Mormons: this is a BIG DEAL

[nebula]

Maybe you can all help me communicate why it matters more than anything if we believe that God is essentially just one of us (the Mormon position) or infinitely superior to us in every way (the orthodox Christian position). I’m getting so many Mormon responses over time to the effect that, well, we’re just ‘merely speculating’ about God’s nature anyway, big deal. How can I effectively communicate that this is a BIG FAT DEAL??

Here are my thoughts so far. How we conceptualize God affects how we worship him, how we think about him, well, everything. In MOrmonism the highest of rituals is about us becoming gods, not serving god. Maybe this sounds harsh, but it is literally true- think about it, why is celestial marriage the highest, the peak of Mormon ritual life? But, if you believe that we owe our very existence from moment to moment to God’s mercy, suddenly our highest ritual had better be about honoring and thanking and serving God, with no thought to us trying to progress to be him. This is only one of many examples, what else can I say?

This is really why I came to leave MOrmonism. I try to lay off of harsh statements about Mormonism, partly because I think things can become so sensationalised unfairly against Mormons, but one thing I came to realize, at that moment I said to myself “I’m no longer a Mormon” is that the theology is at its most basic level blasphemy. How can I communicate how seroius the situation is?

 

[Ruthie]

I think you said it pretty well!

“But, if you believe that we owe our very existence from moment to moment to God’s mercy, suddenly our highest ritual had better be about honoring and thanking and serving God, with no thought to us trying to progress to be him.”

There is a wide gap between hoping to be with God in Heaven, and hoping to be a god and make our own heaven.

God bless you, Nebula.

Ruthie

 

[nebula]

I think you said it pretty well!

“But, if you believe that we owe our very existence from moment to moment to God’s mercy, suddenly our highest ritual had better be about honoring and thanking and serving God, with no thought to us trying to progress to be him.”

There is a wide gap between hoping to be with God in Heaven, and hoping to be a god and make our own heaven.

God bless you, Nebula.

Ruthie

God bless you Ruthie!

I wish there was a clear way to communicate this to Mormons, but maybe it takes the grace of God to understand the importance of his glory??

 

[chewchoo]

God bless you Ruthie!

I wish there was a clear way to communicate this to Mormons, but maybe it takes the grace of God to understand the importance of his glory??

you stated your big deal very well, and yes, it is by the grace of God that we come to truly understand this. it doesn’t matter if we are a mormon “waking up” to that understanding or a catholic or an agnostic or whoever. something has to click between God’s grace and our free will.

keep stating your message and then pray for the “click” to happen.

 

[ronald_g_w]

QUOTE=nebula;4280520]Maybe you can all help me communicate why it matters more than anything if we believe that God is essentially just one of us (the Mormon position) or infinitely superior to us in every way (the orthodox Christian position). I’m getting so many Mormon responses over time to the effect that, well, we’re just ‘merely speculating’ about God’s nature anyway, big deal. How can I effectively communicate that this is a BIG FAT DEAL??

Where do you come from that God is JUST one of us, ?

By definition, God (generally meaning the Father) is the one supreme and absolute Being; the ultimate source of the universe; the all-powerful, all-knowing, all-good Creator, Ruler,and Preserver of all things. GOD IS THE ONLY SUPREME GOVERNOR AND INDEPENDENT BEING IN WHOM ALL FULNESS AND PERFECTION DWELL; who is omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient;without begining of days or end of life; and that in him every good gift and every good principle dwell; and that he is the Father of lights; in him the principle of faith dwells independently, and he is the object in whom the faith of all other rational and accountable beings centers for life and salvation

Here are my thoughts so far. How we conceptualize God affects how we worship him, how we think about him, well, everything. In MOrmonism the highest of rituals is about us becoming gods, not serving god. Maybe this sounds harsh, but it is literally true- think about it, why is celestial marriage the highest, the peak of Mormon ritual life? But, if you believe that we owe our very existence from moment to moment to God’s mercy, suddenly our highest ritual had better be about honoring and thanking and serving God, with no thought to us trying to progress to be him. This is only one of many examples, what else can I say?

If it is my objective and goal to become a god then I have lost the plot. But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. If we find at that given day that we are found worthy to be joint-heirs with Christ then we can take his words literally “I said, Ye are gods”

This is really why I came to leave MOrmonism. I try to lay off of harsh statements about Mormonism, partly because I think things can become so sensationalised unfairly against Mormons, but one thing I came to realize, at that moment I said to myself “I’m no longer a Mormon” is that the theology is at its most basic level blasphemy. How can I communicate how seroius the situation is?

