Mormons search the web and find doubt

[invisible_man]

Mormons have been always finding doubt in their faith. I think that this started from the very beginning of Mormonism. Some early Mormons doubted Joseph Smith and left Mormonism. This would happen because they did not believe that he acted like a prophet. Many Mormons left the LDS church after the Kirkland Banking Crisis. Other Mormons left for other reasons along the way.

The early newspapers at that time of early LDS history will filled with disparaging articles against the Mormons, especially those newspapers near Mormon communities. These articles attempted to cast doubt against the Mormons and succeeded to some extent.

What is happening now is not new to LDS history. Back in the early days, LDS apostles would leave Mormonism and become very antimormon. We see this quite often in early Mormon history. However, Mormonism survived such events and will probably continue to do so if Mormon history is anything to go on.

 

[invisible_man]

This is the hard dichotomy of the LDS. Their historical record is beyond problematic but many of them live lives centered on God and family. While they hunker down for Family Home Evening every Monday, most Catholics I know devote far less time to quality family time. I don’t know any Catholics under the age of 30 who’ve devoted themselves to missionary work. Some aspects of the LDS are inspiring. Hopefully those who leave the church take these qualities with them.

This is well stated about your disire that former Mormons continue with certain qualities of Mormonism such as the family value. I also hope that they continue to be family centered and continue to live lives centered in God and family. The LDS can be an inspiring people in how many of them live their lives.

I think that it is sad when anyone begins to doubt their faith. It can be a problematic time for those people. Also, when people in general begin to doubt the existence of God after a lifetime in believing in Him. It must be also a difficult time for those people. Our hearts should go out to them.

 

[Porknpie]

I can look at it in two ways. Joseph Smith wrote the book of mormon and said where the hill was located

In which case there is nothing there - there are no remains of a great glorious battle and Joseph’s testimony is in error and the book of mormon can not be trusted.

or he didn’t write the book of mormon and assumed where the hill was located.

Then if he did not write the book of mormon then who did and why would I trust that testimony?

Either way then, one can not trust the Book of Mormon. This is what Mormons are learning through the Internet. The result is that they are understanding there never was an apostasy in the Catholic Church, rather the Church was guided by the Holy Spirit to all Truth as Christ himself promised.

I think that the plates were found on that hill that the LDS owns the property of.

you think based on what? The BoM is in error and can not be trusted…

Whether a final battle took place there is debatable.

exactly… Mormon leaders know conclusively that no battle took place here. Not saying so and correcting what Joseph Smith and all other previous prophets said is deceptive and a form of lie…

However, all this is off topic about Mormons searching the web and finding doubt.

perhaps but it’s a great example of the doubt Mormons are finding on the web. The web is adding to the intellect … Whether the “will” responds and chooses the truth is another matter. Many ex-Mormons on CAF have chosen to follow the truth.

 

[invisible_man]

Listen to the Prophet Hinckley speaking on polygamy and decide which lies he is committing? .[/INDENT]

I can’t look into this elderly man’s heart and soul. Watching it, he does seem a little confused at times that can be because of age. How old was he at the time of this interview?

 

[invisible_man]

perhaps but it’s a great example of the doubt Mormons are finding on the web. The web is adding to the intellect … Whether the “will” responds and chooses the truth is another matter. Many ex-Mormons on CAF have chosen to follow the truth.

People who search the web about their faith can find doubt. I remember when Richard Dawkins’ book came out in praise of atheism and how many believers in God were influenced by that book as they kindled it or read the paper version. Mormons are no exception when it comes to doubt. It is apart of their history.

However, now the LDS church is addressing the issue of members who are now finding reasons to doubt because of the internet. I think that this can be a good thing for them to do. I think that the LDS leaders were too slow to react and underestimated the internet.

 

[Darryl_B]

People who search the web about their faith can find doubt. I remember when Richard Dawkins’ book came out in praise of atheism and how many believers in God were influenced by that book as they kindled it or read the paper version. Mormons are no exception when it comes to doubt. It is apart of their history.

However, now the LDS church is addressing the issue of members who are now finding reasons to doubt because of the internet. I think that this can be a good thing for them to do. I think that the LDS leaders were too slow to react and underestimated the internet.

Anything Richard Dawkins writes is fairly good kindling in the paper version.

But that aside I would like to know why you think Mormon history is unable to survive the Internet? Most of the information I have read on the internet is written by ex-Mormons who developed their own doubt of the history and mystery while they were still mormon and then have the opportunity to publish it. Its like “the call is coming from inside the house”.

I am also curious how mormon leadership can stop the information availability, are they planning to block websites from their members? (Download the mormon tool-bar). Or are they planning cover-up rebuttal information? ie damage control.

 

[invisible_man]

Anything Richard Dawkins writes is fairly good kindling in the paper version.

But that aside I would like to know why you think Mormon history is unable to survive the Internet? Most of the information I have read on the internet is written by ex-Mormons who developed their own doubt of the history and mystery while they were still mormon and then have the opportunity to publish it. Its like “the call is coming from inside the house”.

