Mormons search the web and find doubt

  • Thread starter Thread starter SAVINGRACE
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Janderich said:
They would find any reason to accuse him.
Click to expand...
Janderich,

Reasons were very specific and not “any” including:
  • committing adultery with over 10 married women. This would get the men a little mad no?
  • breaking the law by taking more than one wife…34 ? Polygamy was illegal. This is a good reason
  • selling miracle oil…again running into the law
  • saying that he could find buried treasure by looking into a hat using seer stone.
This certain does not describe a prophet from God…
 
Janderich said:
In the energy of his soul he said he could hold a church together better than Christ. And what of it. The church has held together and grown. While Christ’s original church has splintered into thousands of denominations. I doubt you can argue with that truth.
Click to expand...
Hi Janderich,

Actually, I don’t think that’s an accurate assessment. While one may claim that Christ’s original church has splintered (of course, this wouldn’t be something that Catholics would claim. Catholics believe that Christ’s original church has held together and grown for 2000 years, and is the Catholic Church. schismatic and heretical churches and communions are not part of it), one would also have to claim that the church restored/established by Joseph Smith has also splintered:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sects_in_the_Latter_Day_Saint_movement

We have, for example:

-The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
-The Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (now Community of Christ)
-Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
-Church of Christ (Temple Lot)
-Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (Strangite)
-The Church of Jesus Christ (Bickertonite)
-Apostolic United Brethren
-Restoration Branches
-The Church of Christ With the Elijah Message
-etc

all within a 183 year history.

So, in my assessment, if you’re going to say that Christ’s original church has splintered into thousands of denominations, you’d also have to address the splintering of the church established by Joseph Smith, and, by the same standard, neither person did a better job of holding their church together than the other (obviously as a Catholic, I believe that Christ’s original Church is still here and isn’t splintered. The various denominations in Christianity simply are not parts of the Catholic Church).
 
Janderich said:
Here are some other quotes from Joseph about Jesus:
Click to expand...
here are some more js quotes:

". . .I prophesy in the name of the Lord God of Israel, unless the United States redress the wrongs committed upon the Saints in the state of Missouri and punish the crimes committed by her officers that in a few years the government will be utterly overthrown and wasted, and there will not be so much as a potsherd left . . . " (History of the Church, vol. 5, p. 394).

“In the beginning, the head of the Gods called a council of the Gods; and they came together and concocted a plan to create the world and people it,” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p. 5).

“The greatest responsibility in this world that God has laid upon us is to seek after our dead,” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p. 7).

Joseph Smith said that there are men living on the moon who dress like Quakers and live to be nearly 1000 years old. Since he was wrong about the moon, is it safe to trust him regarding the way to Heaven? (The Young Woman’s Journal, vol. 3, p. 263-264.

Verily, I say unto you, that the wisdom of man, in his fallen state, knoweth not the purposes and the privileges of my [holy] priesthood, but ye shall know when ye receive a fullness by reason of the anointing: For it is my will, that in time, ye should take unto you wives of the Lamanites and Nephites, that their posterity may become white, delightsome and just, for even now their females are more virtuous then the gentiles.

Joseph Smith, 1831 revelation, recorded in a letter from W.W. Phelps to Brigham Young, dated August 12, 1861

While discussing the petition to Congress, I prophesied, by virtue of the holy Priesthood vested in me, and in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, that, if Congress will not hear our petition and grant us protection, they shall be broken up as a government, and god shall damn them. And there shall nothing be left of them ‑ not even a grease spot.

Joseph Smith, History of the Church, v.6 p. 116

The coming of the Lord, which is nigh ‑‑ even fifty‑six years should wind up the scene.

Joseph Smith, History of the Church, v2, p 182

What a strange people these Mormons are. They are like a flock of sheep; if I should jump into hell, I believe they would follow me!

