Mormon's & Mary

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Now I do find this interesting. Leaving the topic of the OP aside, I am wondering if there is any room for the Mormon church to develop its own doctrine. I read things about the ECF that are very different from what the Catholc church currently believes and I don’t see anyone freaking out about that. For example, the Wikipedia entry on the Pre-existence of spirits notes a guy named Origen who I think is an ECF and he thought that was okay but it’s a strictly LDS belief nowadays.

Still, the LDS church operates on revelation and you would expect that the doctrine should come out perfect everytime if that’s right. On the other hand, maybe, because of man’s limited understanding, even revelation takes time to work. I am open on this topic. Majick, can you shed any light on this?

If you all decide that revelation can take time to work then you should be more sympathetic to changes in Mormon teachings. If you all decide it should come out right the first time then you’ve been under the influence of some ECF who were possibly renegades. A bit of a paradox, eh?
Well, the ‘revelation’ against smoking and drinking coffee sure didn’t take very long. FROM MORMON HISTORY BOOKS, Emma complained about the smoke and having to provide coffee at church meetings in their home, Joseph prayed on it, and voila’ !revelation - smoking and coffee is bad for you.
 
Ha, so you think McConkie was renegade. .
If I remember right, when McConkie first came out with ‘Mormon Doctrine’ he was reprimanded and almost excommunicated. He had to do a complete rewrite and get it approved to clear his position in the church.
 
That is an interesting speculation! One minor bit of detail overlooked: God is pure Spirit so ‘how could He have intercourse like any man!’ 😛

Why would the Creator have to rely on behaving like the created!
Mormons take it to heart when they read that God created us in His image. They truly believe He is a man just like you. They say, “As man is, God once was. As God is, man may become.”

Although I understand they are trying to back away from it now.
 
All of you who think I said we worship Mary, please disregard that thought. I thought I was saying that my LDS wife thinks we do, if you thought that I was saying that, I apologize for the misunderstanding. No matter how I explain to her, she does not understand our veneration of Mary, and I think never will. But, that does not mean I am agreeing with her. Whoa on attack Paul, you are a bit sensitive there. I think you should not take it so hard. and poor Rbt, that is not how it happened as much as you would like it to have happened that way about Missouri, you have been reading to much anti-Mormon literature. Get a fair and balanced view, even if you hate them, be fair.
Actually, Rbt’s view comes close to the truth. The popular myth that Mormons were innocent victims of religious persecution in Missouri does not come even remotely close to being historically accurate. It is more of a comic-book or Mel Brooks view of history.
 
That’s one thing LDS should be careful of. They rail against the rote prayers of “apostate Christianity”, yet their supposedly extemporaneous prayers are very rote, especially that one long hastily-spoken word at the end: “isaythesethingsnamejesuschristamen”. One would think the speaker has no idea what s/he is saying.

Let’s at least be honest that all public prayer is formulaic to some extent. We Catholics have just perfected the art. 🙂

God love you,
Paul
my wife says you are right. The LDS leaders are always telling the members to be sincere and thoughtful in their prayers and to stop being repeticious in prayer. The Lord probably gets very bored listening to the same thing over and over with no individual thought put behind the prayers. They are told to remember they are praying to the Father and He is listening and they should be specific in first thanking Him and requesting blessings on family and friends and self. But they must always close in the name of His Son Jesus Christ. That is something that does not change, but remains a specific important part of prayer. The form follows “The Lord’s Prayer” as the way that Jesus taught the people to pray. That is the form they use in the LDS church.
 
