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TexanKnight
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it may not be hidden today…but it used to be. Part of the LDS Church web of lies
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twopekinguys
Guest
How many times do you go looking for something strange?
Why isn’t it taught in the Gospel principles manual? Relief Society? Elder’s Quorum?
Are the people teaching in these situations that inept? Is it because the information isn’t there in their teaching materials?
How many times have we heard people say their Bishop told them not to worry about it because it wasn’t faith promoting?
But, the head in the hat method was what was paraded around until the mormons wanted to be considered mainstream… Coincidence?
Just like the lift of the ban on blacks and the priesthood. Funny how it coincided with Top Tier schools refusing to play BYU because it was racist.
An awful lot of coincidences don’t you think?
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onenow1
Guest
“it is better to be “annoying” and “a nuisance” than lukewarm in proclaiming Jesus Christ.
If we annoy people, blessed be the Lord!”
Pope Francis
“He that sees another in error and endeavors not to correct it, testifies himself to be in error.”
Pope Leo I
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invisible_man
Guest
I still don’t quite get it. Who is taught history these days? I typed in polygamy in the LDS website and got this:
After God revealed the doctrine of plural marriage to Joseph Smith in 1831 and commanded him to live it, the Prophet, over a period of years, cautiously taught the doctrine to some close associates. Eventually, he and a small number of Church leaders entered into plural marriages in the early years of the Church. Those who practiced plural marriage at that time, both male and female, experienced a significant trial of their faith. The practice was so foreign to them that they needed and received personal inspiration from God to help them obey the commandment.
lds.org/topics/polygamy-plural-marriage?lang=eng
So, I know that Joseph Smith practiced polygamy in 1831. What is hidden?
And here are some more information from the LDS church’s website:
mormon.org/faq/plural-marriage
And then I found this from their website:**
****Polygamy — or more correctly polygyny, the marriage of more than one woman to the same man — was an important part of the teachings of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints for a half-century. The practice began during the lifetime of Joseph Smith but became publicly and widely known during the time of Brigham Young. Today, the practice of polygamy is strictly prohibited in the Church, as it has been for over 120 years.
In 1831, Church founder Joseph Smith made a prayerful inquiry about the ancient Old Testament practice of plural marriage. This resulted in the divine instruction to reinstitute the practice as a religious principle.
Latter-day Saint converts in the 19th century had been raised in traditional, monogamous homes and struggled with the idea of a man having more than one wife. It was as foreign to them as it would be to most families today in the western world. Even Brigham Young, who was later to have many wives and children, confessed to his initial dread of the principle of plural marriage.
Subsequently, in 1890, President Wilford Woodruff, fourth president of the Church, received what Latter-day Saints believe to be a revelation in which God withdrew the command to practice plural marriage. He issued what has come to be known as the “Manifesto,” a written declaration to Church members and the public at large that stopped the practice of plural marriage.
Later, describing the reasons for the Manifesto, President Woodruff told Church members, “The Lord showed me by vision and revelation exactly what would take place if we did not stop this practice. If we had not stopped it, you would have had no use for … any of the men in this temple … for all (temple sacraments) would be stopped throughout the land. … Confusion would reign … and many men would be made prisoners. This trouble would have come upon the whole Church, and we should have been compelled to stop the practice.”
Today Church members honor and respect the sacrifices made by those who practiced polygamy in the early days of the Church. However, the practice is outlawed in the Church, and no person can practice plural marriage and remain a member.**
mormonnewsroom.org/article/polygamy-latter-day-saints-and-the-practice-of-plural-marriage
Why can’t Mormons find this information on their own website?
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invisible_man
Guest
Should Mormons spend their Sundays studying history? It is on their church’s website. What is hidden? I just linked a lot of information about polygamy from the LDS website. It states that Joseph Smith practiced polygamy in 1831. Any Mormon can find this out.
I really don’t care one way or another. But I don’t see it hidden nor do I see a deception.
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TexanKnight
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LivingWaters7
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You seem not to be familiar with how the LDS Church actual functions at the local level. On Sundays, about 2 hours are devoted to instruction. The issue of the translation of the Book of Mormon, including the head in the hat method, could be easily taught during Elders Quorum or Relief Society, perhaps in the Presidency message on the 1st Sunday of the month. Further, this year, Latter-day Saints are studying the “Doctrine and Covenants and Church History” during the Sunday School hour in Gospel Doctrine.
lds.org/manual/doctrine-and-covenants-and-church-history-gospel-doctrine-teachers-manual?lang=eng
It could easily be discussed as part of Lesson 4-“Remember the New Covenant, Even the Book of Mormon”.