I think that Mormon history will survive the internet. I see no reason why it shouldn’t. I was trying to make a point that doubt has always been in Mormon history from the earliest days of the LDS church. The Mormon Church has always survived and become stronger. I can see this in the early 1830’s and after the banking crisis of 1837 when scores of Mormons left the LDS church.

The Mormon Church is now confronting it by addressing the issues. They are publishing the Joseph Smith Papers. Historians can have access to all of Joseph Smith’s work and history. I also think that the LDS church will publish more information in other venues. The LDS church will not be blocking any sites that are critical of the LDS faith to my knowledge.

 

[Darryl_B]

I think that Mormon history will survive the internet. I see no reason why it shouldn’t. I was trying to make a point that doubt has always been in Mormon history from the earliest days of the LDS church. The Mormon Church has always survived and become stronger. I can see this in the early 1830’s and after the banking crisis of 1837 when scores of Mormons left the LDS church.

The Mormon Church is now confronting it by addressing the issues. They are publishing the Joseph Smith Papers. Historians can have access to all of Joseph Smith’s work and history. I also think that the LDS church will publish more information in other venues. The LDS church will not be blocking any sites that are critical of the LDS faith to my knowledge.

Do you think that publishing the Joseph Smith Papers (and I have to confess that I have no idea what they are) will be enough? Have you read the Joseph Smith Papers? Have they been kept secret all this time?

 

[zaffiroborant]

I think that it is sad when anyone begins to doubt their faith. It can be a problematic time for those people.

While a nice thought I have trouble believing in the sincerity behind it particularly when it’s expressed by men in the LDS church. Men who probably spent two years of their lives doing nothing but working toward causing that doubt in others, and finding that doubt to be an occasion for happiness and celebration not sadness.

 

[twopekinguys]

I don’t want to derail the thread. I was just challenging your assumption about how these men are lying or hiding it. They also have families in the LDS church I can’t see these men lying to their children and grandchildren. I suppose that it is not impossible when human nature is considered but highly unlikely.

I can look at it in two ways. Joseph Smith wrote the book of mormon and said where the hill was located or he didn’t write the book of mormon and assumed where the hill was located. I think that the plates were found on that hill that the LDS owns the property of. Whether a final battle took place there is debatable.

However, all this is off topic about Mormons searching the web and finding doubt.

Maybe this information from a former mormon will help you.

Apostacy is the greatest sin in Mormonism. Greater than murder. Because they are the One True Church of Christ, no other church matters. You can leave those churches but you can’t leave Mormonism. Some ex Mormons describe it as the Hotel California - you can check out any time you like but you can never leave. All other churches are wrong to them. Some of the high up leaders get what is referred to as a Second Anointing, which is basically their ticket into the celestial kingdom. They are told they can commit any sin except apostacy and still get in. This is why the Mormon apostles can lie with a straight face. They are getting to the celestial kingdom no matter what except for that little thing called apostacy.

When I told my parents I no longer believed, they acted as if I admitted to being a serial killer. Really? I’m your daughter for crying out loud! Things are slowly getting better with them. To Mormons, nothing is more important than the church, not even family. They covenant in the temple to give everything to the church, not to God. To the church. This is why often families will shun and spouses will leave otherwise good marriages and file for divorce. All because someone doesn’t believe. It sickening.

Also, how long have you been mormon? I asked this earlier but you either didn’t see it, or you are evading answering.

 

[iepuras]

I think that Mormon history will survive the internet. I see no reason why it shouldn’t. I was trying to make a point that doubt has always been in Mormon history from the earliest days of the LDS church. The Mormon Church has always survived and become stronger. I can see this in the early 1830’s and after the banking crisis of 1837 when scores of Mormons left the LDS church.

The Mormon Church is now confronting it by addressing the issues. They are publishing the Joseph Smith Papers. Historians can have access to all of Joseph Smith’s work and history. I also think that the LDS church will publish more information in other venues. The LDS church will not be blocking any sites that are critical of the LDS faith to my knowledge.

How are Mormon leaders addressing the issues exactly? If letters are written to SLC, they are sent to bishops and stake presidents to address locally. My stake president’s answer was don’t pay any attention to the history, read the BOM and pray. He told me that the history is irrelevant in knowing the truth. My bishop said absolutely nothing. I’m sorry, history is very important in determining whether or not I should believe Joseph Smith. A couple of months ago, Mormon leaders announced they would publish essays on some of the historical issues. Where are these essays? Not one has been released at this point.

 

[Porknpie]

I can’t look into this elderly man’s heart and soul.

Agreed, but we can discern and judge his words against history and judge whether his words ring true. They do not. He presents a false portrayal of polygamy against the historical record, not just once but multiple times. A pattern exists here … we can judge that he is misrepresenting what is true.

Watching it, he does seem a little confused at times that can be because of age.

You are inserting your own opinion here. You believe him to be confused? And, because of his age? He might find that insulting. Another person would say that he is trying to be very careful with words and not being honest. He’d probably find that insulting too.

