Mormons: was the LDS Church treated fairly in the PBS special?

[cor]

Hi GIMJ ~ Meaning no disrespect, but I find this odd. How can you be an active Mormon and a practicing Catholic? Is it fair to say that the Mormon church is merely a social club for you? If not, what is it? It does not appear to be a religion for you.

And when you say (in a later post) that you are on the path to becoming a full Catholic, which will, for you, most likely involve Baptism (since the RCC doesn’t accept Mormon baptism) and subsequent Confirmation, I just have to ask ~

1. Will you continue to be an “active Mormon” ~ however you regard that ~ after you are Confirmed as a Catholic? and
2. Regardless of your answer to #1, will you, either before, or upon your Confirmation as a Catholic, remove your name from the records of the LDS church? If not, why not?
3. Last, have you discussed this dual-practice with a Catholic priest (or for that matter, with a Mormon bishop)? If so, what was the result? If you did have such a discussion, did the Catholic priest think your remaining an “active Mormon” was a good idea? Did you ask him about removing/leaving your name from the records of the LDS church? If so, what did he recommend? And if you had no such discussion, why not?

Living in Southern California, I have a lot of friends who are Mormon. When asked, I am happy to help them with various activities, because they ask, and because they find my skills helpful, and I am happy to help. But that’s the end of it, I don’t go to church with them. I don’t understand how someone can be a Mormon and a Catholic at the same time since, as you well know, they have fundamentally different belief systems.

Melanie

The Catholic Church used to have rather strict directives I guess you might call them on attending non-Catholic religious services. I believe you could only attend for special occasions such as marriages and funerals. But today it’s no longer considered verboten to attend non-Catholic religious services. That doesn’t mean it’s necessarily wise to (for example, if it’s a danger to your faith or might weaken it then it may be best to avoid it). Here’s something from Jimmy Akin on a slightly different topic that may be applicable:

jimmyakin.typepad.com/defensor_fidei/2005/08/attending_nonca.html

*You are correct that, as a Catholic, you could not receive communion in your current church since Protestant churches (unfortunately) did not retain a sacramental priesthood and therefore, apart from very exceptional circumstances, do not have the Real Presence when they celebrate the Lord’s Supper. Canon law does not allow Catholics to receive communion in these circumstances (CIC 846 §2).

Present canon law does not, however, prohibit Catholics from attending non-Catholic services. Therefore, you would be able to continue to attend Protestant services with your wife and family as long as doing so does not pose a problem for your Catholic faith.

You would have the obligations other Catholics do, such as the duty to attend Mass. In some mixed-marriage families this is solved by attending Mass on Saturday evening and then going to Protestant services on Sunday morning, or the reverse, or by going to both services on Sundays (e.g., a morning service at once church and an evening service at the other). In some cases, both spouses go to both services.*

I see no harm in GIMJ’s retaining his social ties to the LDS Church, but I’m not a practicing Catholic (I’m struggling with some doctrines). Your suggestion of talking to a priest about it sounds like a good idea.

 

[christianley]

Hi GIMJ ~ Meaning no disrespect, but I find this odd. How can you be an active Mormon and a practicing Catholic? Is it fair to say that the Mormon church is merely a social club for you? If not, what is it? It does not appear to be a religion for you.

And when you say (in a later post) that you are on the path to becoming a full Catholic, which will, for you, most likely involve Baptism (since the RCC doesn’t accept Mormon baptism) and subsequent Confirmation, I just have to ask ~

1. Will you continue to be an “active Mormon” ~ however you regard that ~ after you are Confirmed as a Catholic? and
2. Regardless of your answer to #1, will you, either before, or upon your Confirmation as a Catholic, remove your name from the records of the LDS church? If not, why not?
3. Last, have you discussed this dual-practice with a Catholic priest (or for that matter, with a Mormon bishop)? If so, what was the result? If you did have such a discussion, did the Catholic priest think your remaining an “active Mormon” was a good idea? Did you ask him about removing/leaving your name from the records of the LDS church? If so, what did he recommend? And if you had no such discussion, why not?

Living in Southern California, I have a lot of friends who are Mormon. When asked, I am happy to help them with various activities, because they ask, and because they find my skills helpful, and I am happy to help. But that’s the end of it, I don’t go to church with them. I don’t understand how someone can be a Mormon and a Catholic at the same time since, as you well know, they have fundamentally different belief systems.

