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TexanKnight
Guest
that is very true. The pressure to go is immense
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NeuroTypical
Guest
I honestly don’t remember when I first heard about it - it was probably at a pretty early age - maybe early teens? I wanted to learn more about church history in my early 20’s, and I asked some active folks (they’d fit into the TBM category). They suggested a bio of Joseph Smith (written by a mormon) and the Work and the Glory series (fictionalized history written for an LDS audience) - both of them contained accounts of treasureseeking, polygamy, the banking scandal, the failed trip to sell the copyright, and a bunch of other stuff. True, the material was presented gently by believers, in a context that attempted to explain from a position of belief, but it was there. I hear folks claim that mormons hide their history and refuse to learn or teach the hard stuff. I had the exact opposite experience.
Then I found FARMS book review, which responded to just about every criticism in print, and I found various online forums where believers and critics got together to argue. I spent 10 years on those forums interacting and arguing, and sort of reached my everest in two ways: First, the contentious folks at the UK-based Reachout Trust countercult ministry admitted the possibility that I might actually be a saved Christian. Second, the opinion-provoking personality Prof. Daniel Peterson called one my my points “salient”. (I know, the second one isn’t much of an accomplishment, but I accepted a little self-indulgent ego-boost in a moment of weakness.) After those events, I noticed I was doing little more than copying and pasting from my file of apologetics, and the love of the argument sort of left me.
There is absolutely much available online that I was never taught in sunday school. My experience was full of instances like “Ok, I’ve always assumed something was a certain way, but now I find out it’s not that way.” And yes, I find LDS folks who believe some things I know are not true. I would expect this state of affairs to be true with just about any culture and important aspect of it. For example, people tell stories of switching their political beliefs after having similar experiences. For another example, I read all sorts of threads in other forums on this website, where Catholics are arguing with each other about what they should believe about various things and why.
But I’m sure you’d agree, not every “online fact” is actually true. The internet is full of people claiming stuff, when they don’t know the difference between facts, belief, truth, opinion, and knowledge.
Anyway, these days, I’m not really interested in arguing or trying to persuade. When I am, I go to mormondialogue.org. I came to these forums to understand my Catholic neighbor better, and answer the occasional direct question. I won’t be doing much more defending or aruging any more here.
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gracepoole
Guest
Yes, and this is the sad reality of the situation. Plunked down somewhere with no privacy for years at a time, removed from one’s family, and socially stigmatized if one doesn’t go. A culture that encourages missionary work sounds good – a culture that strong arms people into being missionaries sound horrid.
In the PBS “Frontline” special, “The Mormons,” the training for missionaries is discussed. TexanKnight, did you participate in a training center before being shipped off?
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KathleenGee
Guest
For all those seeking Truth, that is to be found in God alone. When we put our focus on people and rather than the Lord Himself, be we Catholic or of other beliefs, we put ourselves in jeopardy.
For those whose faith has been shaken, I think the best help is to read the Psalms in the Bible, the Lord is our rock and our strength. Do not put your trust in men. Only the Lord remains.
You get older. You may never leave your belief system. But you may have to move away, and into a place where strangers and newcomers are always seen as outsiders, and if there are many churches around you.
We must place our trust in God alone. When we are Catholic we are to keep our eyes on Christ, His Word and His sacraments, as the times are always treacherous, and when things seem to be going our way, they usually are not.
A Dominican told me he hadn’t suffered for 3 months, and then he realized he was not on the right track. The Cross is our way to Christ, and we must die to ourselves daily and pick up our cross, to live a more supernatural life. It is not about our way of looking at things, it is about the Lord’s and His new life that aways us…if only we can renounce ourselves daily.
Put your faith in the Lord, praise and glorify Him all the day, and you will find yourself more and more on firm footing and a restored faith.
For those whose faith has been shaken, I think the best help is to read the Psalms in the Bible, the Lord is our rock and our strength. Do not put your trust in men. Only the Lord remains.
You get older. You may never leave your belief system. But you may have to move away, and into a place where strangers and newcomers are always seen as outsiders, and if there are many churches around you.
We must place our trust in God alone. When we are Catholic we are to keep our eyes on Christ, His Word and His sacraments, as the times are always treacherous, and when things seem to be going our way, they usually are not.
A Dominican told me he hadn’t suffered for 3 months, and then he realized he was not on the right track. The Cross is our way to Christ, and we must die to ourselves daily and pick up our cross, to live a more supernatural life. It is not about our way of looking at things, it is about the Lord’s and His new life that aways us…if only we can renounce ourselves daily.
Put your faith in the Lord, praise and glorify Him all the day, and you will find yourself more and more on firm footing and a restored faith.
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truthseeker32
Guest
As someone who attended a university with a substantial Mormon population, both among the student body and faculty, I found that, when it comes to LDS apologetics, there are three types of people:
First, there are those who, regardless of what they find, or what the evidence suggests, will remain a committed and faithful Mormon. They look to apologetics to bolster what they have already committed themselves to. The best argument in the world wouldn’t change their mind. To be fair I am sure there are Catholics like this as well.
Second, there are those who are more open to the truth who in the end remain Mormon, but have a much more unorthodox faith than they began with. For example, I know two LDS history professors who still identify as Mormon, but neither believe it is the most true faith in the world. They stay because they don’t think there is anything better. My uncle writes for Sunstone and has admitted to me in private that, while he still goes to church and holds callings, is an agnostic. Probably the most significant is my good friend, an LDS seminary teacher that has told me that he is planning on converting to Catholicism.
Third, there are those who are open to truth, and decide it is only worth remaining faithful if it is true. I personally fall into this category. I didn’t care much for the culture and am perfectly happy, if not more happy, with my new life outside the church. Thus when I determined that LDS claims didn’t hold up to historical or philosophical scrutiny I left.
I hate to be blunt, but those who actually find FAIR and Maxwell Institute apologetics persuasive need to take some logic classes and read up on Christian history. If I had a nickel for every time I found a fallacious or historically distorted argument in LDS apologetics I would have at least a dollar
First, there are those who, regardless of what they find, or what the evidence suggests, will remain a committed and faithful Mormon. They look to apologetics to bolster what they have already committed themselves to. The best argument in the world wouldn’t change their mind. To be fair I am sure there are Catholics like this as well.
Second, there are those who are more open to the truth who in the end remain Mormon, but have a much more unorthodox faith than they began with. For example, I know two LDS history professors who still identify as Mormon, but neither believe it is the most true faith in the world. They stay because they don’t think there is anything better. My uncle writes for Sunstone and has admitted to me in private that, while he still goes to church and holds callings, is an agnostic. Probably the most significant is my good friend, an LDS seminary teacher that has told me that he is planning on converting to Catholicism.
Third, there are those who are open to truth, and decide it is only worth remaining faithful if it is true. I personally fall into this category. I didn’t care much for the culture and am perfectly happy, if not more happy, with my new life outside the church. Thus when I determined that LDS claims didn’t hold up to historical or philosophical scrutiny I left.
I hate to be blunt, but those who actually find FAIR and Maxwell Institute apologetics persuasive need to take some logic classes and read up on Christian history. If I had a nickel for every time I found a fallacious or historically distorted argument in LDS apologetics I would have at least a dollar
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Marie5890
Guest
The challenge for people leaving the LDS faith however, is that they take their experience with Mormonism and place it all Christainity.
Most former Mormons think anyone going from Mormonism into another Christian denomination, esp Catholicism, as nothing less than a MAJOR fool. From the frying pan into the fire.
They have put the BoM under a microscope. They end up doing the same to the Bible. Same microscope same cynicism.
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andrewstx
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Actually it’s only two years, not years and years. But it is hard going you and your parents you usually scrimp and save for years to pay for a missionary.
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gracepoole
Guest
Sorry – I didn’t mean to indicate that it was more than two years. But two years is two years.
I’m going to be honest here – I love mommy blogs and my favorites are Mormon mommy blogs. I follow several Catholic mom blogs, too, and they’re definitely inspiring. But there is a joy expressed by the Mormon moms I follow that’s largely absent from most Catholic mom blogs (if you’ve seen www.nieniedialogues.blogspot.com or read Heaven Is Here, you know what I mean). I don’t mean that to be a generalization about all Mormon mothers (Utah does have the highest rate for antidepressant prescriptions for women, after all) or all Catholic mothers. But I usually feel affirmed as a mother by the Mormon blogs. I look forward to their new posts. There’s a part of me that doesn’t want these women to read more about their faith, or at least enough to raise serious questions. Not altogether proud of that…
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RebeccaJ
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I feel the same way about my very LDS parents. Siblings, not so much.
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RebeccaJ
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Yeah, I’ve tried to understand this one for over a decade now, starting when my exmo sibling became a TBM. Mormons just believe, and like what belief does for them, is the only answer I’ve come up with. Why stop believing when you know it will rock your world? Just believe, and everything will be OK.
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Captain_America
Guest
The Mormons should well be proud of their commitment to family life in this. . . weird age. . . that we live in.
Never been Mormon. I did read a biography of Joseph Smith, put out by Penguin, Robert Remini the author, that woke me up a bit to some of the more unusual aspects of Mormonism.
And there’s an ex-Mormon website, which I’ve read some time ago, and which, due wholly to comments by former and challenged Mormons, make me really doubt what’s going on with the LDS movement and theology.
What’s tough with anyone is changing the emotional commitment/feeling that they’ve had toward their faith. That’s hard stuff.
Never been Mormon. I did read a biography of Joseph Smith, put out by Penguin, Robert Remini the author, that woke me up a bit to some of the more unusual aspects of Mormonism.
And there’s an ex-Mormon website, which I’ve read some time ago, and which, due wholly to comments by former and challenged Mormons, make me really doubt what’s going on with the LDS movement and theology.
What’s tough with anyone is changing the emotional commitment/feeling that they’ve had toward their faith. That’s hard stuff.
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lynnettejane
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God love you Irishman, I know what you mean, it is shattering, trust in God, will be praying for you and others in your situation
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Marie5890
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For Mormons who stay faithful and reason doesnt matter, being Mormon is a very happy way of life…
Truly, BLISSFULLY ignorant…
It’s about being happy. Mormons, who remain naive, are happy, truly happy people…
=====its all about emotion=happiness…
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njlisa
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I know Mormons who are very committed to their faith. They extensively study the Bible and LDS scriptures. They believe in and love God. They believe in Christ’s atonement. They are kind and generous, loving people. When Hurricane Katrina hit, they were the first on the scene, offering assistance. By their fruits you shall know them. And they show some pretty good fruits. They follow their own lights, as they have been taught.For Mormons who stay faithful and reason doesnt matter, being Mormon is a very happy way of life…
Truly, BLISSFULLY ignorant…
It’s about being happy. Mormons, who remain naive, are happy, truly happy people…
=====its all about emotion=happiness…
Catechism 843:
The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as “a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life.”
We should all be as righteous as good Mormons.
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twopekinguys
Guest
The only problem with all of this is that they don’t follow/worship the same God as Christians.
They are not Trinitarian, and have a variety of non Biblical beliefs, such as proxy baptisms of the dead.
ETA: You realize that the Catholic Church does not recognize mormons as Christian right?
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twopekinguys
Guest
That’s one of the reasons for calling SLC and the surrounding area “happy valley”.For Mormons who stay faithful and reason doesnt matter, being Mormon is a very happy way of life…
Truly, BLISSFULLY ignorant…
It’s about being happy. Mormons, who remain naive, are happy, truly happy people…
=====its all about emotion=happiness…
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njlisa
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I do realize that, which is why I included the paragraph on “other religions” rather than “separated brethren.”
Latter-day Saints base their belief in proxy baptism on these verses from 1 Corinthians 15 28-29:
When everything is subjected to him, then the Son himself will [also] be subjected to the one who subjected everything to him, so that God may be all in all. Otherwise, what will people accomplish by having themselves baptized for the dead?* If the dead are not raised at all, then why are they having themselves baptized for them?
I’m not saying that their interpretation is right. I’m just saying that is their biblical basis.
I just don’t understand why we need to bust their chops so much when they are good people living by the lights they are given and in fact are being prepared for reception of the Gospel. I’ve never been a Mormon, but I can appreciate the good in them.
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lynnettejane
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A question for neurotypical, your prophets are in possession of the papyri that are said to be the source of the Book of Abraham and the Book of Joseph. Why don’t they translate the papyri that are untranslated? Don’t you think that they will have had Egyptologists study these papyri privately and report to them what they really say? The BoA papyri have been repeatedly discredited, yet they still try to convince the world that JS translated them and the BoA is the result. Don’t you think it is possible that your leaders know very well that the BoA has absolutely no basis in these papyri and they are not translations but fiction? And this work treated as scripture is anything but,and they are holding out on the faithful because of the consequences for the church and themselves. I do find it difficult to understand how this can be ignored by someone such as your self who claims to have extensively researched his faith, your leaders have the chance to prove themselves prophets seers and revelators, or come clean, admit they are not, and neither was JS, because that surely is the only alternative.
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lynnettejane
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Then why so much prozac??
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njlisa
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Why in the name of Christian charity do we find it necessary to ridicule Mormons? I fail to see the purpose. If we want to win these people to the Catholic faith, we should welcome them with love and compassion.
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