Mormons... Seriously.... Why?

[Catholic20064]

But Joseph Smith never said there were other peoples living in South America except for the Nephites, Jaredites and Lamanites. I don’t see where you come up with the fact that there were other people in South America during this time. Clearly all the wars were between these groups of people who were originally from the Middle East. I don’t see where you are coming up with that information.

Simple – they had to make it up because what the Book of Mormon actually says doesn’t square with what we actually know about Ancient America. The original Mormons did preach that the Native Americans in both North and South America were descendants of Lehi and other groups discussed in the Book of Mormon. Modern Mormons have had to backtrack because the facts are not with them.

 

[ParkerD]

Simple – they had to make it up because what the Book of Mormon actually says doesn’t square with what we actually know about Ancient America. The original Mormons did preach that the Native Americans in both North and South America were descendants of Lehi and other groups discussed in the Book of Mormon. Modern Mormons have had to backtrack because the facts are not with them.

Or, Simple–the Book of Mormon does say there would be many people in the Americas, there because they were part of God’s plan that they be there. One can read 2 Nephi 1 and figure this out. It is not hard stuff to see by reading the text. But one does have that obstacle–they must actually read the text, and think about what they are reading. Conjecturing all day or saying what one has heard others say, is simply not going to place one in a position of having read the text to see what it had to say.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

Or, Simple–the Book of Mormon does say there would be many people in the Americas, there because they were part of God’s plan that they be there. One can read 2 Nephi 1 and figure this out. It is not hard stuff to see by reading the text. But one does have that obstacle–they must actually read the text, and think about what they are reading. Conjecturing all day or saying what one has heard others say, is simply not going to place one in a position of having read the text to see what it had to say.

But I have read the text, and Joseph Smith was clearly proposing that the origins of the peoples in the Ameicas were Jews. There is no mention of other types of indigenous people in the Book of Mormon. You either were a Nephite or a Lamanite, or in the end, there was some mention of previous people who came from the Middle East called the Jaredites. All were of Jewish extraction.

 

[Catholic20064]

Or, Simple–the Book of Mormon does say there would be many people in the Americas, there because they were part of God’s plan that they be there. One can read 2 Nephi 1 and figure this out. It is not hard stuff to see by reading the text. But one does have that obstacle–they must actually read the text, and think about what they are reading. Conjecturing all day or saying what one has heard others say, is simply not going to place one in a position of having read the text to see what it had to say.

It is clear in these verses that God is supposedly talking about people that will come in the future. We now know there were many native Americans from Asia who were settled in so-called Book of Mormon lands before the Nephites supposedly arrived. Joseph Smith (or whoever in the 19th century wrote the Book of Mormon) was obviously referring to the Gentiles who would come after Columbus. You have to stretch and strain to make it refer to anyone else. Especially look at verses 8-11 of this chapter which says the land would be kept from other peoples as long as the Nephites were righteous:

8 And behold, it is wisdom that this land should be kept as yet from the knowledge of other nations; for behold, many nations would overrun the land, that there would be no place for an inheritance.
9 Wherefore, I, Lehi, have obtained a promise, that inasmuch as those whom the Lord God shall bring out of the land of Jerusalem shall keep his commandments, they shall prosper upon the face of this land; and they shall be kept from all other nations, that they may possess this land unto themselves. And if it so be that they shall keep his commandments they shall be blessed upon the face of this land, and there shall be none to molest them, nor to take away the land of their inheritance; and they shall dwell safely forever.
10 But behold, when the time cometh that they shall dwindle in unbelief, after they have received so great blessings from the hand of the Lord—having a knowledge of the creation of the earth, and all men, knowing the great and marvelous works of the Lord from the creation of the world; having power given them to do all things by faith; having all the commandments from the beginning, and having been brought by his infinite goodness into this precious land of promise—behold, I say, if the day shall come that they will reject the Holy One of Israel, the true Messiah, their Redeemer and their God, behold, the judgments of him that is just shall rest upon them.
11 Yea, he will bring other nations unto them, and he will give unto them power, and he will take away from them the lands of their possessions, and he will cause them to be scattered and smitten.

