Mormons search the web and find doubt

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SteveVH said:
Pretty amazing. It’s hard to call it forgery, it is so obvious that one person’s hand penned the signatures it doesn’t look like they even tried to hide it. I don’t know what you would call it, but its obvious that the “witnesses” did not sign the BoM.
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Not only this, but the texts of the witnesses statements were written by someone else. According to Royal Skousen (a BYU professor) the “three witnesses statement” was written by Oliver Cowdrey and the “eight witnesses statement” was written by Joseph Smith.

You can read what his explanations at Times and Seasons in Who Authored the three-witness statement? and in Who authored the eight-witness statement

I give very little (if any) credence to these statements considering their provenance.
 
TheIrishman said:
Any member of the LDS faith that attended church today knows that they don’t need to go on the internet to find doubt. Today’s lessons, focused on Joseph Smith and his martyrdom. We read from the manual and read D&C 135. Here is a link to read the section yourself (it is short). lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/135?lang=eng

verse 3 is most interesting to me and apparently to the rest of my ward because we spent most of the majority talking about why Joseph Smith did more to save us than Jesus. We also focused on the “innocence” of Joseph Smith and his apparent “savage” demise. We did not discuss Joseph Smith having a gun or them fighting back or anything like that. So when you read Section 135, you should feel 2 things. displeasure with the way the church portrays this and discomfort in knowing the church doesn’t tell the full truth.

Thats how i felt anyways.
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To be fair, you are not reading the 3rd verse right.

“3 Joseph Smith, the aProphet and bSeer of the Lord, has done more, save Jesus only, for the salvation of men in this world, than any other man that ever lived in it.”

What this is saying is that, Smith has done more, with the exception of Christ Himself, for the salvation of the world.

“save” used in this context, means “except”
 
Marie5890 said:
To be fair, you are not reading the 3rd verse right.

“3 Joseph Smith, the aProphet and bSeer of the Lord, has done more, save Jesus only, for the salvation of men in this world, than any other man that ever lived in it.”

What this is saying is that, Smith has done more, with the exception of Christ Himself, for the salvation of the world.

“save” used in this context, means “except”
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Yes…it was Joseph himself who said he did more than Jesus
 
Marie5890 said:
To be fair, you are not reading the 3rd verse right.

“3 Joseph Smith, the aProphet and bSeer of the Lord, has done more, save Jesus only, for the salvation of men in this world, than any other man that ever lived in it.”

What this is saying is that, Smith has done more, with the exception of Christ Himself, for the salvation of the world.

“save” used in this context, means “except”
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Of course then we still have this to deal with:

"I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet . . . " (History of the Church, vol. 6, p. 408-409).
 
For fun, let’s look at this issue from another angle.

People usually take things at face value when it is coming from a spokesperson for their faith. i.e. priest, missionary, etc.

Do you think when people hear something, or are taught something that just doesn’t “fit”, do you think they do their “research” with their mind already made up?

Do you think that the harder the information is to find, the less likely it is to be helpful to that person?

Do you think most people are open minded in these cases, and could go either way?

ETA: At what point do you think people come to the conclusion they have been “lied to”?
 
SteveVH said:
Of course then we still have this to deal with:

"I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet . . . " (History of the Church, vol. 6, p. 408-409).
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That’s better.

The other example was misunderstood, however. “save” meant “except”
 
Marie5890 said:
To be fair, you are not reading the 3rd verse right.

“3 Joseph Smith, the aProphet and bSeer of the Lord, has done more, save Jesus only, for the salvation of men in this world, than any other man that ever lived in it.”

What this is saying is that, Smith has done more, with the exception of Christ Himself, for the salvation of the world.

“save” used in this context, means “except”
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Except its not discussed in that context while at church. You sit in on the discussion that we had at church and you would leave thinking mormons worship Joseph Smith and hold him on a higher pedestal than Jesus. Mormons lose that word “save” and dismiss it and praise Joseph Smith for all he’s done and in keeping together a church that Christ himself couldn’t hold together.

