Mormons to Mark 30th anniversary of blacks in priesthood

[BartBurk]

not exactly the whole story. there is also that scripture in moses:

And Enoch also beheld the residue of the people which
were the sons of Adam; and they were a mixture of all the seed of Adam save it was the seed of Cain, for the seed of Cain were black, and had not place among them. - Book of Moses 7:22

Again, that doesn’t specifically identify the present day Africans unless you want to interpret it that way. They can finesse all of this easily.

 

[majick275]

Again, that doesn’t specifically identify the present day Africans unless you want to interpret it that way. They can finesse all of this easily.

only be snipping things out of context. if you take the whole PoGP then you have very scriptural basis. lest anyone try to wiggle too hard you not only have years of sermons by prophets and apostles saying what those scriptures mean but you have first presidency statements that would be the LDS equivalent of Pauls pastoral letters in the NT stating the doctrine.

mormon apologists like to claim “that’s not official” to get around the teachings of previous LDS leaders but then do same thing with their unofficial scenarios to spin the teachings the “modern way”. jefflindsay is a perfect example of this and even hugh nibbley did it all the time.

the problem they have is all of the well documented occasions when brigham young, john taylor, joseph fielding smith, spencer kimball , ezra benson and even gordon hinkley spoke authoritatively on it.

you can’t say you’re the “true church” because you have living prophets who are oracles of the lord on hand and then say they were mistaken because they didn’t understand what god meant on the other.

 

[BartBurk]

only be snipping things out of context. if you take the whole PoGP then you have very scriptural basis. lest anyone try to wiggle too hard you not only have years of sermons by prophets and apostles saying what those scriptures mean but you have first presidency statements that would be the LDS equivalent of Pauls pastoral letters in the NT stating the doctrine.

mormon apologists like to claim “that’s not official” to get around the teachings of previous LDS leaders but then do same thing with their unofficial scenarios to spin the teachings the “modern way”. jefflindsay is a perfect example of this and even hugh nibbley did it all the time.

the problem they have is all of the well documented occasions when brigham young, john taylor, joseph fielding smith, spencer kimball , ezra benson and even gordon hinkley spoke authoritatively on it.

you can’t say you’re the “true church” because you have living prophets who are oracles of the lord on hand and then say they were mistaken because they didn’t understand what god meant on the other.

I agree that it’s a problem that Mormons have to deal with. I’m glad I don’t have to deal with it anymore. I just refuse to continue to call present day Mormons racists because of the doctrines of those 19th century prophets – especially when many of these ideas can’t be traced to Joseph Smith who authored the scriptures in question. In early Mormonism there was real tension between one side that was anti-slavery and another side that wasn’t. Add to that mix an antagonism towards the Federal Government right before the Civil 'War started and it is easy to see where some of those early attitudes came from. What I get tired of is hearing modern day Mormons called racist because of beliefs of 19th century Mormons especially when it is mainly done to discredit Mormons now like we saw during the Mitt Romney run. Any notion that modern day Mormons are any more racist than anyone else is ridiculous.

 

[majick275]

I agree that it’s a problem that Mormons have to deal with. I’m glad I don’t have to deal with it anymore. I just refuse to continue to call present day Mormons racists because of the doctrines of those 19th century prophets – especially when many of these ideas can’t be traced to Joseph Smith who authored the scriptures in question. In early Mormonism there was real tension between one side that was anti-slavery and another side that wasn’t. Add to that mix an antagonism towards the Federal Government right before the Civil 'War started and it is easy to see where some of those early attitudes came from. What I get tired of is hearing modern day Mormons called racist because of beliefs of 19th century Mormons especially when it is mainly done to discredit Mormons now like we saw during the Mitt Romney run. Any notion that modern day Mormons are any more racist than anyone else is ridiculous.

i still disagree with your conclusion. i see a definite arrogance of white American mormons still today. there isn’t the blatant condescension towards the “lamanites” that you got in the past and obviously the very visible ban on blacks and the priesthood is gone. but notice the demographics of mormon leadership at all levels. if there is a white american (preferably morg corridor type) available they will most likely be in charge. there is a still a sense of entitlement that i notice that is very similar to the sanhedrin in jesus time who felt because they had abraham for a father they were good to go. maybe it’s because i see mormonism through the lens of the 60’s and 70’s but i still saw this in modern wards today when i left for good.