This is very obviously talking about those who would come after Columbus and defeat the Indians. I don’t see how you can read it any other way. That you would point to this chapter shows your ignorance of how the Book of Mormon has been interpreted traditionally or it shows your willingness to try to deceive people about the message of the Book of Mormon. The land was supposed to be kept from other people as long as the people were following God. That ended when the Lamanites destroyed the Nephites and rejected Jesus. Later the Gentiles were brought into the land to scatter all of the descendants of Lehi. It says nothing about other peoples being in the land at the time Lehi’s family got here. There is nothing in the Book of Mormon which makes any reference to a people besides the Jaredites, Lehi’s family and the Mulekites who came around the same time Lehi’s family arrived and who were also descendants of Israelites. Nothing about finding an Asiatic group of people in the Americas before or during the time these groups were around.

 

[Catholic20064]

But I have read the text, and Joseph Smith was clearly proposing that the origins of the peoples in the Ameicas were Jews. There is no mention of other types of indigenous people in the Book of Mormon. You either were a Nephite or a Lamanite, or in the end, there was some mention of previous people who came from the Middle East called the Jaredites. All were of Jewish extraction.

There is simply no indication in the Book of Mormon of other peoples besides the Jaredites, Lehites and Mulekites. Mormons have had to deny basic Book of Mormon doctrine because of DNA evidence which shows that Native Americans came from Asia. Their scriptures are full of problems which can’t be easily resolved. They can claim to be a Restoration of the ancient church, but their evidence is lacking.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

There is simply no indication in the Book of Mormon of other peoples besides the Jaredites, Lehites and Mulekites. Mormons have had to deny basic Book of Mormon doctrine because of DNA evidence which shows that Native Americans came from Asia. Their scriptures are full of problems which can’t be easily resolved. They can claim to be a Restoration of the ancient church, but their evidence is lacking.

Who were the Mulekites? I missed that one.

 

[Catholic20064]

Who were the Mulekites? I missed that one.

Wikipedia tells all:

According to the Book of Mormon, when Jerusalem was destroyed by Babylon during the reign of Zedekiah, all of the sons of Zedekiah were killed except Mulek.[1][2] Along with “as many as would hearken unto the voice of the Lord,” Mulek escaped into the wilderness and traveled “across the great waters” to the Americas, founding a new nation.[3] The Mulekites established their capital at Zarahemla, north of where Lehi and his people landed.[4]

Even though the word “Mulekite” or “Mulekites” never occurs in the text of the Book of Mormon, the people of his nation are commonly called the Mulekites by Latter Day Saints. This can be seen in certain chapter summaries of the Book of Mormon.[5]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mulek

 

[Catholic20064]

Mulek was supposedly a son of Zedekiah. But in several places in the Old Testament such as 2 Kings 25:7 it says the sons of Zedekiah were slain. I guess technically you could make the argument the Bible does not say that all of the sons of Zedekiah were slain, but it is interesting the Book of Mormon writer creates a surviving son of Zedekiah despite what the Old Testament says. I suppose a Mormon would use this as proof the Book of Mormon was inspired since no charlatan would have made this claim when the Bible seems to contradict it.

 

[ParkerD]

It is clear in these verses that God is supposedly talking about people that will come in the future. We now know there were many native Americans from Asia who were settled in so-called Book of Mormon lands before the Nephites supposedly arrived. Joseph Smith (or whoever in the 19th century wrote the Book of Mormon) was obviously referring to the Gentiles who would come after Columbus. You have to stretch and strain to make it refer to anyone else. Especially look at verses 8-11 of this chapter which says the land would be kept from other peoples as long as the Nephites were righteous:

This is very obviously talking about those who would come after Columbus and defeat the Indians. I don’t see how you can read it any other way. That you would point to this chapter shows your ignorance of how the Book of Mormon has been interpreted traditionally or it shows your willingness to try to deceive people about the message of the Book of Mormon. The land was supposed to be kept from other people as long as the people were following God. That ended when the Lamanites destroyed the Nephites and rejected Jesus. Later the Gentiles were brought into the land to scatter all of the descendants of Lehi. It says nothing about other peoples being in the land at the time Lehi’s family got here. There is nothing in the Book of Mormon which makes any reference to a people besides the Jaredites, Lehi’s family and the Mulekites who came around the same time Lehi’s family arrived and who were also descendants of Israelites. Nothing about finding an Asiatic group of people in the Americas before or during the time these groups were around.

