Mormons to build temple in Rome

[mfbukowski]

We were not talking about statements. We were talking about facts - being either true or false. Statements can contain truth and falsity. The facts they intend to communicate (or miscommunicate) are fixed as true or false. This is a concept that does not change with time, unless you believe that Truth is not a constant.

Peace,
-Robert

Facts are statements, truth does change. When the context changes, truth changes. I mentioned this before. Let’s try to keep from going over the same stuff.

The fact “pluto is a planet” used to be true. Now it is false.

I could look up other similar examples, but don’t have the time

Let’s postulate one so you will see my point. I am certain there are many of this type:

"There are no fish that have (insert characteristic – perhaps “lungs”) A fish with lungs is discovered. The truth of the statement (“fact”) changes.

I am certain this goes on in physics several times a year.

In philosophical terminology there is no difference between “facts”
“statements” and “propositions”.

In the morning you say “I am in bed” which is a true proposition

You get out of bed.

The truth of that proposition has just changed. If you called your boss and told him that you were in bed, it would be a lie.

 

[mfbukowski]

I’m not disagreeing with you on this narrow point. My point is that it’s not a basis for confirming the truth of religious doctrine. Perhaps I should clarify that I’m not talking about proving for the person who had the revelation. Where I think such revelation holds no weight is where a person tells me I should believe exactly what they believe because THEY had a revelation.
-Robert

No one believes this. I have had a revelation that the Book of Mormon is true. From this I infer that Joseph was a prophet.

I am not asking you to become mormon because of my revelation.

Should you be so inclined, I am confident you could get your own revelation that The BOM is true.

 

[mfbukowski]

A secondary question that arises from the first point is that there is no way to absolutely verify that a private revelation comes from God, as opposed to some human or nefarious spirit source. However, I am sure that in many cases the one experiencing the personal revelation is “sure” that God was the source. JS and St. FK both thought this was the case. One of them was wrong unless God is inconsistent. I don’t think either of us will concede the latter.

Peace,
-Robert

I am not familiar with the Faustina you are discussing, or her revelation.

I agree that God is consistent, but I also believe that sometimes it may not appear so. I believe for example it is possible that you would receive a genuine revelation that you should be a Catholic and I receive one that I should be a Mormon.

God moves us from where we are to where we will be closer to him.

Imagine a person in the far reaches of Siberia who has never heard of Jesus Christ. Suddenly, the Baptist church opens a mission nearby.

I believe that God could give that person a perfectly valid revelation to become a Baptist because it is better for one to be a Baptist than it is to be nothing. That is also why I am grateful for what I believe was the “apostate” Catholic church spreading the gospel of Jesus Christ throughout the world for 2000 years before God restored “the details” of the truth. The gospel of Jesus Christ was always on the earth, it was just incomplete.

There is a Mormon who posts here often who tells the story of a friend who was LDS who decided to leave the church and join the Presbyterians, and was convinced that he had a revelation to do so.

(I hope I have the story right, but I stand to be corrected by the original poster if he feels like it and sees this)

The person was called by the Presbyterians to set up some ecumenical activities with the Mormons because of his acquaintance with our church. He did so, and many great things were accomplished in establishing understanding between the churches.

After this project was finished, and upon further study, he again had a revelation to re-join the LDS church, which he did, and today is a faithful Mormon again.

When he joined the Presbyterians he had no idea where they would put him, but the leadership did what they felt was “best”. In my opinion, both he and the Presbyterian leadership were inspired to move everyone closer to Christ.

 

[mfbukowski]

We would call this discernment, not revelation. (Although a person could experience a direct revelation from God, who reveals something of the truth of his nature in relation to a doctrine.)

Again, perhaps the distinction is that what you would call revelation about a doctrine, we would call discernment.

It’s not surprising that members of the LDS Church who grew up in the community believing in mormon truth, and converts who found a place in which they feel they can “belong” would have “revelations” that coincided with and confirmed the teaching of the Church. Again, it’s no proof at all that the teaching is true. It only shows that people who belong to the group think the same way about doctrine Indeed, they MUST think this way or… as you say… they leave!

Peace,
-Robert

Call it what you will, it is a message from God. I don’t care what words you use.

All members of the church are encouraged to become “converts” and develop their “own testimonies”.

There is no question that those who are Mormons think alike. I am not used to blogging really which is probably obvious, but recently I am also checking out the mormon blog sites after hanging out here for a while. It is amazing to me how different the feel is over there. It is hard to describe exactly what it is.

I think it derives from the fact that all have similar outlooks on the world. I am convinced that there are sets of personality traits that make one Mormon. There are disagreements between members of course, but there is a great commonality of outlook.

It is not easy to be a Mormon, and I think those who stick with it have strong reasons for doing so. You will disagree, but I know that it is the “testimony experience” which makes the difference.