If I read one of the catacisms correctly posted on one of these threads, Jesus said he came to make us gods

 

[ronald_g_w]

460 The Word became flesh to make us “partakers of the divine nature”:“For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God.” “For the Son of God became man so that we might become God.” “The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods.”

• Catechism of the Catholic Church

 

[majick275]

Where do you come from that God is JUST one of us, ?

By definition, God (generally meaning the Father) is the one supreme and absolute Being; the ultimate source of the universe; the all-powerful, all-knowing, all-good Creator, Ruler,and Preserver of all things. GOD IS THE ONLY SUPREME GOVERNOR AND INDEPENDENT BEING IN WHOM ALL FULNESS AND PERFECTION DWELL; who is omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient;without begining of days or end of life; and that in him every good gift and every good principle dwell; and that he is the Father of lights; in him the principle of faith dwells independently, and he is the object in whom the faith of all other rational and accountable beings centers for life and salvation

If it is my objective and goal to become a god then I have lost the plot. But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. If we find at that given day that we are found worthy to be joint-heirs with Christ then we can take his words literally “I said, Ye are gods”

If I read one of the catacisms correctly posted on one of these threads, Jesus said he came to make us gods

so first you appear to misrepresent the mormon position on eternal progression then you finish with the “base covering” attempt to have it both ways. (by trying to establish that theosis as understood by the early church is somehow the same thing)

The true catholic position is that we “become gods” by being “adopted” into the trinity family and thus being “placed” inside the hypostatic union we “experience” all that God is/has. this is the beatific vision.

compare and contrast this with the LDS doctrine of eternal progression.

 

[nebula]

460 The Word became flesh to make us “partakers of the divine nature”:“For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God.” “For the Son of God became man so that we might become God.” “The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods.”

• Catechism of the Catholic Church

ronald,

I see that you are very confused, so let me try to clarify the difference between exaltation and theosis.

Exaltation: teh belief that God the Father was once a man on a planet who progressed to be a god just like we can become gods. God is one of us, that is, of the same species. He is merely relatively infinite, not absolutely infinite (like a speck of dust might consider a sheet relatively but not absolutely infinite). We are to God like a newborn is to an adult. With th ehelp of an adult we too might grow to an adulthood, so it is in Mormonism with God- with God’s help we might grow to become gods because we are of the same nature as God is.

Theosis: the belief that God is absolutely infinite, we are finite and therefore we are qualitively, not just quantitatively different from God. We are to God like a pebble is to an adult, we are not of the same species at all. If we become anything it is by the grace of God. We exist by the grace of God. If God in his graciousness decides to infuse us with his divinity, it will not be because we inherently can grow to become like him, it is because he condescends to help us.

See the difference?

 

[PaulDupre]

Where do you come from that God is JUST one of us, ?

By definition, God (generally meaning the Father) is the one supreme and absolute Being; the ultimate source of the universe; the all-powerful, all-knowing, all-good Creator, Ruler,and Preserver of all things. GOD IS THE ONLY SUPREME GOVERNOR AND INDEPENDENT BEING IN WHOM ALL FULNESS AND PERFECTION DWELL; who is omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient;without begining of days or end of life; and that in him every good gift and every good principle dwell; and that he is the Father of lights; in him the principle of faith dwells independently, and he is the object in whom the faith of all other rational and accountable beings centers for life and salvation

Ron,
Apparently you don’t really believe in Mormonism, because Mormonism does not believe what you just stated. Mormonism teaches that the being you call the Heavenly Father is a human being who grew up on another planet and BECAME one of many gods by obedience to his god’s commandments and so forth back into an infinite regression of gods, none of whom is the ultimate supreme being and none of whom created the universe.

Think about it. If Elohim was a human being who became a god, who saved and exalted him? Who was HIS heavenly father? Who was Elohim’s savior? Who organized the world the spirit child Elohim was sent to to work out his salvation? Who were Elohim’s earthly parents? Infinite regress is the inescapable result of Mormonism’s “plan of salvation”.

 

[C2M2C]

Nebula, this is off topic, but I’m confused. Your post reads-

This is really why I came to leave MOrmonism.

But your blogs entry for today reads-

Why I Became a Mormon, part 1

Not trying to be disrespectful, just curious as to what the story is.

Thanks

C2M2C

 

[ronald_g_w]

QUOTE=majick275;4297107]so first you appear to misrepresent the mormon position on eternal progression

Please explain in what way mormon position is misrepresented

The true catholic position is that we “become gods” by being “adopted” into the trinity family and thus being “placed” inside the hypostatic union we “experience” all that God is/has. this is the beatific vision.

Who had this vision, where does one find it?

we “experience” all that God is/has.