Have you never attended LDS meetings before? Matters of church history are discussed all the time in various contexts, so the reason why you question whether Mormons should spend their Sundays studying history (especially when this whole year is devoted to a wide range of historical matters as it relates to latter day revelation, including the translation of the Book of Mormon) is maybe due to you never having actually been a Latter-day Saint (or maybe you have/are?).
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iepuras
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LW7 is correct. Mormons do spend every four years studying church history and the Doctrine and Covenants in Sunday School. They have not changed their lesson manuals in a while. They do not teach the head in the hat translation method. There is one entire lesson devoted to the translation of the BOM and they simply do not teach the actual translation method JS used.
I also attended BYU and took numerous religion classes. No mention of head in the hat during any of them.
How would anyone know to search head in the hat on lds.org unless they already know about it?
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twopekinguys
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Exactly
I am wondering why invisible doesn’t just admit to being mormon. More deception by omission? Lying for the Lord?
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Porknpie
Guest
Invisible,
Do you believe that one should honor and respect those who break the law?
Do you believe that one should honor and respect those that break the 10 Commandments, in this case adultery?
Joseph Smith and Brigham Young had over 80 wives between them. Is this what Prophet Hinckley means by polygamy being carefully controlled and safeguarded? Are they due honor and respect for breaking the law and the Ten Commandments?
Do you agree with your church on this?
60 Minutes interview.
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zaffiroborant
Guest
No you can pretend that no one leave the LDS church because of doctrine but they do. But they mostly leave because when they look into the beginnings of the church they don’t like what they see. The “Saints” in Sweden are a good example of why people leave as pointed out in the OP.
Rmcmullan wants to poison the well when it comes to those who leave the LDS church, you can see it by the way he pops into these threads and makes his implications. But the NY Times article linked in the OP (found HERE) shows that people leave the LDS church over very serious issues, issues they find very disturbing. You can read transcripts and listen to youtube video of the Swedish members and the problems they have with the LDS church.
I am not sure just why Rmcmullan thinks that poisoning the well is a “meme” that is going to work with anyone other than faithful LDS members. Maybe in an LDS setting painting ex members in this ugly fashion makes everyone feel good and this is what he expects here.
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lynnettejane
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OK when I joined the LDS church many moons ago, it was the 6 lesson method I believe, with flannel boards etc, yes that long ago. The whole method of conversion was first, establish the need for a prophet (not a Savior), and that was established by leading investigators based on certain claims (apostasy) and the restoration history. I say history because it is precisely this history that was so important to converting investigators. We were led to certain conclusions, it was all very slick. After baptism we engaged in the gentle, leading us to accept milk before meat. There was absolutely no mention of hats or stones, or JS history as a money digger, and how well known his family were known for this locally. No disitinctly mormon beliefs were made known to us, at this fledgling stage, we were completely ignorant of eg, the many first vision stories, the plurality of gods, the truth about polygamy, that was only brought up if it was mentioned, the influence of free masonry, blood atonement, Adam god, in fact the latter 2 were never discussed. We were fed the sanitised mormon history, nothing about the fact that people were commanded to give up their property, that the mormon people were in terrible want whilst building their prophet’s mansion house, the Danites, the council of fifty, the crowning of JS as king, mountain meadows and other murders.
So for those of us who went through this initiation process have been truly shattered by finding out the truth and the extent of the deception , and it is because of the deception that many are leaving the LDS church, so history really does matter, true history that is. The LDS church may be trying to limit the damage, but for many of the faithful born in the covenant, now finding out the true history is proving equally devastating as for converts. And there are millions of cradle mormons yet to find out, hence FAIR and FARMS, but people are not easily fooled by their apologetics and the stream of leavers will continue. The sad thing is many lose all faith, such is the extent of the damage that can be done.
So for those of us who went through this initiation process have been truly shattered by finding out the truth and the extent of the deception , and it is because of the deception that many are leaving the LDS church, so history really does matter, true history that is. The LDS church may be trying to limit the damage, but for many of the faithful born in the covenant, now finding out the true history is proving equally devastating as for converts. And there are millions of cradle mormons yet to find out, hence FAIR and FARMS, but people are not easily fooled by their apologetics and the stream of leavers will continue. The sad thing is many lose all faith, such is the extent of the damage that can be done.
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RebeccaJ
Guest
What is doctrine, what is fine about it, what is different?
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invisible_man
Guest
It seems that the translation was told in many ways. I gave two. The head in the hat and the other one with Oliver Cowdery sitting next to Joseph Smith, no mention of a hat. On the other hand, Mormons are told that their church hides its history. It would make sense to me that if I discovered the head in the hat I would search lds.org and see what I got. It seems that I would have gotten two articles in their church magazine about it. Nothing hidden. The same with polygamy. So, what the people who claim that much is hidden would be wrong.