Catholic20064,
I understand that your understanding of those verses is based on the assumption that the huge decimation in population after Columbus had come to America was the major fulfillment of verses 11 and 12. But re-read verses 5 and 6, and then re-think about the time frame of when the “dwindling in unbelief” happened as warned against in verse 10.

Verse 5 talks about “also all those who should be led out of other countries by the hand of the Lord.” Thanks for answering Christine’s question about the Mulekites. That is not an “only exception” case, just because the Nephites happened to encounter the Mulekite peoples and become united as a group under King Benjamin in the land of Zarahemla. But it is an important exception case. It is an example that the Nephites could go for hundreds of years on the land where they dwelt, and not be aware of another major group of people who were living not so very far from them.

The “dwindling in unbelief” happened during the centuries of 300-400 AD. That is when the prophecy about the “judgments of him that is just” and bringing “other nations unto them, and he will give unto them power” would begin to be fulfilled as a result of the wickedness of the people who had had “so great blessings from the hand of the Lord” and yet had rejected the prophets among them and begun to fight among themselves and be in continuous war. So verse 11 implies that “other nations” would be close enough in proximity to “take away from them the lands of their possessions,” and “cause them to be scattered and smitten.”

Verse 8 says “this land should be kept as yet from the knowledge of other nations”, and clearly that was fulfilled in that the general population of the Old World knew nothing about the New World and the New World population groups. But the Book of Mormon shows that there would be more than one New World population group, in order for 2 Nephi 1:11-12 to be fulfilled as prophecies that did come about.

 

[ParkerD]

But I have read the text, and Joseph Smith was clearly proposing that the origins of the peoples in the Ameicas were Jews. There is no mention of other types of indigenous people in the Book of Mormon. You either were a Nephite or a Lamanite, or in the end, there was some mention of previous people who came from the Middle East called the Jaredites. All were of Jewish extraction.

Christine,
Thanks for having read the text and trying to understand the different groups mentioned in the Book of Mormon. If you read Omni 12-17 you will read about the Mulekite group and how they were discovered (stumbled upon) by a Nephite exploratory group that was somewhat lost. The Words of Mormon and the book of Mosiah ties these two major population groups together, but note that several chapters in the book of Mosiah are “flashback” chapters and the text bounces from describing one group and one period of time to another group and a different period of time.

Best wishes to you and your loved ones, and have a wonderful Christmas.

 

[Catholic20064]

Catholic20064,
I understand that your understanding of those verses is based on the assumption that the huge decimation in population after Columbus had come to America was the major fulfillment of verses 11 and 12. But re-read verses 5 and 6, and then re-think about the time frame of when the “dwindling in unbelief” happened as warned against in verse 10.

Verse 5 talks about “also all those who should be led out of other countries by the hand of the Lord.” Thanks for answering Christine’s question about the Mulekites. That is not an “only exception” case, just because the Nephites happened to encounter the Mulekite peoples and become united as a group under King Benjamin in the land of Zarahemla. But it is an important exception case. It is an example that the Nephites could go for hundreds of years on the land where they dwelt, and not be aware of another major group of people who were living not so very far from them.

The “dwindling in unbelief” happened during the centuries of 300-400 AD. That is when the prophecy about the “judgments of him that is just” and bringing “other nations unto them, and he will give unto them power” would begin to be fulfilled as a result of the wickedness of the people who had had “so great blessings from the hand of the Lord” and yet had rejected the prophets among them and begun to fight among themselves and be in continuous war. So verse 11 implies that “other nations” would be close enough in proximity to “take away from them the lands of their possessions,” and “cause them to be scattered and smitten.”

Verse 8 says “this land should be kept as yet from the knowledge of other nations”, and clearly that was fulfilled in that the general population of the Old World knew nothing about the New World and the New World population groups. But the Book of Mormon shows that there would be more than one New World population group, in order for 2 Nephi 1:11-12 to be fulfilled as prophecies that did come about.

How can you limit this verse just to the Old World nations? That makes no sense at all. Dwindling sounds to me like a long time not a short time from 300-400 A.D. The scripture is very plain that nobody would inherit the land other than those who the Lord brought out of Jerusalem (Lehites and Mulekites) – it makes no allowance for people from other nations coming as long as these people were righteous. It would be impossible to believe the BOM allows other to live in the land at the same time as Lehi’s righteous people were in the land. In reality, mtDNA studies have shown conclusively that Asians were living in the land long before the time Lehi’s people supposedly came and also were there during the time Lehi’s people supposedly lived there. It can’t be claimed the Asians arrived after 400 A.D. The entire premise of the Book of Mormon is undermined by its own claims when it is compared with real history.