 

[MelanieAnne]

i still disagree with your conclusion. i see a definite arrogance of white American mormons still today. there isn’t the blatant condescension towards the “lamanites” that you got in the past and obviously the very visible ban on blacks and the priesthood is gone. but notice the demographics of mormon leadership at all levels. if there is a white american (preferably morg corridor type) available they will most likely be in charge. there is a still a sense of entitlement that i notice that is very similar to the sanhedrin in jesus time who felt because they had abraham for a father they were good to go. maybe it’s because i see mormonism through the lens of the 60’s and 70’s but i still saw this in modern wards today when i left for good.

Majick, I think that, just as you see elsewhere in society, there are still racists, either closet racists or even a few out in the open, in the Mormon church. The difference is that most other churches don’t have institutionalized racism as part of their history.

I have attended a Mormon meeting with one of my friends where the teacher taught that marriage between blacks and whites was forbidden by God. This wasn’t decades ago, this was within the recent past. Now, this may not be “Mormon Doctrine” but it certainly was the “truth” as that teacher understood it and they had scriptures to back it up. So it’s still “out there” but it’s not as evident as perhaps it once was.

 

[SedesDomi]

The difference is that most other churches don’t have institutionalized racism as part of their history.

Huh??? You haven’t been down South, lately.

I have attended a Mormon meeting with one of my friends where the teacher taught that marriage between blacks and whites was forbidden by God. This wasn’t decades ago, this was within the recent past.

Recent past? As in the year 2000? Come down South, sometime.

 

[BartBurk]

Majick, I think that, just as you see elsewhere in society, there are still racists, either closet racists or even a few out in the open, in the Mormon church. The difference is that most other churches don’t have institutionalized racism as part of their history.

I have attended a Mormon meeting with one of my friends where the teacher taught that marriage between blacks and whites was forbidden by God. This wasn’t decades ago, this was within the recent past. Now, this may not be “Mormon Doctrine” but it certainly was the “truth” as that teacher understood it and they had scriptures to back it up. So it’s still “out there” but it’s not as evident as perhaps it once was.

Of course that ignores the fact that one of the white stake high councilmen in the South Bend Stake is married to a black woman. He also served as Bishop for several years in the South Bend Ward. There is no official policy that forbids interracial marriage and there are several Mormon interracial couples (black married to white) in the local stake. This is another issue that will melt away with time as some of the older folks pass on. If somebody is teaching that blacks can’t marry whites it is their own opinion. As I understand it, the choice of a Bishop has to be approved by Salt Lake City so Salt Lake City is not taking a stand against white people married to black people.

The idea that Mormons as a rule are more racist than people in other religions (including our own Catholic Church) simply doesn’t wash with my experience of Mormonism. It’s not surprising that Hillary Clinton started getting the white Catholic ethnic vote in these large states.

 

[majick275]

Of course that ignores the fact that one of the white stake high councilmen in the South Bend Stake is married to a black woman. He also served as Bishop for several years in the South Bend Ward. There is no official policy that forbids interracial marriage and there are several Mormon interracial couples (black married to white) in the local stake. This is another issue that will melt away with time as some of the older folks pass on. If somebody is teaching that blacks can’t marry whites it is their own opinion. As I understand it, the choice of a Bishop has to be approved by Salt Lake City so Salt Lake City is not taking a stand against white people married to black people.