One should not be baptized Mormon unless one has had the “testimony experience”, except really in the case of little children. I am sure that there are some 8 year olds who understand it, and others who do not. But nevertheless, by the time they are adults they should have had their own experiences.

Those who fall away are probably in this category. I know I will hear from all the apostate Mormons here now, but that is what I feel. Once you have that experience, you cannot deny it. It is SO mistaken to call it “the warm fuzzies”!

 

[Robert_in_SD]

Facts are statements, truth does change. When the context changes, truth changes. I mentioned this before. Let’s try to keep from going over the same stuff.

I have to keep going over it again and again, because you have the fundamentals wrong. Facts are NOT statements. Statements are conclusions.
mfb:

The fact “pluto is a planet” used to be true. Now it is false.

This is a conclusion that has been proven to be incorrect. Pluto exists. The label that we attach to it does not change what it is. It did not shrink or change substance when scientists decided that Pluto was too small to support the conclusion that Pluto is a planet. Let’s be careful about how we use words. If we don’t, we fall into error.

"There are no fish that have (insert characteristic – perhaps “lungs”) A fish with lungs is discovered. The truth of the statement (“fact”) changes.

The fact (there are fish with lungs) remains the same. Only the conclusion changes. Conclusions are not facts.

Peace,
-Robert

 

[Chris-WA]

Facts are statements, truth does change. When the context changes, truth changes.

Ouch! Truth changes??? My friend, truth does not change. Truth is immovable, immutable, and constant. Our ability to recognize the truth changes, and we can continually learn more about the truth, but the truth itself never changes, just like God Himself never changes. One of my favorite Catholic apologists, Father John Corapi, always puts it this way–truth isn’t something, it’s somebody–Jesus Christ.

Of course, a believing LDS may have to accept your notion of changeable truth, since that seems to frequently occur in LDS teaching.

 

[Robert_in_SD]

I am not familiar with the Faustina you are discussing, or her revelation.

She is the Polish Catholic nun who experienced visions of Christ that led to the Divine Mercy prayer. You can read about her here.
mfb:

I agree that God is consistent, but I also believe that sometimes it may not appear so.

I can agree that sometimes it’s not apparent. But where there are directly inconsistent “revelations” I do not accept the possibility that God is speaking different truths to different people. That moves people apart and creates division. God is not a God of chaos.
mfb:

God moves us from where we are to where we will be closer to him.

Perhaps. And your examples (himalayas and presbyterians) are interesting to ponder. But they don’t really address the doctrinal problems that I see occurring with ongoing personal revelation. One person receives a “revelation” that plural marriage is what they are called to while another is given a “revelation” that marriage is to be one man/one woman. Both revelations cannot come from a God who IS Truth. Someone was lied to, or deceived themself.
mfb:

That is also why I am grateful for what I believe was the “apostate” Catholic church spreading the gospel of Jesus Christ throughout the world for 2000 years before God restored “the details” of the truth. The gospel of Jesus Christ was always on the earth, it was just incomplete.

If it was incomplete at any time after Christ, then Christ lied when he told Peter “And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it.” (Mt. 16:18) However, on behalf of the Catholic Church, you’re welcome.
mfb:

There is a Mormon who posts here often who tells the story of a friend who was LDS who decided to leave the church and join the Presbyterians, and was convinced that he had a revelation to do so… When he joined the Presbyterians he had no idea where they would put him, but the leadership did what they felt was “best”. In my opinion, both he and the Presbyterian leadership were inspired to move everyone closer to Christ.

And yet, one or more of these two groups still does not have the fullness of the Gospel. And there is still doctrinal confusion - although there is an improved ecumenical relationship. Perhaps at some point God will move all of the LDS Church members back home to the Catholic Church? If LDS members receive such a revelation, will they heed it, or will they reject it based on what has been previously revealed?

Peace,
-Robert

 

[Chris-WA]

Those who fall away are probably in this category. I know I will hear from all the apostate Mormons here now, but that is what I feel. Once you have that experience, you cannot deny it. It is SO mistaken to call it “the warm fuzzies”!

Yet there are those ex-Mormons who had the same types of experiences you had, but correctly realized later on that’s just not enough to guarantee truth. There are many people who are absolutely convinced of the truth of something, but then somehow further investigation or experience leads them to an opposite conclusion. Mormons are taught from the time they’re little kids that these experiences are sure fire evidence that the church is true. And this is also hammered into converts from the very beginning as well. This I believe is a great deception, because it steers the importance away from really knowing about something and towards feelings as the primary justification for faith.

Faith should never be based on our feelings, for a whole slew of reasons. I also find it strange how if Mormons really “know” their church is true, then where does faith enter into the equation? Faith is believing in something you don’t know for certain like you know other things. Once you know something for certain, faith is no longer required to believe in that thing (i.e., I don’t need faith to believe that 1 + 1 = 2 because I know that 1 + 1 = 2).

