Mormons search the web and find doubt

[Boulder257]

There are lots of resources. For me, the website MormonThink really helped me a lot. It is pretty objective and gives both sides of the argument with plenty of references to FAIR, FARMS, Journal of Discourses and many other sources from the Mormon church. They don’t make it up.

Although I have not read these books, I have heard that they have been important for other people - No Man Knows My History by Fawn Brodie, An Insider’s View of Mormon Origins by Grant Palmer, In Sacred Loneliness by Todd Compton.

I found Tom Phillips’ experience with the Second Annointing and communications with Jeffrey Holland very compelling. mormonthink.com/tomphillips.htm#story

There is also A Letter to a CES Director, which is quite comprehensive, and is also found on MormonThink. mormonthink.com/personalstories/A_Letter_to_a_CES_Director.pdf

I also read Richard Bushman’s Rough Stone Rolling. Even though Bushman gives Joseph Smith the benefit of the doubt big time, it revealed a lot of things about early Mormon church history that I had no idea about (polyandry, peep stone, multiple versions of the first vision, etc). This book lead me to do additional research, particularly on polyandry.

Nice recommendation. I have actually read that letter to a CES director and found quite a bit of it to be useful.

 

[LivingWaters7]

2013 FAIR Conference in Provo Utah. August 1-2, 2013

One of the items under discussion: Michael R. Ash, Shaken Faith Syndrome, Part Deux

I think this is partly in response to the NYT article.

Maybe, or maybe not. Guess we’ll see when the transcripts come out. But Shaken Faith Syndrome is actually a book of his, and he recently published a second edition, which I own and read.

But I did notice that at the Conference the topic of doubt is discussed at least twice.

 

[LivingWaters7]

In relation to this thread: suppose I had a mormon friend who was very intent on studying the Mormon Church and it’s teachings. What sources do you recommend best present the arguments against Mormonism? I ask because I wouldn’t want to provide him with weak or insulting arguments. This “friend” is an attorney and an incredinly intelligent mormon born into the covenant. He is not going to accept some weak arguments.

One of the best places, as already mentioned, is the Mormon Think website. I highly encourage you to share this with your friend. It is one of the best critical websites.

mormonthink.com/

 

[twopekinguys]

A couple of months ago, the Mormon church announced on their website that they would post papers addressing the big issues. Of course, nothing has come out yet. I’m still waiting…

I think Elder Perry’s mythical manuscript in his briefcase that addresses all of these issues was taken up to heaven by the angel Moroni.

Isn’t that something that is seen frequently also. Ignore it, and it will go away type of thing?

 

[twopekinguys]

One of the best places, as already mentioned, is the Mormon Think website. I highly encourage you to share this with your friend. It is one of the best critical websites.

mormonthink.com/

I would add that the site LW is recommending is also operated by mormons, that want to believe, but, are having trouble resolving some of these issues.

It is a very even objective, non biased site, I give them alot of credit for that.

 

[iepuras]

Isn’t that something that is seen frequently also. Ignore it, and it will go away type of thing?

Yes, definitely. It is becoming increasingly difficult for the suits in SLC to do. Even very faithful members are questioning the decision to build City Creek Mall when those billions of dollars could have provided clean water, education and health care for a lot of people in the world.

 

[iepuras]

It is a very even objective, non biased site, I give them alot of credit for that.

I give them a lot of credit for this too. When I was a believer and first found the site, I was impressed with their efforts to be objective. Of course, it was difficult to stay a believer for very long because Mormonism flies in the face of reason once you learn the truth about Joseph Smith and Brigham Young.

I credit the article on polygamy on Mormon Think for getting me out. The rest is just icing on the cake!

Oh, and can I add how incredibly happy my family and I are? My marriage is actually much stronger now because we went through this together.