Melanie

I joined the Catholic Church a year ago. My wife and the rest of my family remain active Mormon. I still attend sacrament meeting with them, but don’t take the sacrament or vote or do anything else. I have not officially gone through the process to remove my name from church records. My wife is a cradle Catholic. She never did anything official to get her names off of Catholic records. If the local Mormon Bishop decides to do it, he can excommunicate me for becoming Catholic now that they have changed their rules on that. Even then I would still continue to attend with my family as long as they thought it necessary to attend. I’ve encouraged my wife to come to the Catholic Church, but her answer is simply, “Don’t even go there.” My parish priest knows I still attend the LDS sacrament meeting with my family. I skip the rest of the LDS meetings so I can go to mass.

Senator Brownback became Catholic, but I have read an article which states he still attends church with his Protestant family as well. “Mixed” marriages are always difficult.

 

[GIMJ]

The Community of Christ could end up being similar to the Worldwide Church of God in becoming mainline Protestant and just disappearing into the mix. As you pointed out earlier, their numbers are falling fast, just like the WWCG was after the successor to Herbert Armstrong turned it mainstream.

It’s interesting that you should bring up the Worldwide Church of God. A Christian ministry produced a video a few years ago comparing Mormonism to that church. It was actually pretty good.

lhvm.org/wcg.htm

We had a guy here a couple of months ago who gave a lot of info on the the Community of Christ, saying that they have a lot of evidence that Joseph Smith never taught or favored polygamy, but that polyamy was something that came up from his followers, and that he tried fruitlessly to stop it.

The Community of Christ can’t prove that Joseph Smith was not a polygamist. They don’t even try now. The facts are indisputable. We have marriage records for Smith to over 30 women. Anecdotal evidence is not difficult to come by.

Yeah…and we know how hard Joseph Smith tried to stop polygamy: "Look fellas, I’ve tried it–I’ve married over 30 women, many of them your wives or teenage daughters–polygamy’s just not all it’s built up to be!"

 

[GIMJ]

1. Will you continue to be an “active Mormon” ~ however you regard that ~ after you are Confirmed as a Catholic? and

My inclination is to say no, but that may not be for a while.

1. Regardless of your answer to #1, will you, either before, or upon your Confirmation as a Catholic, remove your name from the records of the LDS church? If not, why not?

I’m still debating this. I was actually going to talk to my priest about this. If he recommends or requires it, then of course I’ll take his advice. If he doesn’t, then I probably won’t.

The reason I’m not in any rush to get my “name removed” is primarily because I don’t believe that the LDS Church actually removes anyone’s name. The membership numbers of the Church are so grossly exaggerated as it is. About 20-25 years ago, the Church started counting members twice in order to boost their records. They also never remove members from their records who leave the Church but never go through an official excommunication or resignation process. Additionally, having been witness to these processes on several occasions, I know that the excommunicate person’s records are maintained. Finally, I have reason to believe that members who are excommunicated or leave the church are only rebaptized and given temple ordinances once they’re dead. So to me it seems fruitless.

1. Last, have you discussed this dual-practice with a Catholic priest (or for that matter, with a Mormon bishop)? If so, what was the result? If you did have such a discussion, did the Catholic priest think your remaining an “active Mormon” was a good idea? Did you ask him about removing/leaving your name from the records of the LDS church? If so, what did he recommend? And if you had no such discussion, why not?

No, I have not talked about “dual-practicing” the religions. As it is, I only practice the one, and that’s Catholicism. Being “active” in the Mormon Church does not mean that you are necessarily actively practicing the religion.

 

[GIMJ]

But today it’s no longer considered verboten to attend non-Catholic religious services. That doesn’t mean it’s necessarily wise to (for example, if it’s a danger to your faith or might weaken it then it may be best to avoid it).

That’s ironic, because every time I go to a Mormon church, it reinforces my committment to leaving it behind.

*You are correct that, as a Catholic, you could not receive communion in your current church since Protestant churches (unfortunately) did not retain a sacramental priesthood and therefore, apart from very exceptional circumstances, do not have the Real Presence when they celebrate the Lord’s Supper. Canon law does not allow Catholics to receive communion in these circumstances (CIC 846 §2).
*

I’m not baptized or confirmed yet, so I can’t take the eucharist anyway. It’s been several years since I took “the sacrament” in a Mormon service, also. The bread is usually okay, but the water comes out of the tap and has a strange odor and aftertaste.

 

[GIMJ]

My parish priest knows I still attend the LDS sacrament meeting with my family. I skip the rest of the LDS meetings so I can go to mass.

This is what I do most weeks.

 

[christianley]

That’s ironic, because every time I go to a Mormon church, it reinforces my committment to leaving it behind.

Exactly. Once your eyes have been opened to Mormonism it’s pretty difficult to desire to return to it. The history and doctrine are simply too crazy to return to it.