The idea that Mormons as a rule are more racist than people in other religions (including our own Catholic Church) simply doesn’t wash with my experience of Mormonism. It’s not surprising that Hillary Clinton started getting the white Catholic ethnic vote in these large states.

if in your example the individual was black man married to a white woman i think you would have a different person on the HC. i agree that over time mormons will become more accepting of interracial marriages. however right now there are still directives from the first presidency that discourage this. they all say it isn’t forbidden but that it’s something they recommend against. there still scriptures and doctrines that are racist as well. i do not discount your experience with mormons that you believe are past these issues. i am glad for them. my experience has been somewhat different. the mormons i have seen were not KKK types and they didn’t go around making racial slurs or oppress people. they did think they were superior in Gods eyes because of their race. they believe that it is direct evidence that they were great people in the pre-existence. they believe that being born white american and LDS meant that they were heroes in the war in heaven and entitled to special privileges. that is the racism that i still see in the LDS church today

 

[Jerusha]

Agreed, majik. They have a hierarchial system

LDS Royalty

Multi-generational LDS
White LDS
Native and Asian LDS

Black LDS

White non-LDS

Native and Asian non-LDS

Black non-LDS

Non-LDS with anti-Mormon geneaology

Almost as complex as the caste system of India.

I always wondered why I had to be “better than” in order to be “equal to”, but, even then, no matter how I tried, I could never meet their expectations. Because that was a violation of their “religious rights”, because they believed that they were BORN “better than”

If a person of color converts to LDS, then that, to some extent, takes away the stigma of color. Nice way of overcoming racism, joining with the racists.

 

[distracted]

Noah did not give the priesthood to his youngest son Ham because he married outside of the tribe. That was forbidden at that time. Ham tried to steal the priesthood from his father before he left. Ham ended up establishing eygpt and practicing a false priesthood anyways.

It is not the same thing… God hates false beliefs… he does NOT hate human beings, particularly for the absurd reason that htye are a differnet skin color… Ridiculous… He is the one who created them with that skin color… are you a Mormon??

Christ at one point did not teach the Gentiles. Sounds more biblical then anything else.

and for whatever reasons… those reasons were not because of something like skin color… it had to do with beliefs…
Racism is the most ignorant, arrogant bunch of … whatever that “man” ever invented… It is arrogant to think of one’s own race, something he/she had no control over… as being better than that of another… arrogant and…

what’s the word? Neanderthal…

 

[distracted]

Mormonism is the most ridiculous religion out there. And yes, originally Mormons were racist, unlike the Catholic Church which has been ordaining people of other races since the beginning.

Amen… i was just going to say this… There was a Black pope in (i think) the 3rd centruy, one in the 7th (i think)… Anyway, there have been several…

 

[ralphinal]

Amen… i was just going to say this… There was a Black pope in (i think) the 3rd centruy, one in the 7th (i think)… Anyway, there have been several…

Don’t forget the current Cardinal Arzine. There are some who thought he might have been pope. He may still.

He’s great.

There are aslo black Catholic saints. We have a better than most record on this topic.

 

[distracted]

they believe that being born white american and LDS meant that they were heroes in the war in heaven and entitled to special privileges. that is the racism that i still see in the LDS church today

these kinds of ridiculous beliefs stem from that great source of falsehood, Martin Luther… He is the one who blashphemed the Church , a Church that has taught and fought against false beliefs… such as the ones we encounter in these weird cults… throughout the centuries…

what i am saying is that once you go against Christ Himself… (the Church is Christ)… you are going to enter into darkness… I think there is something in Scirpture that speaks of how “their foolish hearts were darkened…” Without objective truth, the mind becomes… very un-godly… illogical… and evil… objectively speaking…

 

[distracted]

Don’t forget the current Cardinal Arzine. There are some who thought he might have been pope. He may still.

He’s great.

There are aslo black Catholic saints. We have a better than most record on this topic.

thanks for giving the name… I have been meaning to get more info on him… How much do you know about him??

 

[PaulDupre]

Here you go:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Arinze

and

catholic-hierarchy.org/bishop/barinze.html

 

[ralphinal]

thanks for giving the name… I have been meaning to get more info on him… How much do you know about him??

My favorite quote was one that he made on EWTN once. He was asked about litergical abuses. He responded that he had never, ever witnessed one, even the smallest one. Asked how could this be, he responded that “When the Cardinal comes, even the worst offender treats mass like it is St. Peters.”

He is great