Now I do believe that the Holy Spirit gives us promptings one way or the other, and that faith is a gift from God. But I certainly don’t require a burning in my bosom that Catholicism is or is not true. That’s not the basis for my faith.

Frankly, Mormonism seems more concerned with “knowing” whether or not the church is true than it is with worshipping God. The object of worship at many an LDS sacrament meeting seems to be the church itself rather than God. Everything is about how great the church is, or how I’m so glad I’m a member of the church, or about how important it is to have a testimony of the church. The church, the church, the church. Mormons spend more time talking about the church or the prophet than they do about God, Jesus, or the Holy Spirit. Gosh if I had to sit through that week after week for years on end, I would probably believe it too! It’s the mind-numbing experience of group think.

Now contrast that with the Catholic mass. From beginning to end, the mass is focussed on worshipping God, not about how wonderful the church is and what a great thing it is to be a member. The focus is upward to God, not inward to the church itself. This is a completely different perspective than LDS worship.

 

[mfbukowski]

I have to keep going over it again and again, because you have the fundamentals wrong. Facts are NOT statements. Statements are conclusions.

This is a conclusion that has been proven to be incorrect. Pluto exists. The label that we attach to it does not change what it is. It did not shrink or change substance when scientists decided that Pluto was too small to support the conclusion that Pluto is a planet. Let’s be careful about how we use words. If we don’t, we fall into error.

The fact (there are fish with lungs) remains the same. Only the conclusion changes. Conclusions are not facts.

Peace,
-Robert

I am not familiar with this epistemological position, or the terminology you are using. Who propounded it?

I think we don’t have much more to discuss about this. My views rely on the philosophy of James and Wittgenstein.

 

[mfbukowski]

And yet, one or more of these two groups still does not have the fullness of the Gospel. And there is still doctrinal confusion - although there is an improved ecumenical relationship. Perhaps at some point God will move all of the LDS Church members back home to the Catholic Church? If LDS members receive such a revelation, will they heed it, or will they reject it based on what has been previously revealed?

Peace,
-Robert

I will follow the truth where it leads me. But you do not believe such a revelation is possible, so why do you ask the question?

 

[mfbukowski]

Yet there are those ex-Mormons who had the same types of experiences you had, but correctly realized later on that’s just not enough to guarantee truth. There are many people who are absolutely convinced of the truth of something, but then somehow further investigation or experience leads them to an opposite conclusion. Mormons are taught from the time they’re little kids that these experiences are sure fire evidence that the church is true. And this is also hammered into converts from the very beginning as well. This I believe is a great deception, because it steers the importance away from really knowing about something and towards feelings as the primary justification for faith…

Now contrast that with the Catholic mass. From beginning to end, the mass is focussed on worshipping God, not about how wonderful the church is and what a great thing it is to be a member. The focus is upward to God, not inward to the church itself. This is a completely different perspective than LDS worship.

I joined the church at age 31. I got a Book of Mormon, prayed about it, had an amazing experience, and then had to seek out the missionaries to get baptized. My first statement to a Mormon missionary was “how quickly can I get baptized?” Nothing was “hammered” into my head, nor was I trained as a child.

You really should not make blanket statements about people you do not know.

As you might have noticed, my entire life I have been a very skeptical person. I believe nothing unless it can be proven.

Before I had my experience I was an agnostic, though raised Catholic. I gave up on Catholicism because it made no sense. I was catholic I would say up until about age 20.

And for Robert in SD, I went to Saint Augustine HS in San Diego.

I understand how you feel about the catholic mass. It sounds like you are talking about fast and testimony meeting which only happens once a month.

The temple ceremonies are much more like a catholic mass and are focused totally on the savior. That is where my most profound feelings of unity with Him occurr, except during the sacrament itself.

 

[mfbukowski]

Faith should never be based on our feelings, for a whole slew of reasons. I also find it strange how if Mormons really “know” their church is true, then where does faith enter into the equation? Faith is believing in something you don’t know for certain like you know other things. Once you know something for certain, faith is no longer required to believe in that thing (i.e., I don’t need faith to believe that 1 + 1 = 2 because I know that 1 + 1 = 2).

You are right, but you misunderstand our position. There is a famous chapter in the Book of Mormon which explains it. Alma 32. The quote is too long to post, but the portion which is most relevant to this issue starts with verse 21

scriptures.lds.org/en/alma/32

 

[zaffiroborant]

He was pointing out the anti-mormon posts here ! (really)

Maybe he picked a side finally?

Never a question with you though as your posts over there show. I’m starting to see over there what you accuse people here of doing.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Never a question with you though as your posts over there show. I’m starting to see over there what you accuse people here of doing.

It’s interesting isn’t it?

