Mormons to Mark 30th anniversary of blacks in priesthood

[Alma147]

are you joking? do you really want to proclaim from an academic point of view that mormon doctrine isn’t racist?

Read what I wrote. Your “response” is a change of subject.

Alma

 

[Alma147]

Abraham 1:24-26 would be the most direct to your attempt at hair splitting.
these all set the tone though:
moses 6:8
1 nephi 12:23
1 nephi 13:15
2 nephi 5:21
2 nephi 30:6
3 nephi 2:14,15
jacob 3:8,9

numerous teachings of brigham young (who was quite clear that his sermons were scripture), john taylor, joseph fielding smith, ezra taft benson and spencer kimball in their roles as prophets and apostles give an exegesis showing these scriptures to justify racism and they specifically taught that blacks were not to be given the priesthood by divine prohibition. this doctrine was addressed by apostle mark e petersen in great detail at BYU when he addressed the convention of college level LDS religion teachers in 1954. it was also explored in depth by Bruce R. Mconkie. none of it was ever denounced or refuted by LDS general authorities. even the OD granting the priesthood to “all worthy males” doesn’t do this. it doesn’t say this was wrong or a misapplication or anything of the kind. it states the prohibition has expired. Gordon b hinkley admitted all of this and merely claimed that God decreed it.

perhaps you would be willing to allow us to see this essay tht was published in a peer reviewed book. (are you saying that the essay itself was peer reviewed? by what peers?)

I see. You provide a list of scriptures, none of which state that blacks couldn’t have the priesthood and somehow think that’s a valid response to my asking for a citation?

The book was “Black and Mormon” edited by Newell Bringhurst and Darron Smith. You can find reviews of it on the web and even buy it at Amazon. My essay was titled, “The Traditions of Their Fathers: Myth versus Reality in LDS Scriptural Writings.” It was peer reviewed by LDS, ex-LDS and non-LDS scholars before publication.

Alma

 

[armyross]

I see. You provide a list of scriptures, none of which state that blacks couldn’t have the priesthood and somehow think that’s a valid response to my asking for a citation?

The book was “Black and Mormon” edited by Newell Bringhurst and Darron Smith. You can find reviews of it on the web and even buy it at Amazon. My essay was titled, “The Traditions of Their Fathers: Myth versus Reality in LDS Scriptural Writings.” It was peer reviewed by LDS, ex-LDS and non-LDS scholars before publication.

Alma

Ok then Alma why could Blacks not have it then?

 

[majick275]

Holy Bible
Book of Mormon
Doctrine and Covenants
Pearl of Great Price.

Alma

does that include the introductions, prefaces, title pages, footnotes, etc. (everything inside the covers) or just the numbered verses?

current version only?
regarding the bible, KJV only or JST as well?

 

[majick275]

I see. You provide a list of scriptures, none of which state that blacks couldn’t have the priesthood and somehow think that’s a valid response to my asking for a citation?

The book was “Black and Mormon” edited by Newell Bringhurst and Darron Smith. You can find reviews of it on the web and even buy it at Amazon. My essay was titled, “The Traditions of Their Fathers: Myth versus Reality in LDS Scriptural Writings.” It was peer reviewed by LDS, ex-LDS and non-LDS scholars before publication.

Alma

actually abraham 1 does it as i said. i figured you were taking the hair splitting approach of defining this as a scripture that states blacks can’t have the priesthood. this is about as intellectually dishonest as you can get. which “scholars” reviewed it? we all know that the LDS prohibited blacks from the holding priesthood and taught that was firmly grounded in scripture and confirmed by modern prophets as being God’s will. the 1978 OD confirms this as well. while not using the exact wording that you require it is clear that prior to this it was god’s will that this be so and now the “promised day” has come when it can end.

so do we do the legal wrangle over semantics, staying only on your assertion that the LDS scriptures did not prohibit blacks having the priesthood or can we honestly and openly discuss LDS institutionalized racism?

 

[Alma147]

actually abraham 1 does it as i said.

You have utterly failed to demonstrate what you claimed was a fact: “How can they say that keeping blacks out of the priesthood was not LDS doctrine?? It is in their scriptures.”

The fact is, it isn’t in our scriptures and your pathetic attempts at calling me “intellectually dishonest” don’t really address the issue. There is no mention anywhere in the Book of Abraham of skin color or the work “black.”

It isn’t “hair splitting” to ask someone to stand behind their own statements. What I find to be intellectually dishonest is for you to make claim, and then when challenged to substantiate it to see you post irrelevant sources that don’t validate your claim as though they do. It’s as I said, “pathetic.”

Alma

 

[armyross]

Ok then Alma why could Blacks not have it then?