 

[christianley]

It’s interesting that you should bring up the Worldwide Church of God. A Christian ministry produced a video a few years ago comparing Mormonism to that church. It was actually pretty good.

lhvm.org/wcg.htm

I watched the video – it’s quite a story, but it seems they have a flawed Protestant understanding of grace rather than understanding the importance of the sacraments in grace. But they’ve moved forward for the better.

 

[Allweather]

I watched the video – it’s quite a story, but it seems they have a flawed Protestant understanding of grace rather than understanding the importance of the sacraments in grace. But they’ve moved forward for the better.

We watched it a couple of weeks ago… it was very interesting to the fiance, who saw many similarities to the Mormon church she has come out of. Especially with Herbert Armstrong proclaiming himself to be The Prophet and all. It is unfortunate that most of the ones who left the WWCG became some sort of Protestant. It seemed to me that they jumped out of the fire and back into the frying pan, which is better than the fire, but not by much.

 

[CCM08]

The Mormon position is always going to be anything that does not actively promote Mormonism is “anti-Mormon.”
As for the CoC, it’s just Emma Smith’s attempt to radically reinvent her “husband” postmortum. Historically the notion that Smith wasn’t a polygmyist is silly. But then again if people can honestly bring themselves to believe the Nazis did nothing wrong in the KZ camps I suppose believing Smith was anti-polygamy isn’t all that far fetched. On the other hand, before going fairly liberal, the CoC is a much more accurate representation of the early Mormon church than any other Mormon related group. Fundamentalist Mormons would best represent Joseph Smith’s vision of the Mormon church at the time of his death.

 

[rmcmullan]

I’m Mormon and I saw most of the PBS special. I missed the first hour becuase it was on the same time as 24 and Heroes and the DVR will only record two programs at a time!

First off, I think they did pretty well knowing how potentially inflammatory this subject could be to both supporters and detracters. Mormons are like anchovies on the pizza, most people have a strong opinion regarding the matter. I didn’t see anything in the portions I watched that seemed either biased or incorrect. So kudos for that. The only criticism I have for it was that it was so factual that it was kinda boring. Maybe that speaks well of its fairness. My (devoutly Mormon) wife pretty much felt the same.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

I’m Mormon and I saw most of the PBS special. I missed the first hour becuase it was on the same time as 24 and Heroes and the DVR will only record two programs at a time!

ONLY two at a time…

Mormons are like anchovies on the pizza, most people have a strong opinion regarding the matter.

I have to remember that one.

 

[MelanieAnne]

My inclination is to say no, but that may not be for a while.

I’m still debating this. I was actually going to talk to my priest about this. If he recommends or requires it, then of course I’ll take his advice. If he doesn’t, then I probably won’t.

The reason I’m not in any rush to get my “name removed” is primarily because I don’t believe that the LDS Church actually removes anyone’s name. The membership numbers of the Church are so grossly exaggerated as it is. About 20-25 years ago, the Church started counting members twice in order to boost their records. They also never remove members from their records who leave the Church but never go through an official excommunication or resignation process. Additionally, having been witness to these processes on several occasions, I know that the excommunicate person’s records are maintained. Finally, I have reason to believe that members who are excommunicated or leave the church are only rebaptized and given temple ordinances once they’re dead. So to me it seems fruitless.

This is still an interesting question for me, well actually for one of my good friends. One of my (now in the past) RCIA buddies is still struggling with this question. She was a Mormon, now she’s Catholic. Her entire family is Mormon. Her future husband is Catholic. She came into the Catholic church entirely of her own volition and was absolutely one of the most faithful members of our RCIA group.

Even now, after all this time, she is similarly conflicted as to removing her name from the records of the LDS church. On one hand, she feels that she is practicing her Catholic religion appropriately, but at the same time she doesn’t want to offend family members by taking her name off the LDS records, regardless of whatever real value that represents. And yet, she does not want her name connected to a religion that she does not support.

She is hesitant to ask a Priest for guidance. It would be good to know what is right. I told her I would ask in this forum, so it would be welcome to find an answer here. If someone has an answer, it would be welcome.

Love, Melanie

 

[rmcmullan]

On the question regarding whether or not to ask to have your name removed:

This is a difficult matter but consider the promises you made when you were baptised into the church and are repeated during the sacrament prayer:

O God, the Eternal Father, we ask thee in the name of thy Son, Jesus Christ, to bless and sanctify this bread to the souls of all those who partake of it, that they may eat in remembrance of the body of thy Son, and witness unto thee, O God, the Eternal Father, that they are willing to take upon them the name of thy Son, and always remember him and keep his commandments which he has given them; that they may always have his Spirit to be with them. Amen.