Joseph Smith, (on the block‑voting of Mormons) Macomb Journal, January 25, 1877, p. 2, Politics and Mormons (This is the ONE THING he was right about)
 
LivingWaters7 said:
Hi Janderich,

Actually, I don’t think that’s an accurate assessment. While one may claim that Christ’s original church has splintered (of course, this wouldn’t be something that Catholics would claim. Catholics believe that Christ’s original church has held together and grown for 2000 years, and is the Catholic Church. schismatic and heretical churches and communions are not part of it), one would also have to claim that the church restored/established by Joseph Smith has also splintered:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sects_in_the_Latter_Day_Saint_movement

We have, for example:

-The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
-The Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (now Community of Christ)
-Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
-Church of Christ (Temple Lot)
-Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (Strangite)
-The Church of Jesus Christ (Bickertonite)
-Apostolic United Brethren
-Restoration Branches
-The Church of Christ With the Elijah Message
-etc

all within a 183 year history.

So, in my assessment, if you’re going to say that Christ’s original church has splintered into thousands of denominations, you’d also have to address the splintering of the church established by Joseph Smith, and, by the same standard, neither person did a better job of holding their church together than the other (obviously as a Catholic, I believe that Christ’s original Church is still here and isn’t splintered. The various denominations in Christianity simply are not parts of the Catholic Church).
Click to expand...
I understand your point. My disagreement is with TexanKnight regularly stating that Joseph said he was better than Christ. When the actual quote and motivation for it, are examined, it is more narrow in scope and understandable. Out of context statements and quotes are often meant to provide shock value and sensationalism.
 
Janderich said:
I understand your point. My disagreement is with TexanKnight regularly stating that Joseph said he was better than Christ. When the actual quote and motivation for it, are examined, it is more narrow in scope and understandable. Out of context statements and quotes are often meant to provide shock value and sensationalism.
Click to expand...
I put it in context. Js said he had done something not even Christ could do. That is pathetic, but not surprising from a convicted con man
 
TexanKnight, Let me give you one more example. You provided quotes attributed to Joseph in order to place him in a bad light. Here is one:
The coming of the Lord, which is nigh ‑‑ even fifty‑six years should wind up the scene. (Joseph Smith, History of the Church, v2, p 182)
Click to expand...
On reviewing the details it can be seen what Joseph was almost surely referring to. First, it was February of 1835 when Joseph made the statement, so he was 29 years old. He says 56 years should wind of the scene. Why so specific? Well Joseph provided the details of the revelation he received in D&C 130:14-16 which says,
I was once praying very earnestly to know the time of the coming of the Son of Man, when I heard a voice repeat the following: Joseph my son, if thou livest until thou art eighty-five years old, thou shalt see the face of the Son of Man; therefore let this suffice, and trouble me no more on this matter. I was left thus, without being able to decide whether this coming referred to the beginning of the millennium or to some previous appearing, of whether I should die and thus see his face. I believe the coming of the Son of Man will not be any sooner than that time.
Click to expand...
As is readily apparent 29+56 puts Joseph at 85 years old. However, the revelation did not state that Christ would come in 56 years. It said Joseph would see the face of the Son of Man if he lived to be 85, which he did not. So, either the person who translated the statement of Joseph was not precise in writing down every word (a common occurrence), or Joseph received a true revelation but did not give it to the people completely at that time.

Again, you throw statements out for shock value but provide no context. I guess there are some people foolish enough to accept them without considering the source. It would take too long to review all of them. I guess people will believe as they will, I have not the time to analize each one.
 
Janderich said:
. In the energy of his soul he said he could hold a church together better than Christ. And what of it. The church has held together and grown. While Christ’s original church has splintered into thousands of denominations. I doubt you can argue with that truth.:
Click to expand...
Wow…:eek::dts:
 
Janderich said:
I understand your point. My disagreement is with TexanKnight regularly stating that Joseph said he was better than Christ. When the actual quote and motivation for it, are examined, it is more narrow in scope and understandable. Out of context statements and quotes are often meant to provide shock value and sensationalism.
Click to expand...
Ok no problem.