I also noticed that when I hooked into the Joseph Smith Papers I received on the home page the numerous first vision accounts which people claim that the LDS church hides. Mormons can search and seek. The Mormons who discover information and our told that it is all hidden and then they doubt must be lazy or they wish to doubt.
But maybe I am being too harsh. I certainly found out much from Mormon websites.
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invisible_man
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I just think that they can go to their church’s website and search for their answers. That is what I would do and Í did it. Besides I don’t see what is the big deal. I have no idea what Mormons should know…or what Baptists should know…or what Catholics should know. I think that churches should lead their flock to a close relationship with God. And I am sure that the faiths that I have just mentioned do that. And others faiths too.How many times do you go looking for something strange?
Why isn’t it taught in the Gospel principles manual? Relief Society? Elder’s Quorum?
Are the people teaching in these situations that inept? Is it because the information isn’t there in their teaching materials?
How many times have we heard people say their Bishop told them not to worry about it because it wasn’t faith promoting?
But, the head in the hat method was what was paraded around until the mormons wanted to be considered mainstream… Coincidence?
Just like the lift of the ban on blacks and the priesthood. Funny how it coincided with Top Tier schools refusing to play BYU because it was racist.
An awful lot of coincidences don’t you think?
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twopekinguys
Guest
Isn’t knowing their history (which would include teaching it) help them understand that relationship, and how their church progressed from inception to current day?
What you are advocating here is blind faith in a religion. Faith is not believing without reason. Reason is a key component of faith.
Not being upfront about their history is lying by omission. As LW7 stated, which you seem to have ignored or overlooked is:
“On Sundays, about 2 hours are devoted to instruction. The issue of the translation of the Book of Mormon, including the head in the hat method, could be easily taught during Elders Quorum or Relief Society, perhaps in the Presidency message on the 1st Sunday of the month. Further, this year, Latter-day Saints are studying the “Doctrine and Covenants and Church History” during the Sunday School hour in Gospel Doctrine.”
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Marie5890
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LDS.org certainly did not exists when I was LDS.
So the history was hidden, at at least whitewashed.
The factual history was never discussed in SS, RS, or Sacrament meeting, never mind GC or Stake Conference…Or any of the BYU firesides (held monthly, by a GA) or the twice monthly Tues AM religious meetings (also mostly GA’s) held in the Marriot Center during the year…
Perhaps the LDS Church has decided to take it’s history out of the darkness of the hidden history that it was shrouded in?
If they are bring the real history out into the open, out into the light of facts, than that has happened in the past 15 years?..Its a very recent development.
So the history was hidden, at at least whitewashed.
The factual history was never discussed in SS, RS, or Sacrament meeting, never mind GC or Stake Conference…Or any of the BYU firesides (held monthly, by a GA) or the twice monthly Tues AM religious meetings (also mostly GA’s) held in the Marriot Center during the year…
Perhaps the LDS Church has decided to take it’s history out of the darkness of the hidden history that it was shrouded in?
If they are bring the real history out into the open, out into the light of facts, than that has happened in the past 15 years?..Its a very recent development.
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Marie5890
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How long has the church’s website been around?
It didnt exist when I was LDS… I formally resigned in '98…
It didnt exist when I was LDS… I formally resigned in '98…
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Marie5890
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Anyone know if it’s true that in the 4 year cycle of Sunday School in the LDS Church that when they discuss Church History, that the manuals only mention ONE of BYoungs MANY MANY wives?
The other other wives are never brought up?
I havent seen an LDS sunday school manual in years…I used to be a SS teacher in my BYU ward back in the late 80’s/ early 90’s…very little was every discussed about polygamy…very very glossed over, though never directly dismissed or denied…
The other other wives are never brought up?
I havent seen an LDS sunday school manual in years…I used to be a SS teacher in my BYU ward back in the late 80’s/ early 90’s…very little was every discussed about polygamy…very very glossed over, though never directly dismissed or denied…
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Marie5890
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If you have never been LDS, no you wouldnt understand. How could you? It’s not part of your personal history or faith journey. How could you relate? In truth, you couldn’t.
If you have never spent hours on Sunday at the ward house in a 3 hour block of meetings, week after week, after month after month after year after year, how could you even begin to understand that what is found on LDS.org (a “new” source of info in terms of it’s 160+ years of teachings) is not what one is taught in those 3 hour blocks of times (and for those of us who attended BYU, and all the religion course required for graduation, never mind firesides and those Tues AM twice month meetings etc.,…There is no way for you to even begin to imagine how LDS.org (again NEW) doesnt reflect the every day in the trenches Mormon experience…
If you havent been there, I can understand why your posts dont reflect the reality of Mormon life…
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