If you feel you are still keeping them by changing churches, you should leave your name on. Of course, your home teachers might come around to pester you every month (maybe!) but it’s not always between you and the earthly church, it’s between you and your Creator. Make it a matter of conscience. I think there’s room in there to go either way.

 

[majick275]

I’m going to take the hard line stance on this one. If you are sure you are Catholic then go through RCIA, receive the sacraments and have your name removed from the LDS church as an act of faith that the Catholic church is right. If you are unsure then go through RCIA and continue your search for truth until you are sure even if you repeat RCIA a few times or spend years in study and prayer. I can see someone in that event keeping their name on the LDS records because they’re not sure what the truth is. I don’t think though that you are doing right by actually coming into full communion with the church, especially receiving christ at mass and still maintaining LDS membership “just in case” or so as not to “offend”. At some point you have to decide. Christ spoke a warning about the lukewarm. It’s okay to take what time and path you need to FIND the truth. Just don’t try to have it both ways.

 

[rmcmullan]

I know you guys are going to freak out at my logic here but I was baptised Catholic and am now Mormon. I consider myself a good Catholic because I am a good Mormon. If you can consider yourself a good Mormon by being a good Catholic, you’re okay.

Let the freaking out begin…

 

[Allweather]

I know you guys are going to freak out at my logic here but I was baptised Catholic and am now Mormon. I consider myself a good Catholic because I am a good Mormon. If you can consider yourself a good Mormon by being a good Catholic, you’re okay.

Let the freaking out begin…

The only way you could be good both, is to be ignorant of the details, either deliberately or not. There’s more to being a Christian than that, although it does seem true that the most important qualities of both religions can be satisfied simultaneously, such as loving our fellow men, and being generous to the needy.

But there’s more to it, and if you think you can be both Mormon AND Catholic, and be thoroughly true to both religions, you are not following the teachings of either.

As for having a name removed from the LDS rolls, this is an issue with my fiance. My own feeling is that she should have it removed. She hasn’t yet made a move in this direction, because she’s afraid that her name will be dragged through the mud in the local congregation. She has heard stories of this being done to others who made a public show of withdrawal. Rumors of adultery and other mortal sins were begun. She’s not saying this is done as a matter of official church policy. Most likely it is just human nature, and would happen in any congregation. But much of her immediate family is still Mormon, and she doesn’t want to have this affect them in any way.

 

[christianley]

The only way you could be good both, is to be ignorant of the details, either deliberately or not. There’s more to being a Christian than that, although it does seem true that the most important qualities of both religions can be satisfied simultaneously, such as loving our fellow men, and being generous to the needy.

But there’s more to it, and if you think you can be both Mormon AND Catholic, and be thoroughly true to both religions, you are not following the teachings of either.

As for having a name removed from the LDS rolls, this is an issue with my fiance. My own feeling is that she should have it removed. She hasn’t yet made a move in this direction, because she’s afraid that her name will be dragged through the mud in the local congregation. She has heard stories of this being done to others who made a public show of withdrawal. Rumors of adultery and other mortal sins were begun. She’s not saying this is done as a matter of official church policy. Most likely it is just human nature, and would happen in any congregation. But much of her immediate family is still Mormon, and she doesn’t want to have this affect them in any way.

Name removal is usually done privately. If she joins the Catholic Church she could be excommunicated from the LDS Church under the new rules which allow people to be ex’d for joining another church. That would involve having her name dragged through the mud. If she wants privacy she should request name removal.

Here’s how:

mormonnomore.com/

 

[rmcmullan]

Christianley, both are done privately and I would expect that even close family members would not be told. Things can go wrong but in all the publicized cases I’ve heard of, all church leaders refused to comment on any details. You guys are familiar with the sanctity of the confession booth.

 

[majick275]

ditto. properly done name removal is reasonably private and removes one form the whole system of "ecclesiastical authority: with the LDS. as long as you choose to maintain your membership you are acknowledging their authority in regards to LDS membership. They can make notes on your records for successive leaders to read, they can discuss you in any number of meetings (welfare committee, bishopric, ward council, missionary, etc.) they can (and usually do) assign home teachers and visiting teachers. They can hold a church court and “discipline” you. Plus there is a sense of “fairness” in my mind. (speaking as a former LDS priesthood leader). Knowing the LDS system and the amount of resources that are supposed to be assigned to each person, I think it a bit unfair to leave them with all that administrative overhead on your behalf if you don’t want ot be a member of their church.