How does one “experience” if we dont do like wise ?

 

[majick275]

Please explain in what way mormon position is misrepresented

your post seems to imply that Elohim has always been God and is the only God. it also waves off the goal of becoming a God yourself with spirit children who would then come to an earth and repeat the process. actual LDS doctrine is clear on these things.

Mormons are trying to gain “exaltation” which means becoming Gods themselves. Eternal progression also encompasses regression and thus Elohim was once a mortal man with a heavenly father of his own and a savior as well.

these are key differences between mormon and catholic doctrine and shouldn’t be marginalized with redirection.

 

[ronald_g_w]

ronald,

I see that you are very confused, so let me try to clarify the difference between exaltation and theosis.

I sure hope God has not got pebbles for sons

 

[ronald_g_w]

Ron,

Apparently you don’t really believe in Mormonism, because Mormonism does not believe what you just stated.

 

[PaulDupre]

ronald g w:

How do you work this out, then what you are saying is that Jesus Christ is relatively infinite and not absolutely infinite, if coming to dwell on a earth for a period is the factor. I do not think so

What you mormons don’t understand is that Jesus is GOD and has always been God. When He condescended to be born as a man, he did not become less infinite and less divine. He is GOD.

What Mormons teach is that God has not always been God, but started out as a mere mortal, and then progressed to what Mormons call “godhood”. That is not the same God that Christians worship.

 

[PaulDupre]

Are you refering to “By definition, God (generally meaning the Father) is the one supreme and absolute Being;”
If you are, please ask another Mormon what they think ?

It doesn’t matter what individual Mormons think. Most rank-and-file Mormons are unaware of what their church teaches and believe in a more Christian view of God.

I am talking about what the Mormon organization officially teaches, which is that Heavenly Father is an ascended master - a human being who started out as a mortal and progressed to “godhood”. IOW, the Mormon god is just one of us, only more advanced.

Do not know the answer and its has no relavance to my eternal salvation - All I know is that Heavenly Father is “the one supreme and absolute Being;” that we give reverance to.

The bible teaches:

And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. - John 17:3

If part of eternal life is knowing the only true God, then I would say that accepting the true nature of God as He has revealed himself to us is very important to your salvation. If you believe that God is a winged goat, I’ll bet that would decrease your chances of salvation. Likewise, if you believe God to be just some guy who happened to make it to the big time (as the Mormon organization teaches), then that would also endanger your salvation.

BTW, I am very happy that you don’t accept the Mormon view of God.

 

[nebula]

Nebula, this is off topic, but I’m confused. Your post reads-

But your blogs entry for today reads-

Not trying to be disrespectful, just curious as to what the story is.

Thanks

C2M2C

C2,

No problem. On my blog I am sharing why I joined Mormonism in the first place. I subsequently left it (I was a Mormon for about 7 years). I hope that clarifies.

 

[nebula]

I sure hope God has not got pebbles for sons

This really isn’t very complicated. There was a time, in Mormonism, that Elohim was not a god. There are multiple gods and goddesses in Mormonism. All of this is drawn from LDS published texts (Gospel Principles manual, Bible dictionary, Proclamation on the Family)

How is that NOT different from the position that there is One God who is eternal and absolutely infinite?

 

[ronald_g_w]

QUOTE=PaulDupre;4299909]It doesn’t matter what individual Mormons think. Most rank-and-file Mormons are unaware of what their church teaches and believe in a more Christian view of God.

I think more LDS are aware of what their church teaches than do most other faiths.

By definition, God (generally meaning the Father) is the one supreme and absolute Being; the ultimate source of the universe; the all-powerful, all-knowing, all-good Creator, Ruler,and Preserver of all things. God is the only supreme governor and independent being in whom all fulness and perfection dwell; who is omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient;without begining of days or end of life; and that in him every good gift and every good principle dwell; and that he is the Father of lights; in him the principle of faith dwells independently, and he is the object in whom the faith of all other rational and accountable beings centers for life and salvation

The above is what we believe - and - that “God himself was once as we are now” and that we may become perfect as he is perfect and become holy as he is holy “The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods.”

This is what I believe to be the true nature of God, an exalted being who I can relate to

 

[ronald_g_w]

This really isn’t very complicated. There was a time, in Mormonism, that Elohim was not a god. There are multiple gods and goddesses in Mormonism. All of this is drawn from LDS published texts (Gospel Principles manual, Bible dictionary, Proclamation on the Family)

How is that NOT different from the position that there is One God who is eternal and absolutely infinite?

I am well aware they are worlds apart I just do not see how you come to your conclusion. I realise that God is known only by revelation; he stands revealed or remains forever unknown.