Actually, Rbt’s view comes close to the truth. The popular myth that Mormons were innocent victims of religious persecution in Missouri does not come even remotely close to being historically accurate. It is more of a comic-book or Mel Brooks view of history.
Read “Joseph Smith, Rough Stone Rolling” by Richard Lyman Bushman. I think you will find a fair and balanced view of the story, and will find he does not cover up anything in explaining exactly what happened in Mormon History. It is a very good book. I have read a lot of Anti-Mormon books and find them to be filled with half-truths that are twisted to the hatred felt by the writer.
It is easy to believe half Truths when you never read the truth.
I have been 8 years married to a Mormon and have never seen any of the horrendous things that Mormons are portrayed to practice and believe. I know many Mormons and have found them to be followers of Jesus Christ to the highest degree in service to their fellowman, member or not, it makes no difference. They are always first responders in any catastrophic event, with food, water, tents, workers, medicine etc. They work hand in hand with Catholic Charities to help people all over the world. If you still hate them then you are not a true Catholic and can not call yourself Christian.
 
Zerinus,

I’ve been waiting and waiting and waiting for you to answer this question for me.

How could there have been a GREAT APOSTASY where the Church was no where to be found on the earth, when Jesus told Simon, whose name He changed to Peter, that on him he was founding His Church and the gates of hell would not prevail against it? How could Joseph Smith have been told to start a new Church by Jesus Christ? Did Jesus lie? or was he mistaken?
 
:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
i have been chasing Zerinus for well over a week trying to get this one little question answered. I PM’d him/her? when I saw he was online and on this thread and told him/her to come answer my question. He/She signed off!! What is it about this question that is so scary??

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
 
I went to the Zerinus’s blog and I see HE has added his name as Zman, so I guess it is HE. My apologies for my confusion.
 
I had answered your question in my blog long before you asked. Here is the link:

zerinus.blogspot.com/2007/08/upon-this-rock-i-will-build-my-church.html

zerinus
That doesn’t cut it. I would like you to answer here so it may be discussed. I’m not looking for a lecture from you.

I notice that you don’t directly answer many things that are said to you. Your blog is a way to cut and paste from your various church documents without having to actually defend them to people who are able to put the smackdown on the distortions you post. Not that I am one of those, but I believe you are afraid to answer here.
 
The Prophet Joseph Smith made the following statement to a man who wondered why those who had left the Church fought so fiercely against it: “Before you joined this Church, you stood on neutral ground. When the gospel was preached, good and evil were set before you; you could choose either, or neither. There were two opposite masters inviting you to serve them. When you joined this Church, you enlisted to serve God. When you did that, you left the neutral ground, and you never can get back on to it. Should you forsake the Master you enlisted to serve, it will be by the instigations of the evil one, and you will follow his dictation and be his servant.” (in “Recollections of the Prophet Joseph Smith,” Juvenile Instructor, 15 Aug. 1892, 492)Those who leave the LDS Church, become doubly darkened in their minds, much more so than they had been before they joined it—and *“how great that darkness” will be!

*zerinus
Is that mormon doctrine?
 
If I remember right, when McConkie first came out with ‘Mormon Doctrine’ he was reprimanded and almost excommunicated. He had to do a complete rewrite and get it approved to clear his position in the church.
Now I didn’t know that. Very interesting. He was quite the scholar but sometimes being good makes it hard to be humble. He was probably a pretty good example of a free thinker who went too far and had to be reined in. We all have them. You probably have problems with renegade priests now and then.

That’s one of the big advantages of having well settled and defined doctrine, it resists changes from people who waver. In Conrad Grenobel college (where I once attended), the Mennonite professor told our class that something like 50% of the divinity students (I think mostly Protestant) doubted Christ’s divinity. It was unbelievably high. These are the people who will one day lead the church!
 
I never claimed to know you. I merely commented on what you had told me about yourself.zerinus
No, you went wide of anything I commented about, and applied your own prejudices, which have nothing to do with me whatsoever. Its all about you zerinus.
 
That doesn’t cut it. I would like you to answer here so it may be discussed. I’m not looking for a lecture from you.

