Mormons search the web and find doubt

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Interestingly, three prominent Mormon vritics have come back to their church. Don Bradley, Maxine Hanks and John Dehlin. These three people used to be outspoken critics of the LDS church. If I were to listen to them when they were critics, which can be done because of the internet, and what they are now saying, it would be like night and day.

Also, I don’t think that their critic friends are very friendly with them. I suppose that people can find doubt and find faith again even within Mormonism.
 
invisible_man said:
No dodge. I don’t want to get personal on this forum. I would prefer to remain invisible on certain things. 🙂 I am just a person who has opinions and ideas and tries to back them up, if I can.
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hard to back up opinions when you are too afraid to answer questions…
 
invisible_man said:
I don’t know about the 90’s. The internet was quite new back then. I remember my email system was just basic stuff. I think that the LDS church now realizes the importance of their own apologetics. Also, BYU has their own site where Mormons can go to find out inormation about their church’s history. Maybe the Mormons are now responding to the critcs in better ways.
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if you had read their apologetics, you would see how weak they are. Not their fault…hard to defend stuff like this
 
invisible_man said:
No dodge. I don’t want to get personal on this forum. I would prefer to remain invisible on certain things. 🙂 I am just a person who has opinions and ideas and tries to back them up, if I can.
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How can you not get “personal” on a forum talking about faith issues? I don’t think there is anything in the world that is more "personal.

Mormonism is firmly planted in all things “personal”. Or, haven’t you heard of the burning in the bosom?

Just sayin…
 
invisible_man said:
Interestingly, three prominent Mormon vritics have come back to their church. Don Bradley, Maxine Hanks and John Dehlin. These three people used to be outspoken critics of the LDS church. If I were to listen to them when they were critics, which can be done because of the internet, and what they are now saying, it would be like night and day.

Also, I don’t think that their critic friends are very friendly with them. I suppose that people can find doubt and find faith again even within Mormonism.
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And how many prominent critics are still ex Mormon? How many new critics and apostates are coming out? I cannot even try to guess why these people have returned to the Mormon church or even how much they even believe now. Perhaps they see the Mormon church being a net good for the world and return for family/cultural reasons, even though they don’t actually believe the doctrines. I could never live that way or teach my children what I know to be a lie.
 
I lived in Ogden Utah for 2 years and felt just immersed in Mormon culture. One of the women who worked with my husband was Catholic and she said she felt like she was discriminated against. I never really felt that, but I didn’t even attend a Protestant church at the time. There was a couple women who did approach me and did some proselytizing. They were very friendly at first, but once they realized how skeptical I was they kind of gave up and moved on; taking their conditional offer of friendship with them. I didn’t consider myself skeptical, I just asked a lot of questions and wasn’t satisfied with vague answers. I’ve been that way with Protestantism as well and it’s probably why I haven’t affiliated myself strongly with a church in adulthood. Anyway, I admired the way Mormons were family and community oriented. You could see the fruits of their faith by how they lived and they had discipline which was better than most of the Protestants and Catholics I knew at the time. BUT, the secretiveness and evasiveness really was a deal breaker for me. The Protestant churches always confused me by all their different interpretations of scripture and the non-denominational by their disregard of tradition but it wasn’t secretive. One of the reasons I’m coverting to Catholicism is because there doesn’t seem to be any secrets; even the scandals are pretty much out there now due to the media. The more I study the history, doctrine, and theology, the more enlightened I feel-there really is no confusion. I find it intellectually satisfying and no other religion or philosophy has done that for me. It’s funny, my husband who is a cradle catholic doesn’t really seem to understand my amazement. He said sometimes it feels like he’s looking at his religion with new eyes.
 
invisible_man said:
I don’t know if this is true. I would hope not. Most of these apostles have many children and many more grandchildren. If your statement were true, they would also be hiding it from their families and extended families. I tend to doubt that they are hiding it. Most likely, it is an open question just were the hill is located. I do know that there has always been a debate about where the hill is located. Some have said New York and others have said that it is somewhere else.

I think that mormons do not know where the actual hill is regardless of the statements that have been given by LDS leaders.
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Perhaps you are not familiar with Steve Benson. Grandson of Ezra Taft Benson.

This wiki article should help you get started. Read it here.
 
TexanKnight said:
Oh…good. So you also agree that the LDS “Prophets” who claimed they knew where the hill was are not really prophets? That makes me feel better. We all know true prophets would not mislead their people like that
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But let’s not forget the letter from the “first presidency” stating that the hill is in New York.

So were they wrong then? Or now?
 
twopekinguys said:
Perhaps you are not familiar with Steve Benson. Grandson of Ezra Taft Benson.

This wiki article should help you get started. Read it here.
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The problem with Invisible’s logic said immediately below
Most likely, it is an open question just were the hill is located
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Is that Joseph Smith himself ( and of course LDS leaders subsequently through time) said it was Hill Cumorah in New York, cite of the famous battle that killed a million or so…

So which is the correct answer?

A) I can trust what Josph Smith said to be true
B) I can not trust what Joseph Smith said to be true

Invisible is answering b) above

This leads to the next question…

“Was there a great apostasy in the early Church?”