How old was he at the time of this interview?

Don’t know but it really doesn’t matter…he’s the head of the Mormon Church and not accurately presenting the history of Polygamy in the Church.

Should we believe him when he says that God spoke to the Mormon prophet in the late 1800’s … and God told the LDS Church to change their doctrine of polygamy? Funny how God changes his mind when the LDS church is pressured by the US government to obey the laws of the land and how the LDS Church should now obey the laws of the land. Joseph Smith and Brigham Young sure didn’t. It’s great that Mormon’s can use the internet to find out the history of their church.

 

[RebeccaJ]

This may happen. But I also know that many mormon families have members that are no longer members or do not attend church and these familes still have a relationship with that child or relative. It is not an open and shut case. It does depend on the family. We also need to remember that we are not just dealing with the parents but also with brothers and sisters and most likely these siblings would keep up a relationship.

Mormons who do break off relations with their exmember child or relative are not following the teachings of the LDS church. I have never heard any leader of the LDS church say that family members should be shunned if they leave the faith.

For myself, I see it as based on fear. Fear our non belief is going to rub off on believing Mormons. Particularly young Mormons.Shunning can be very subtle, passive aggressive, and believing Mormons know how to maintain a “I’m not that way” facade.

 

[invisible_man]

Do you think that publishing the Joseph Smith Papers (and I have to confess that I have no idea what they are) will be enough? Have you read the Joseph Smith Papers? Have they been kept secret all this time?

I think that the LDS now know the value of the internet. The Joseph Smith Papers are a major work by LDS historians and they are also published in book form. I believe that this will be the first attempt that the Mormon Church is making in putting his work together. It will be a wonderful asset to historians in general and to the general public. They were not exactly kept secret since historians could view much of the work in the past. But now they will be open to the general public in a very organized way.

For example, Mormons can now read all the accounts of the first vision not just from Joseph Smith but from those who also heard about it. It can not be claimed the the LDS church is hiding such information.

josephsmithpapers.org/

From the website about the first vision:

josephsmithpapers.org/site/accounts-of-the-first-vision

 

[invisible_man]

For myself, I see it as based on fear. Fear our non belief is going to rub off on believing Mormons.

Maybe fear. I think that it is only human nature. If a family believes in a certain faith, it is never very easy to accept someone’s non-belief. We see this also in other faiths outside of Mormonism. Islam and the Jewish faith as an example. I haven’t met many Jewish people or Muslims who would warmly welcome their siblings leaving their faith for Christianity.

Mormons should not be singled out.

 

[twopekinguys]

Maybe fear. I think that it is only human nature. If a family believes in a certain faith, it is never very easy to accept someone’s non-belief. We see this also in other faiths outside of Mormonism. Islam and the Jewish faith as an example. I haven’t met many Jewish people or Muslims who would warmly welcome their siblings leaving their faith for Christianity.

Mormons should not be singled out.

This is the 3rd time I am asking you this question.

How long have you been mormon?

Why the dodge?

 

[TexanKnight]

I don’t know if this is true. I would hope not. Most of these apostles have many children and many more grandchildren. If your statement were true, they would also be hiding it from their families and extended families. I tend to doubt that they are hiding it. Most likely, it is an open question just were the hill is located. I do know that there has always been a debate about where the hill is located. Some have said New York and others have said that it is somewhere else.

I think that mormons do not know where the actual hill is regardless of the statements that have been given by LDS leaders.

Oh…good. So you also agree that the LDS “Prophets” who claimed they knew where the hill was are not really prophets? That makes me feel better. We all know true prophets would not mislead their people like that

 

[Marie5890]

The LDS church will not be blocking any sites that are critical of the LDS faith to my knowledge.

Well THAT IS new to me. BYU certainly was well known to censor and block ANY site they deemed “anti-Mormon”…

Has that changed? Maybe…

But it was well known that they did back in the 90s…

Maybe LDS membership has gotten something of a backbone with facing it’s critics?..Mmmmm…Of course if the critics are from within, they are excommunicated/disfellowshipped… …

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_Six

LDS leadership can be soooo whimpy when it comes to it’s critics.

 

[invisible_man]

This is the 3rd time I am asking you this question.

How long have you been mormon?

Why the dodge?

No dodge. I don’t want to get personal on this forum. I would prefer to remain invisible on certain things. I am just a person who has opinions and ideas and tries to back them up, if I can.

 

[invisible_man]

Well THAT IS new to me. BYU certainly was well known to censor and block ANY site they deemed “anti-Mormon”…

Has that changed? Maybe…

But it was well known that they did back in the 90s…

LDS leadership can be soooo whimpy when it comes to it’s critics.

I don’t know about the 90’s. The internet was quite new back then. I remember my email system was just basic stuff. I think that the LDS church now realizes the importance of their own apologetics. Also, BYU has their own site where Mormons can go to find out inormation about their church’s history. Maybe the Mormons are now responding to the critcs in better ways.