 

[Alma147]

does that include the introductions, prefaces, title pages, footnotes, etc. (everything inside the covers) or just the numbered verses?

current version only?
regarding the bible, KJV only or JST as well?

No, when the LDS Church has canonized scripture, they have only canonized the text and not the footnotes or dictionaries that accompany them. The JST has never been canonized and while the KJV is the official Bible for English speaking LDS people, I prefer my Catholic Bibles in foreign languages over Protestant Bibles even though all of them would be considered scripture to Mormons.

Alma

 

[armyross]

armyross:
I am still waiting

 

[majick275]

You have utterly failed to demonstrate what you claimed was a fact: “How can they say that keeping blacks out of the priesthood was not LDS doctrine?? It is in their scriptures.”

The fact is, it isn’t in our scriptures and your pathetic attempts at calling me “intellectually dishonest” don’t really address the issue. There is no mention anywhere in the Book of Abraham of skin color or the work “black.”

It isn’t “hair splitting” to ask someone to stand behind their own statements. What I find to be intellectually dishonest is for you to make claim, and then when challenged to substantiate it to see you post irrelevant sources that don’t validate your claim as though they do. It’s as I said, “pathetic.”

Alma

i substantiated my claim quite well. you are choosing to redefine terms in ways that allow you to carry this out to absurdity. get real. mormon leaders taught that black people couldn’t hold the priesthood because the book of abraham said so. i know and you know it. we ahve LDS leaders saying canaan means black. the curse means black skin, i’m sure your approach is popular at FAIR but it won’t fly here. i never claimed LDS scriptures contained the sentence “blacks can’t have the priesthood”. i claimed that it cannot be denied that it is LDS doctrine because IT (the doctrine of denying blacks the priesthood) is in their scriptures. it IS there. i showed you where and you want to debate semantics knowing that won’t help because the actions and the words of LDS leaders show my position to be correct

 

[BartBurk]

The Bible does not say what exactly that this mark was. The idea that the mark was dark skin is a man-made construct dating from the eighteenth century.

Please give other examples where the Bible is racist - and I don’t mean examples where the Israelites fought with other nations or whatever, I mean places where God/Jesus is said to have damned people based solely on skin color. Examples from the New Testament would be especially interesting.

Find me a verse in Mormon scripture in which God says people are damned because of skin color. Even before blacks were given the priesthood they were allowed to be baptized and inherit the celestial kingdom. And of course Mormonism has always held that unbaptized babies were automatically saved in heaven. Considering the number of unbaptized black babies who have died, it would seem Calvinist rantings about unbaptized damned babies were much worse than anything Mormonism had to offer. And Mormonism always held out the hope that eventually everyone would have the opportunity to enter heaven through temple work – even blacks were eventually going to receive the priesthood and have the opportunity to enter the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom. It was delayed for them, but the opportunity was always going to be provided in the future.

I would say Augustine was far more racist than Mormonism because he actually believed unbaptized babies were predestined for hell through no fault of their own other than being born.

 

[ibkc]

Find me a verse in Mormon scripture in which God says people are damned because of skin color.

2 Nephi 5:21
21 And the Lord had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.

                 Alma                        3: 6 "**And the skins of the Lamanites were dark,                        according to the mark which was set upon their fathers,                        which was a curse upon them** because of their transgression                        and their rebellion against their brethren, who consisted                        of Nephi, Jacob, and Joseph, and Sam, who were just and                        holy men."

I would say Augustine was far more racist than Mormonism because he actually believed unbaptized babies were predestined for hell through no fault of their own other than being born.

How is that racist? Do you not know what racism means?

 

[ibkc]

Alma,
If there is nothing in LDS scripture to say that black people could not have the priesthood - although we all know this is a disingenuous claim because there are plenty of LDS scriptures that rationalize the exclusion of people because of color - then why was the priesthood denied to black people for so long?

 

[ibkc]

Also, how come there has never been a non-white Apostle?

There have always been bishops of every race in the Catholic Church, even African popes. Doubtless there would have been more, as northern Africa was strongly Christian before the followers of Mohammed invaded.

 

[majick275]

Find me a verse in Mormon scripture in which God says people are damned because of skin color.

i think it more accurate to state that in mormon doctrine skin color is the evidence of the damning. thus they aren’t damned because of their skin color but rather their skin color is because they are damned.

Even before blacks were given the priesthood they were allowed to be baptized and inherit the celestial kingdom.

yes Brigham young said they could be servants there.