And to be fair, Joseph Smith is not above Jesus Christ even in the D&C. Thats why it was interesting to me because they were talking like Joseph Smith was above Him.
 
TheIrishman said:
Except its not discussed in that context while at church. You sit in on the discussion that we had at church and you would leave thinking mormons worship Joseph Smith and hold him on a higher pedestal than Jesus. Mormons lose that word “save” and dismiss it and praise Joseph Smith for all he’s done and in keeping together a church that Christ himself couldn’t hold together.

And to be fair, Joseph Smith is not above Jesus Christ even in the D&C. Thats why it was interesting to me because they were talking like Joseph Smith was above Him.
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Understood.
Yes, I remember that happening. Made me cringe. Too much focus on one particular person. I have on occasion seen that happen with some Catholics with their devotion to any particular saint. That makes me cringe, too.
 
TheIrishman said:
Except its not discussed in that context while at church. You sit in on the discussion that we had at church and you would leave thinking mormons worship Joseph Smith and hold him on a higher pedestal than Jesus. Mormons lose that word “save” and dismiss it and praise Joseph Smith for all he’s done and in keeping together a church that Christ himself couldn’t hold together.

And to be fair, Joseph Smith is not above Jesus Christ even in the D&C. Thats why it was interesting to me because they were talking like Joseph Smith was above Him.
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very true

I remember during Fast & Testimony Meetings, I rarely heard any closing “I have a testimony…” phrases that included Jesus or God. They were always, “I know The Book of Mormon is true, I know Joseph Smith was a prophet and I know we have a prophet that walks the earth today” or something similar…
 
TexanKnight said:
very true

I remember during Fast & Testimony Meetings, I rarely heard any closing “I have a testimony…” phrases that included Jesus or God. They were always, “I know The Book of Mormon is true, I know Joseph Smith was a prophet and I know we have a prophet that walks the earth today” or something similar…
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Frightening when you think about it.
 
Boulder257 said:
Frightening when you think about it.
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Yes, we were always expected to proclaim “I know that Joseph smith is the true prophet & that he restored the true church…”. Even the little kiddies repeat these lines from their parents up on the pulpit.
 
debbie_h said:
Yes, we were always expected to proclaim “I know that Joseph smith is the true prophet & that he restored the true church…”. Even the little kiddies repeat these lines from their parents up on the pulpit.
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I remember F&T meetings and how little LDS church meetings focus on Jesus. Hardly anyone bares testimony of Jesus Christ. It’s all about Joseph Smith, the Book of Mormon, the Church, or someone’s social life that was inspiring. My husband jokes about going back to visit F&T meeting just to laugh at the train wreck. No thank you!

In our former ward last Christmas, they did not talk about Jesus in Primary sharing time (children’s group meeting). They celebrated Joseph Smith’s birthday instead of celebrating Jesus. Even my true believing mother was bothered by that. I don’t remember ever bearing testimony of Joseph Smith. The rare times I did go up, I focused on Jesus.
 
I am a cradle Catholic.

I watched only 2 services on the Mormon tv station. And it gave me the impression that indeed that Joseph Smith is exalted above Christ. The effect of that is that it puts you in bondage with men and their opinion rather than the life and mind of Jesus Christ.

The temptation in the Church is to put too much weight on the personality of the cleric. We might greatly esteem a priest or pope but another Catholic will not.

We keep our eyes on Christ and the deposit of faith in Jesus Christ and try to follow His directives to pick up the cross and follow Him. We receive the fullness of Jesus Christ in the Word and Eucharist, irregardless of the sins and failing of the individual priest or pope for that matter.