I notice that you don’t directly answer many things that are said to you. Your blog is a way to cut and paste from your various church documents without having to actually defend them to people who are able to put the smackdown on the distortions you post. Not that I am one of those, but I believe you are afraid to answer here.
That blog is a direct answer to your question. I have created that Weblog precisely in order to avoid having to answer repeat questions. That particular question that you are asking is one that is asked of LDS all the time, and I got fed up with having to answer it over and over again. That is why I have answered it there, so that I won’t have to answer it again. If I were to answer it to you afresh, I would have to cut and paste it out of my blog, because I have nothing more to add to it than what I have said there.

zerinus
 
I was born and raised in the mormon church. Through all of the mormon church education system I was taught that God had sexual intercourse with Mary, just like any man has intercourse with his wife.

Today, mormons will say that those teachings were speculation. Well, I was taught a lot of speculation as doctrine apparently. As the saying goes, mormon doctrine is about the same as trying to nail Jell-0 to a wall.

Here are two links showing the two views:

exmormon.org/mormon/mormon385.htm
fairlds.org/Misc/Did_God_Have_Sex_with_Mary.html

Mormons believe their existing prophet to speak for God, literally. It was previous mormon prophets who were teaching this doctrine re: God having sex with Mary. The thing with yesterday’s mormon prophets, their once divine inspiration can be explained away as “speaking as a man and not for God”. It is up to the poor mormon followers to figure out who their prophet is speaking as. In the meantime, they have the “obey the prophet in all things” imperative beat into their heads at every moment.

But make no mistake, mormons do not believe anything remotely similar about God, Christ, the Holy Spirit or Mary. Mary is considered “an ordinary woman given an extraordinary task”. Mormons barely discuss her at all, except at Christmas.
To be fair, that’s the only time Mary makes a guest appearance for most Protestants.
I was raised Lutheran (now Orthodox), and if we could have had a birth story without a mother at Christmas, we would have.
The first time I became aware of Catholics was when my father (whose mother belonged to the Latin church) was wondering about a neighbor if they were Protestant or Catholic (wanted to give a religious gift). When I asked about the difference he said the Catholics say “hail Mary.” “Mary?” I asked. “Mary who?”

However,as you point out to call Mormons Protestants is to slur Protestants. If the Protestants are not on the same page, at least they’re in the same book.😃
 
That is an interesting speculation! One minor bit of detail overlooked: God is pure Spirit so ‘how could He have intercourse like any man!’ 😛

Why would the Creator have to rely on behaving like the created!
Ah, but you are applying Orthodox dogma about God being a Spirit, a nicety that the mormons aren’t burdened with. Some taught that God is Adam, who became divine. And you need a body to do that, according to Mr. Smith.

Beware angels of light.
 
Now I didn’t know that. Very interesting. He was quite the scholar but sometimes being good makes it hard to be humble. He was probably a pretty good example of a free thinker who went too far and had to be reined in. We all have them. You probably have problems with renegade priests now and then.

That’s one of the big advantages of having well settled and defined doctrine, it resists changes from people who waver. In Conrad Grenobel college (where I once attended), the Mennonite professor told our class that something like 50% of the divinity students (I think mostly Protestant) doubted Christ’s divinity. It was unbelievably high. These are the people who will one day lead the church!
To where?
 
RebeccaJ,

I think all of us have experienced that feeling that we may be “talking to nothing but air molecules” when we pray. Many saints and saintly people (such as Teresa of Avila and Mother Theresa) have admitted to periods, often years-long ones, of “spiritual dryness,” when they felt that they were getting nothing out of their prayer, that God was silent to them.

I guess we have to get beyond hanging our spiritual life entirely upon getting a “rush” out of our prayer, upon feelings and nothing else. If we can transcend the need always to “feel something” when we pray, we can train ourselves gradually to perceive God in the simplest, seemingly inconsequential, things, to hear Him even in the deepest silence, to see that He is truly all around us.
I have had this book lying around about Teresa of Avila that I haven’t read yet. I don’t know who she is, or the significance of her. I’m getting that she is looked up to as someone who was a catholic of all catholics or something. As “even” she had problems.

I went to RCIA last night with a new friend from catholic.com. 🙂 The subject was how God reveals himself to us. I can’t say that I understood it all, but it has given me a lot to think about.
 
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