 

[Chris-WA]

I joined the church at age 31. I got a Book of Mormon, prayed about it, had an amazing experience, and then had to seek out the missionaries to get baptized. My first statement to a Mormon missionary was “how quickly can I get baptized?” Nothing was “hammered” into my head, nor was I trained as a child.

I cannot see into your heart and truly know your experience, but from what you said above it seems as though you based your quick conversion entirely on this experience. So unless you’re willing to tell me that Christ personally appeared to you like he appeard to St. Paul on the road to Demascus, I’m not sure why your experience would be enough to get you running to the missionaries. You have not be willing to explain your experience so it’s a bit of a mystery. I would also point out that the adversary is also capable of giving warm experiences to us when we’re searching for truth, so one better be sure who they’re dealing with.

You really should not make blanket statements about people you do not know.

While I admit this does not apply to every Mormon, I have been closely associated with them for almost 20 years continuously and I can safely say that my statement applies to a great many.

Before I had my experience I was an agnostic, though raised Catholic. I gave up on Catholicism because it made no sense. I was catholic I would say up until about age 20.

So it’s obvious you had some pretty lousy catechism. Join the club. But you threw the baby out with the bath water, just like Martin Luther did, and now you’re partaking of a cheap imitation of the Eucharist via Wonderbread and a tiny cup of water rather than receiving the genuine body, blood, soul, and divinity of Jesus Christ. That is the difference between Mormonism and Catholicism. Come back to the true meal Christ intended you to have!

I understand how you feel about the catholic mass. It sounds like you are talking about fast and testimony meeting which only happens once a month

.
Yes, open mic Sunday at the local ward building cannot even come close to comparing with the holy mass. But it’s not just fast Sunday, it’s the same the other three Sundays as well. The speakers are given a topic, and they all manage to end up somehow focusing on how great the church is, and how wonderful the prophet is, and how lucky they are to be a member. It’s absolutely mind-numbing. It’s not worship. It’s more like Sunday school at a political convention where everyone just nods in agreement in a massive group-think.

The temple ceremonies are much more like a catholic mass and are focused totally on the savior. That is where my most profound feelings of unity with Him occurr, except during the sacrament itself.

I don’t know which temple ceremonies you’re talking about, but they’re nothing like a Catholic mass. And even if they were, this should give you some pause. Sunday worship, no matter what church you go to, should always be focussed on Jesus Christ. The LDS Sunday worship is not. Secret temple ceremonies for a select few doesn’t make up for that.

 

[lacer]

aren’t we glad you had this discussion?
so little is accomplished and it really just discourages any hope of humanity overcoming pride and the judgements that come with it.
there really seems to be no solution but to completely avoid such tedious conversations. acceptance really is just too much to ask

 

[PaulDupre]

The temple ceremonies are much more like a catholic mass and are focused totally on the savior.

Which temple ceremonies are focused on the savior??? You forget that many of us here have attended the temple many times and know that the endowment is a quasi-Masonic ceremony focused on Adam, Lucifer, Peter, James, John and ME (or the dead guy I’m going through for). Jesus’ only mention in the endowment is an off-camera voice commanding “Michael” to “go down” and when his name is invoked to cast Satan out. Otherwise, Jesus is hardly mentioned.

Saying that the ceremonies in the LDS temples are like a Catholic Mass is highly insulting to Catholics.

 

[PaulDupre]

aren’t we glad you had this discussion?
so little is accomplished and it really just discourages any hope of humanity overcoming pride and the judgements that come with it.
there really seems to be no solution but to completely avoid such tedious conversations. acceptance really is just too much to ask

You’re right, lacer - I’m ashamed of myself. We should just sit back and let the Mormon lies go unchallenged. We should let them freely go about deceiving Christians into worshipping a false god.

What was I thinking?

 

[lacer]

You’re right, lacer - I’m ashamed of myself. We should just sit back and let the Mormon lies go unchallenged. We should let them freely go about deceiving Christians into worshipping a false god.

What was I thinking?

ha… you’re sarcasm is enjoyable
but honestly idk if anyone has really accomplished andything. seems like a pretty even race to me.
if everyone is equally passionate and hard headed what’s the point? you aren’t pursuading anyone differently

 

[PaulDupre]

ha… you’re sarcasm is enjoyable
but honestly idk if anyone has really accomplished andything. seems like a pretty even race to me.
if everyone is equally passionate and hard headed what’s the point? you aren’t pursuading anyone differently

For every member who contributes to a thread, there are at least 4 lurkers looking on. I post more for them than for the TBMs who come here. The TBMs deliberately misdirect, obfuscate and misrepresent their beliefs and ours. I hold little or no hope for them. But there are many looking on who are really looking for information. I will not let Mormon lies go unchallenged.

Being an ex-Mormon myself, I know their tactics.