 

[twopekinguys]

I give them a lot of credit for this too. When I was a believer and first found the site, I was impressed with their efforts to be objective. Of course, it was difficult to stay a believer for very long because Mormonism flies in the face of reason once you learn the truth about Joseph Smith and Brigham Young.

I credit the article on polygamy on Mormon Think for getting me out. The rest is just icing on the cake!

Oh, and can I add how incredibly happy my family and I are? My marriage is actually much stronger now because we went through this together.

 

[Robin_des_Bois]

The internet is Mormonism’s worst enemy I think.

I think atheists say the same thing about religion.

 

[Marie5890]

I think atheists say the same thing about religion.

To look at religion in America, and the web’s outreach, I would say atheists must be disappointed.

 

[Celtic_Maiden]

As a Convert from the Jewish Religion I want to say Welcome to the Catholic Church, it will bring you such joy and happiness.

Catholicism is Christianity at its fullest expression.
Catholicism is pre denominational We are the Originals.

 

[pinkprincess]

I find it interesting that people can grow in spirituality, heading in such opposite directions. I started looking online into criticisms of my faith back in the mid-90’s. It was a totally opposite experience than what’s being shared here. I found interacting with criticisms and resolving them to my satisfaction, to be a learning, growing experience that clarified and solidified my beliefs.

Do more people learn stuff online and doubt or leave? I don’t know. I’m sure there are people doing it in most any religion. I do know that I’m hardly the only LDS person out there to plumb the depths of LDS criticism, and not only remain faithful, but grow in faith.

Confirmation bias?

 

[pinkprincess]

The Mormons should well be proud of their commitment to family life in this. . . weird age. . . that we live in.
.

However, when a mormon finally finds out that the lds is not true church and decide to leave, things can get pretty ugly. I’ve read many stories about broken family relationships because the mormon family simply disapproves of their relative’s decision to leave mormonism.

I think family is emphasized and given much importance as long as all of you submit to the lds teachings.

 

[invisible_man]

The LDS Apostles know the truth and are hiding it from their flock. .

I don’t know if this is true. I would hope not. Most of these apostles have many children and many more grandchildren. If your statement were true, they would also be hiding it from their families and extended families. I tend to doubt that they are hiding it. Most likely, it is an open question just were the hill is located. I do know that there has always been a debate about where the hill is located. Some have said New York and others have said that it is somewhere else.

I think that mormons do not know where the actual hill is regardless of the statements that have been given by LDS leaders.

 

[invisible_man]

However, when a mormon finally finds out that the lds is not true church and decide to leave, things can get pretty ugly. I’ve read many stories about broken family relationships because the mormon family simply disapproves of their relative’s decision to leave mormonism.

I think family is emphasized and given much importance as long as all of you submit to the lds teachings.

This may happen. But I also know that many mormon families have members that are no longer members or do not attend church and these familes still have a relationship with that child or relative. It is not an open and shut case. It does depend on the family. We also need to remember that we are not just dealing with the parents but also with brothers and sisters and most likely these siblings would keep up a relationship.

Mormons who do break off relations with their exmember child or relative are not following the teachings of the LDS church. I have never heard any leader of the LDS church say that family members should be shunned if they leave the faith.

 

[invisible_man]

I would add that the site LW is recommending is also operated by mormons, that want to believe, but, are having trouble resolving some of these issues.

It is a very even objective, non biased site, I give them alot of credit for that.

I don’t know if it is operated by mormons. My guess is that it is operated by exmormons or liberal mormons who may no longer believe. Having looked at the site, I see that it may be bias against the LDS church. It does seems to give the two positions but it does seem weighted on the side of critique. I have not looked at all the pages on the site so I could be wrong.

 

[Porknpie]

I don’t know if this is true. I would hope not. Most of these apostles have many children and many more grandchildren. If your statement were true, they would also be hiding it from their families and extended families. I tend to doubt that they are hiding it. Most likely, it is an open question just were the hill is located. I do know that there has always been a debate about where the hill is located. Some have said New York and others have said that it is somewhere else.