 

[ParkerD]

How can you limit this verse just to the Old World nations? That makes no sense at all. Dwindling sounds to me like a long time not a short time from 300-400 A.D. The scripture is very plain that nobody would inherit the land other than those who the Lord brought out of Jerusalem (Lehites and Mulekites) – it makes no allowance for people from other nations coming as long as these people were righteous. It would be impossible to believe the BOM allows other to live in the land at the same time as Lehi’s righteous people were in the land. In reality, mtDNA studies have shown conclusively that Asians were living in the land long before the time Lehi’s people supposedly came and also were there during the time Lehi’s people supposedly lived there. It can’t be claimed the Asians arrived after 400 A.D. The entire premise of the Book of Mormon is undermined by its own claims when it is compared with real history.

No–it is only you who cannot read and understand the text. It is your premise that is undermined. The Book of Mormon does not have the premise you have brought to the reading of it. Re-read what I already posted about the Mulekites.

 

[Catholic20064]

No–it is only you who cannot read and understand the text. It is your premise that is undermined. The Book of Mormon does not have the premise you have brought to the reading of it. Re-read what I already posted about the Mulekites.

Right …:

 

[Catholic20064]

No–it is only you who cannot read and understand the text. It is your premise that is undermined. The Book of Mormon does not have the premise you have brought to the reading of it. Re-read what I already posted about the Mulekites.

I really can’t take you folks seriously anymore. Black is white and white is black.

 

[gary_nieman]

i am a protestant believer. i’ve been a saved, serious about god, believer about 32 years. you have a wonderful way of clearly communicating what you believe. kuddos to you

 

[ParkerD]

How can you limit this verse just to the Old World nations? That makes no sense at all. Dwindling sounds to me like a long time not a short time from 300-400 A.D. The scripture is very plain that nobody would inherit the land other than those who the Lord brought out of Jerusalem (Lehites and Mulekites) – it makes no allowance for people from other nations coming as long as these people were righteous. It would be impossible to believe the BOM allows other to live in the land at the same time as Lehi’s righteous people were in the land. In reality, mtDNA studies have shown conclusively that Asians were living in the land long before the time Lehi’s people supposedly came and also were there during the time Lehi’s people supposedly lived there. It can’t be claimed the Asians arrived after 400 A.D. The entire premise of the Book of Mormon is undermined by its own claims when it is compared with real history.

Catholic20064,
Perhaps it might help if you think of Abraham and the promise to him that he and his family would inherit a “land of promise”–yet surely you realize there were other people around, other nations. It is a similar situation. “Land” does not mean “continent” or “continents”. It means a secure place of residence, apart from other people. But that doesn’t mean other people aren’t on the same continent, living somewhere else.

 

[Catholic20064]

Catholic20064,
Perhaps it might help if you think of Abraham and the promise to him that he and his family would inherit a “land of promise”–yet surely you realize there were other people around, other nations. It is a similar situation. “Land” does not mean “continent” or “continents”. It means a secure place of residence, apart from other people. But that doesn’t mean other people aren’t on the same continent, living somewhere else.

Stretching …

 

[ParkerD]

Stretching …

No, it’s called reading the Bible and understanding it. It’s called reading the Book of Mormon and understanding that the Book of Mormon is about groups of people similarly led by God, just as Abraham was led by God and the children of Israel were led by God.

 

[MrZetterlund]

No, it’s called reading the Bible and understanding it. It’s called reading the Book of Mormon and understanding that the Book of Mormon is about groups of people similarly led by God, just as Abraham was led by God and the children of Israel were led by God.

No, it’s called brainwashing, and it’s a terrible tool used by cultist Joseph Smith. The difference between God leading Native American Jews, and leading Jews to Israel, is that we’re finding Jews in Israel, and every place they were exiled to. But not in America, where the entirety of the BOM takes place.

 

[MrZetterlund]

What happend to Diana?

I’M NOT DONE WITH HER YET. :nunchuk: