and time in history. Forgive me, but so did Hitler, David Koresh, Jim Jones, L. Ron Hubbard…and 175 years from now there may be people who still believe that these men spoke The Truth because SOME of what they said rings true. Furthermore, the fact that some of their followers were, or are martyrs is still not enough to make their religion or philosophy true. This is so, no matter how embedded they are into popular culture, contemporary thoughts and values. My examples of erroneous leaders are extreme but the less obviously flawed founders tend more to muddle our thinking.
What I think many Catholics are expressing here on this forum is that our faith was founded on the Truth. Imperfect humans struggled and prayed to understand that Truth and live it (and still do struggle and pray). While the Church recognizes private revelation, our faith does not depend on it and,in most cases, we are highly skeptical. (Please refer to above list: “Hitler, Koresh”, etc.) Not all revelation is divine AND, in fact, over time such revelations can lead people far from the Truth.
For example, misunderstandings and falsehoods about the Virgin Mary can lead a lot of souls to hell. And by hell I mean both the eternal hell as well as the hell we now live in where we “pick and choose” our morality, depending on the weather or the latest Dan Brown or Steve Berry “book of revelations”.
I love my mormon and protestant friends and their fervency yet I was guided back to the Catholic church based on the quote attributed to Jackie Gleason: “I would rather be a bad Catholic than a good anything else.” I chose to struggle with the Truth expressed in the Catholic Church through centuries rather than feel comfortable with some of the easier," light" doctrines of other more recent sects. When I have an occasional moment of private revelation, I reach out to a catechism, priest, or scholar for consultation in order to be sure I am not heading too far off the highway into ImaginationLand. The responsibility is on me to drive well and follow the laws while moving closer to union with God; the pressure is off me having to learn or unlearn someone’s latest prophecy, revelation, or doctrine.
I believe that there are truths in many religions and philosophies, but that does not make that religion or philosophy the Truth. JS said a lot of things that rang true for a group of people at a specific place and time in history. Forgive me, but so did Hitler, David Koresh, Jim Jones, L. Ron Hubbard…and 175 years from now there may be people who still believe that these men spoke The Truth because SOME of what they said rings true. Furthermore, the fact that some of their followers were, or are martyrs is still not enough to make their religion or philosophy true. This is so, no matter how embedded they are into popular culture, contemporary thoughts and values. My examples of erroneous leaders are extreme but the less obviously flawed founders tend more to muddle our thinking.
What I think many Catholics are expressing here on this forum is that our faith was founded on the Truth. Imperfect humans struggled and prayed to understand that Truth and live it (and still do struggle and pray). While the Church recognizes private revelation, our faith does not depend on it and,in most cases, we are highly skeptical. (Please refer to above list: “Hitler, Koresh”, etc.) Not all revelation is divine AND, in fact, over time such revelations can lead people far from the Truth.
For example, misunderstandings and falsehoods about the Virgin Mary can lead a lot of souls to hell. And by hell I mean both the eternal hell as well as the hell we now live in where we “pick and choose” our morality, depending on the weather or the latest Dan Brown or Steve Berry “book of revelations”.
I love my mormon and protestant friends and their fervency yet I was guided back to the Catholic church based on the quote attributed to Jackie Gleason: “I would rather be a bad Catholic than a good anything else.” I chose to struggle with the Truth expressed in the Catholic Church through centuries rather than feel comfortable with some of the easier," light" doctrines of other more recent sects. When I have an occasional moment of private revelation, I reach out to a catechism, priest, or scholar for consultation in order to be sure I am not heading too far off the highway into ImaginationLand. The responsibility is on me to drive well and follow the laws while moving closer to union with God; the pressure is off me having to learn or unlearn someone’s latest prophecy, revelation, or doctrine.
- Status