I think that mormons do not know where the actual hill is regardless of the statements that have been given by LDS leaders.

Well LDS leaders start with Joseph Smith himself who said it was exactly where the LDS Church owns it’s property and where LDS leaders have said it was.

So what is the answer here?

1. I can believe what Joseph Smith said … Hill Cumorah is true
2. I can not believe what Joseph Smith said … Hill Cumorah is not true

Huge implications for LDS beliefs.

The LDS leaders know the answer is #2) … otherwise they would have dug up the hill and shown the world the LDS teaching are true. And as #2) is true, I can’t believe anything else that Joseph Smith said was true.

There never was an apostasy in the Catholic Church, let alone a Great Apostasy…

 

[Porknpie]

Well LDS leaders start with Joseph Smith himself who said it was exactly where the LDS Church owns it’s property and where LDS leaders have said it was.

So what is the answer here?

1. I can believe what Joseph Smith said … Hill Cumorah is true
2. I can not believe what Joseph Smith said … Hill Cumorah is not true

Huge implications for LDS beliefs.

The LDS leaders know the answer is #2) … otherwise they would have dug up the hill and shown the world the LDS teaching are true. And as #2) is true, I can’t believe anything else that Joseph Smith said was true.

There never was an apostasy in the Catholic Church, let alone a Great Apostasy…

Listen to the Prophet Hinckley speaking on polygamy and decide which lies he is committing? .Link here. It’s interesting that he exclaims the importance of keeping to the laws of the land when Joseph Smith himself had 34 wives…himself not keeping to the laws of the land. Then there was Brigham Young…not committing to the laws of the land.

From Wiki on the word LIE.

**A lie is a false statement to a person or group made by another person or group who knows it is not the whole truth, intentionally[1]. **

A barefaced (or bald-faced) lie is one that is obviously a lie to those hearing it.

A Big Lie is a lie which attempts to trick the victim into believing something major which will likely be contradicted by some information the victim already possesses, or by their common sense.

An exaggeration (or hyperbole) occurs when the most fundamental aspects of a statement are true, but only to a certain degree.

A fabrication is a lie told when someone submits a statement as truth, without knowing for certain whether or not it actually is true.

**A half-truth **is a deceptive statement that includes some element of truth. The statement might be partly true, the statement may be totally true but only part of the whole truth, or it may utilize some deceptive element, such as improper punctuation, or double meaning, especially if the intent is to deceive, evade, blame or misrepresent the truth.

An honest lie (or confabulation) is characterized by verbal statements or actions that inaccurately describe history, background, and present situations.

 

[twopekinguys]

I don’t know if it is operated by mormons. My guess is that it is operated by exmormons or liberal mormons who may no longer believe. Having looked at the site, I see that it may be bias against the LDS church. It does seems to give the two positions but it does seem weighted on the side of critique. I have not looked at all the pages on the site so I could be wrong.

You should look the site over in more detail.

They are very forthright in the fact that they are current mormons.

They also make it very clear that they want to stay believing mormons, but they have trouble resolving these big issues. In that light, of course they are going to seem critical. They want answers.

Read more here, and here.

ETA: How long have you been mormon?

 

[invisible_man]

Well LDS leaders start with Joseph Smith himself who said it was exactly where the LDS Church owns it’s property and where LDS leaders have said it was.

I don’t want to derail the thread. I was just challenging your assumption about how these men are lying or hiding it. They also have families in the LDS church I can’t see these men lying to their children and grandchildren. I suppose that it is not impossible when human nature is considered but highly unlikely.

I can look at it in two ways. Joseph Smith wrote the book of mormon and said where the hill was located or he didn’t write the book of mormon and assumed where the hill was located. I think that the plates were found on that hill that the LDS owns the property of. Whether a final battle took place there is debatable.

However, all this is off topic about Mormons searching the web and finding doubt.