This is because Jesus Christ is truly present in the sacraments, Jesus the High Priest.
 
debbie_h said:
Yes, we were always expected to proclaim “I know that Joseph smith is the true prophet & that he restored the true church…”. Even the little kiddies repeat these lines from their parents up on the pulpit.
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yep…listen to the testimony of the kids and it screams indoctrination. Looking back, I am surprised at how little focus was on Christ and how much focus was on js and the current prophet.

I am ashamed that I was so deceived.
 
TexanKnight said:
yep…listen to the testimony of the kids and it screams indoctrination. Looking back, I am surprised at how little focus was on Christ and how much focus was on js and the current prophet.

I am ashamed that I was so deceived.
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Don’t be ashamed. Maybe it was that experience that led you to such a strong conviction in Catholocism. Maybe it was because of this that you were so assured and confirmed in your current faith.

It was part of the journey brother and it brought you to where you are now.
 
My experience with testimonies is slightly different. Generally, yes, gratitude or “knowing” that the restoration is true would be said, Joseph Smith being a true prophet, the Book of Mormon is true scripture, the temple (though specific people usually brought up the temple, usually the temple workers) etc. Jesus Christ would be mentioned, usually “I know that Jesus is the Christ”, “I know that Jesus is at the head of the church”, or “I know that it’s only through Jesus’ atoning sacrifice that we can return to Heavenly Father with our families” or something like that. Sometimes there would be “I know that Heavenly Father exists, and I am a daughter of God”. And yes, there would always be stories from someone’s personal life about something they experienced that week or the last month, etc. But yes, most testimonies include “I know the church is true”, and “I know that Joseph Smith was a true prophet”/“I know that the church was restored through Joseph Smith”.

It’s always amusing when someone goes off the beaten path. I remember one time when someone said something like “well, I don’t really have a testimony of the church, I’m not sure about a few things. Some things just don’t make sense, but I do believe that Jesus is my savior, and that’s what I believe right now”. Everyone was looking around like “whaaa?..”

Also, last night, one of my friends messaged me and told me that he was no longer LDS. We had a long chat (we’ll meet up in person later), and for him, it seems as if it’s more over lifestyle issues that he’s always had difficulty with over the years. Trying to be objective, I asked if he no longer knew “the church is true”. He said he wasn’t sure. I told him that he really needs to figure out if he believes the church is true, lifestyle issues aside. I then gave him MormonThink to read ;).
 
LivingWaters7 said:
My experience with testimonies is slightly different. Generally, yes, gratitude or “knowing” that the restoration is true would be said, Joseph Smith being a true prophet, the Book of Mormon is true scripture, the temple (though specific people usually brought up the temple, usually the temple workers) etc. Jesus Christ would be mentioned, usually “I know that Jesus is the Christ”, “I know that Jesus is at the head of the church”, or “I know that it’s only through Jesus’ atoning sacrifice that we can return to Heavenly Father with our families” or something like that. Sometimes there would be “I know that Heavenly Father exists, and I am a daughter of God”. And yes, there would always be stories from someone’s personal life about something they experienced that week or the last month, etc. But yes, most testimonies include “I know the church is true”, and “I know that Joseph Smith was a true prophet”/“I know that the church was restored through Joseph Smith”.

It’s always amusing when someone goes off the beaten path. I remember one time when someone said something like “well, I don’t really have a testimony of the church, I’m not sure about a few things. Some things just don’t make sense, but I do believe that Jesus is my savior, and that’s what I believe right now”. Everyone was looking around like “whaaa?..”

Also, last night, one of my friends messaged me and told me that he was no longer LDS. We had a long chat (we’ll meet up in person later), and for him, it seems as if it’s more over lifestyle issues that he’s always had difficulty with over the years. Trying to be objective, I asked if he no longer knew “the church is true”. He said he wasn’t sure. I told him that he really needs to figure out if he believes the church is true, lifestyle issues aside. ** I then gave him MormonThink to read ;)**.
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That was kind of you. Whatever you do don’t give him TexanKnight’s number! :D:rotfl:
 
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