And of course Mormonism has always held that unbaptized babies were automatically saved in heaven.

but not which heaven

Considering the number of unbaptized black babies who have died, it would seem Calvinist rantings about unbaptized damned babies were much worse than anything Mormonism had to offer.

see above

And Mormonism always held out the hope that eventually everyone would have the opportunity to enter heaven through temple work – even blacks were eventually going to receive the priesthood and have the opportunity to enter the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom. It was delayed for them, but the opportunity was always going to be provided in the future.

the reason for the “delay” is in my opinion problematic as it implies some deficiency in the pre-existence. it along with the lamanite skin cursing seems at odds with LDS article of faith about only being punished for your own sins. inheriting a “cursed” skin color thus can only be justified if the individual deserved it because of the pre-existence. (which casts a shadow over the fate of the infants) and still…even within the celestial kingdom there are three degrees and we just don’t have much info on what those are. BY taught that the highest was exaltation and worthy polygamists are there. he also taught that there would be ministering servants there. (this was also reinforced in later years by others) so we still have a potential issue even then.

I would say Augustine was far more racist than Mormonism because he actually believed unbaptized babies were predestined for hell through no fault of their own other than being born.

augustine had a number of issues. he was a brilliant writer and in a time of little written teachings on Christianity he gave us a lot of good. he was not infallible though and some of his work was just flat out wrong. he is not a source of binding doctrine but rather commentary on it… kind of like bruce r mconkie’s mormon doctrine.

 

[PaulDupre]

Interesting. I wrote an essay about 10 years ago published by University of Illinois Press in a peer reviewed book where I noted there is no scripture that blacks cannot hold the priesthood. Too bad you weren’t one of the reviewers–you could have provided a citation. Care do offer one now?

Alma

Sure.

1. The mark of Cain was black skin:

22 And Enoch also beheld the residue of the people which

were the sons of Adam; and they were a mixture of all the seed of Adam save it was the seed of Cain, for the seed of Cain were black, and had not place among them. - Book of Moses 7:22

This was confirmed by prophet, seer and revelator Brigham Young:

“Cain slew his brother…and the Lord put a mark upon him, which is the flat nose and black skin. - Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses Vol. 7 pp. 290-291

1. This black seed of Cain through Ham could not hold the priesthood:

Abraham 1:21-24,27
21 Now this king of Egypt was a descendant from the loins of Ham, and was a partaker of the blood of the Canaanites by birth.
22 From this descent sprang all the Egyptians, and thus the blood of the Canaanites was preserved in the land.
23 The land of Egypt being first discovered by a woman, who was the daughter of Ham, and the daughter of Egyptus, which in the Chaldean signifies Egypt, which signifies that which is forbidden;
24 When this woman discovered the land it was under water, who afterward settled her sons in it; and thus, from Ham, sprang that race which preserved the curse in the land.
27 Now, Pharaoh being of that lineage by which he could not have the right of Priesthood, notwithstanding the Pharaohs would fain claim it from Noah, through Ham, therefore my father was led away by their idolatry;

This was confirmed by the Mormon prophets:

Cain slew his brother. Cain might have been killed, and that would have put a termination to that line of human beings. This was not to be, and the Lord put a mark upon him, which is the flat nose and black skin. Trace mankind down to after the flood, and then another curse is pronounced upon the same race - that they should be the “servant of servants;” and they will be, until that curse is removed; and the Abolitionists cannot help it, nor in the least alter that decree. How long is that race to endure the dreadful curse that is upon them? That curse will remain upon them, [p.291] and they never can hold the Priesthood or share in it until all the other descendants of Adam have received the promises and enjoyed the blessings of the Priesthood and the keys thereof. - Journal of Discourses 7:290-291

 

[MelanieAnne]

Alma,
If there is nothing in LDS scripture to say that black people could not have the priesthood - although we all know this is a disingenuous claim because there are plenty of LDS scriptures that rationalize the exclusion of people because of color - then why was the priesthood denied to black people for so long?

This is one of those touchy subjects with Mormons, kinda like polygamy. They don’t like the subject to be brought up.

 

[armyross]

This is one of those touchy subjects with Mormons, kinda like polygamy. They don’t like the subject to be brought up.

I can tell. I have also asked twice. I guess I don’t get a answer either.

 

[ralphinal]

would say Augustine was far more racist than Mormonism because he actually believed unbaptized babies were predestined for hell through no fault of their own other than being born.

Interesting point. At what time did Augustine speak for the entire Church? At what point was any racism of his institutionallized?

 

[estesbob]

Holy Bible
Book of Mormon
Doctrine and Covenants
Pearl of Great Price.

Alma

Alma:

Thi is not a leading question or a challenge or anything like that. I have heard that Joseph Smith changed and deleted many verses in the Holy Bible. is this true?