However, from the reasoning I mentioned, I don’t see Joseph Smith as actually holding his church together moreso than Christ did anciently. The church he established has splintered just like the ancient one has, if we go by that reasoning. 🤷
 
Janderich said:
TexanKnight, Let me give you one more example. You provided quotes attributed to Joseph in order to place him in a bad light. Here is one: On reviewing the details it can be seen what Joseph was almost surely referring to. First, it was February of 1835 when Joseph made the statement, so he was 29 years old. He says 56 years should wind of the scene. Why so specific? Well Joseph provided the details of the revelation he received in D&C 130:14-16 which says, As is readily apparent 29+56 puts Joseph at 85 years old. However, the revelation did not state that Christ would come in 56 years. It said Joseph would see the face of the Son of Man if he lived to be 85, which he did not. So, either the person who translated the statement of Joseph was not precise in writing down every word (a common occurrence), or Joseph received a true revelation but did not give it to the people completely at that time.

Again, you throw statements out for shock value but provide no context. I guess there are some people foolish enough to accept them without considering the source. It would take too long to review all of them. I guess people will believe as they will, I have not the time to analize each one.
Click to expand...
lol…all the twisting, spin and apologetics in the world do not change the fact he made yet another prophesy that failed. Just like when the was promising he could find buried treasure with the same rocks he “translated” the b of m with
 
Let’s have some more js:

“If any man preach any other Gospel than that which I have preached, he shall be cursed.”
Joseph Smith, History of the Church, volume 6, page 365; Joseph Smith, Jr, The Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, page 366

Having learned with extreme regret, that an article entitled, ‘Free People of Color,’ in the last number of the Star has been misunderstood, we feel in duty bound to state, in this Extra, that our intention was not only to stop free people of color from emigrating to this state, but to prevent them from being admitted as member of the Church.

Joseph Smith, History of the Church, 1:378‑379

Smith was to go to Salem, Massachusetts, where he would receive “its wealth pertaining to gold and silver”.

Joseph Smith, Doctrine and Covenants 111:4 (How did that work out for him?)

I now prophecy that before ten years shall roll around, the queens of the earth shall come and pay their respects to this [Relief] Society.

Joseph Smith, The Mormon Hierarchy: Origins of Power, D. Michael Quinn, p. 634
 
Any member of the LDS faith that attended church today knows that they don’t need to go on the internet to find doubt. Today’s lessons, focused on Joseph Smith and his martyrdom. We read from the manual and read D&C 135. Here is a link to read the section yourself (it is short). lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/135?lang=eng

verse 3 is most interesting to me and apparently to the rest of my ward because we spent most of the majority talking about why Joseph Smith did more to save us than Jesus. We also focused on the “innocence” of Joseph Smith and his apparent “savage” demise. We did not discuss Joseph Smith having a gun or them fighting back or anything like that. So when you read Section 135, you should feel 2 things. displeasure with the way the church portrays this and discomfort in knowing the church doesn’t tell the full truth.

Thats how i felt anyways.
 
TheIrishman said:
Any member of the LDS faith that attended church today knows that they don’t need to go on the internet to find doubt. Today’s lessons, focused on Joseph Smith and his martyrdom. We read from the manual and read D&C 135. Here is a link to read the section yourself (it is short). lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/135?lang=eng

verse 3 is most interesting to me and apparently to the rest of my ward because we spent most of the majority talking about why Joseph Smith did more to save us than Jesus. We also focused on the “innocence” of Joseph Smith and his apparent “savage” demise. We did not discuss Joseph Smith having a gun or them fighting back or anything like that. So when you read Section 135, you should feel 2 things. displeasure with the way the church portrays this and discomfort in knowing the church doesn’t tell the full truth.