A) Joseph Smith said yes…and I can trust him
B) Joseph Smith said yes…and I can not trust him

We’ve already established that Joseph Smith can not be trusted so the answer is b). I’d also add that over ten married men could not trust him when he married their wives into polygamy, which was against the law. He also got in trouble with the law for selling snake oil. There is a pattern of mistrust here…

Jesus said he would lead his Church to all Truth…he’s done so, uninterrupted for 2,000 years.
 
Porknpie said:
Is that Joseph Smith himself ( and of course LDS leaders subsequently through time) said it was Hill Cumorah in New York, cite of the famous battle that killed a million or so…

So which is the correct answer?

A) I can trust what Josph Smith said to be true
B) I can not trust what Joseph Smith said to be true

Invisible is answering b) above

This leads to the next question…

“Was there a great apostasy in the early Church?”

A) Joseph Smith said yes…and I can trust him
B) Joseph Smith said yes…and I can not trust him

We’ve already established that Joseph Smith can not be trusted so the answer is b). I’d also add that over ten married men could not trust him when he married their wives into polygamy, which was against the law. He also got in trouble with the law for selling snake oil. There is a pattern of mistrust here…

Jesus said he would lead his Church to all Truth…he’s done so, uninterrupted for 2,000 years.
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And as recent as 1990, the General Authorities of the LDS Church STILL STOOD behind the contention that the Hill Cumorah was THE place

utlm.org/images/cumorahletter.gif

“Nailing Jello to the wall” syndrome shows it head…again…
 
Porknpie said:
The problem with Invisible’s logic said immediately below

Is that Joseph Smith himself ( and of course LDS leaders subsequently through time) said it was Hill Cumorah in New York, cite of the famous battle that killed a million or so…

So which is the correct answer?

A) I can trust what Josph Smith said to be true
B) I can not trust what Joseph Smith said to be true

Invisible is answering b) above

This leads to the next question…

“Was there a great apostasy in the early Church?”

A) Joseph Smith said yes…and I can trust him
B) Joseph Smith said yes…and I can not trust him

We’ve already established that Joseph Smith can not be trusted so the answer is b). I’d also add that over ten married men could not trust him when he married their wives into polygamy, which was against the law. He also got in trouble with the law for selling snake oil. There is a pattern of mistrust here…

Jesus said he would lead his Church to all Truth…he’s done so, uninterrupted for 2,000 years.
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But, I have a “burning in the bosom.” 😛
 
Porknpie said:
Of course you know that I meant answer c) no and I can not trust Joseph Smith.

😊
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But, are you speaking only as a man, or a “prophet”?

Should I believe that your responses have been translated correctly?

😃
 
iepuras said:
And how many prominent critics are still ex Mormon? How many new critics and apostates are coming out? I cannot even try to guess why these people have returned to the Mormon church or even how much they even believe now. Perhaps they see the Mormon church being a net good for the world and return for family/cultural reasons, even though they don’t actually believe the doctrines. I could never live that way or teach my children what I know to be a lie.
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I think that Don Braddley is now working on the Joseph Smith Papers. He researched historical issues and found that he was mistaken in what he believed when he left the LDS church. I think that the same can be said for Maxine and John. I think that there are people who leave the LDS faith and then find themselves returning. I suppose that this is no different for many faiths.
 
invisible_man said:
I think that Don Braddley is now working on the Joseph Smith Papers. He researched historical issues and found that he was mistaken in what he believed when he left the LDS church. I think that the same can be said for Maxine and John. I think that there are people who leave the LDS faith and then find themselves returning. I suppose that this is no different for many faiths.
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My point is that there are many more critics who have remained critics than have returned with their tails between their legs. William Law, Steve Benson, Tom Phillips, Grant Palmer, Kay Burningham, Jerald and Sandra Tanner, Dianne Ormond, Steve Bloor, Richard Packham, etc.
 
iepuras said:
My point is that there are many more critics who have remained critics than have returned with their tails between their legs. William Law, Steve Benson, Tom Phillips, Grant Palmer, Kay Burningham, Jerald and Sandra Tanner, Dianne Ormond, Steve Bloor, Richard Packham, etc.
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I understand. People leave their perspective religious faiths all the time. It is perhaps human nature to be disgruntled. Such departures have always been a part of LDS history from the very beginning of its foundation. I see no reason that it would be different now.
 
invisible_man said:
It is perhaps human nature to be disgruntled.
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You are falling hook, line and sinker if you fall for the myth that most of those who leave the LDS faith are disgruntled. It’s a stereotype that is encouraged by those who dont even realise it is a stereotype…

Highly unfortunate and disappointing…
 
Marie5890 said:
You are falling hook, line and sinker if you fall for the myth that most of those who leave the LDS faith are disgruntled. It’s a stereotype that is encouraged by those who dont even realise it is a stereotype…

Highly unfortunate and disappointing…
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Yes, these people and many on CAF have come to the understanding that there never was an apostasy in the Catholic Church, that the Holy Spirit has guided the church to all truth, without a lapse of 1800 years, just like the bible says…many because of the Internet.
 
invisible_man said:
I understand. People leave their perspective religious faiths all the time. It is perhaps human nature to be disgruntled. Such departures have always been a part of LDS history from the very beginning of its foundation. I see no reason that it would be different now.
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disgruntled indicates a problem with the person. This is not the case. The case here is finding out you have been lied to and deceived.
 
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