Thats how i felt anyways.
Click to expand...
👍

Most lambs being led to the slaughter (as smith claimed), don’t shoot back.
 
“In the beginning, the head of the Gods called a council of the Gods; and they came together and concocted a plan to create the world and people it,” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p. 5).

And this is why your church is not considered Christian. You leader is saying “Gods”, the same leader you follow to this day. What does the 10 Commandments say? The very 1st one says there is only 1 God. How can you follow a man and not Christ? If he were a real prophet death would not have come to him before his work was done. His prophesies would have come true (if they were really from the Lord) and these stones (plates?) would have remained on earth protected by the angels of heaven to show the world that the lds church was true. We have a church that Christ started that is still here, not takin from us.
 
TheIrishman said:
Any member of the LDS faith that attended church today knows that they don’t need to go on the internet to find doubt. Today’s lessons, focused on Joseph Smith and his martyrdom. We read from the manual and read D&C 135. Here is a link to read the section yourself (it is short). lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/135?lang=eng

verse 3 is most interesting to me and apparently to the rest of my ward because we spent most of the majority talking about why Joseph Smith did more to save us than Jesus. We also focused on the “innocence” of Joseph Smith and his apparent “savage” demise. We did not discuss Joseph Smith having a gun or them fighting back or anything like that. So when you read Section 135, you should feel 2 things. displeasure with the way the church portrays this and discomfort in knowing the church doesn’t tell the full truth.

Thats how i felt anyways.
Click to expand...
Most interesting to me is why would a group of 150-200 people be after Joseph Smith?
 
TheIrishman said:
Any member of the LDS faith that attended church today knows that they don’t need to go on the internet to find doubt. Today’s lessons, focused on Joseph Smith and his martyrdom. We read from the manual and read D&C 135. Here is a link to read the section yourself (it is short). lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/135?lang=eng

verse 3 is most interesting to me and apparently to the rest of my ward because we spent most of the majority talking about why Joseph Smith did more to save us than Jesus. We also focused on the “innocence” of Joseph Smith and his apparent “savage” demise. We did not discuss Joseph Smith having a gun or them fighting back or anything like that. So when you read Section 135, you should feel 2 things. displeasure with the way the church portrays this and discomfort in knowing the church doesn’t tell the full truth.

Thats how i felt anyways.
Click to expand...
he committed an illegal act, got arrested, had an illegal gun in jail, shot blindly down stairs (so much for being a lamb), then ran to save himself, leaving his friends behind. Not much to really be proud of
 
Porknpie said:
Most interesting to me is why would a group of 150-200 people be after Joseph Smith?
Click to expand...
There are so many reasons that it is amazing that there weren’t more. One previously neglected reason is land fraud. Joseph and friends did everything they could, legal and illegal, to get land for the Mormons, and make money in the process.

That, and
organized adultery
child sexual abuse
abortions
lies
blasphemy
counterfeiting
racism
religious fraud
murder
constantly changing and contradictory teachings
terrorism…

That does not justify what they did, but at least we can understand why they did it.
 
I believe their followers are in alot of bondage. I was starting to get afflicted trying to reason with the Mormon defenders, esp. the former non-Catholics, that I must really continue to pray for them and their liberation, and that the Lord lead them to truth.

The gist of being Catholic is communion, and to keep our eyes on the Lord and not so much at times on the people.

If we base our faith on humans, we will fail. So likewise I question what kind of faith is it that is sustained with having to focus on Joseph Smith so much as they do, and the benevolent paintings I see of him on children’s books in the LDS stores. Very disturbing.

Anyway, God bless the Mormon people and may He lead them to the Truth in Jesus Christ.
 
KathleenGee said:
Anyway, God bless the Mormon people and may He lead them to the Truth in Jesus Christ.
Click to expand...
What did Frank Sheed say? “The Truth is Food”. He is right. The Truth is Food… Jesus Christ is Food, both his Word and in the Eucharist. The Truth is found in Christ.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top