Mormons: What are the consquences of Original Sin?

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This subject has been brought up in past threads, but more as a sideline issue. I would like to learn the Mormon perspective on original sin, its effects on the human race, and its role in our need for salvation.

As a Catholic, I believe its effects on the world can be seen every day in the news and in my life personally and therefore its reality is really a self-evident truth.

While everyone is invited to comment, the Mormon take on this would be most appreciated. Thanks.
 
This subject has been brought up in past threads, but more as a sideline issue. I would like to learn the Mormon perspective on original sin, its effects on the human race, and its role in our need for salvation.

As a Catholic, I believe its effects on the world can be seen every day in the news and in my life personally and therefore its reality is really a self-evident truth.

While everyone is invited to comment, the Mormon take on this would be most appreciated. Thanks.
Perhaps this may help:
lds.org/study/topics/fall-of-adam?lang=eng&query=effects+fall
Our Fallen Condition
As descendants of Adam and Eve, we inherit a fallen condition during mortality (see Alma 42:5-9, 14). We are separated from the presence of the Lord and subject to physical death. We are also placed in a state of opposition, in which we are tested by the difficulties of life and the temptations of the adversary (see 2 Nephi 2:11-14; D&C 29:39; Moses 6:48-49).
In this fallen condition, we have a conflict within us. We are spirit children of God, with the potential to be “partakers of the divine nature” (2 Peter 1:4). However, “we are unworthy before [God]; because of the fall our natures have become evil continually” (Ether 3:2). We need to strive continually to overcome unrighteous passions and desires.
Repeating the words of an angel, King Benjamin said, “The natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam.” King Benjamin warned that in this natural, or fallen, state, each person will be an enemy to God forever “unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father” (Mosiah 3:19).
 
Wow! Unless I am missing something, this sounds very Catholic. 🙂

As far as the “fall” is concerned, the origin of sin, do you believe this was something that had to happen, or could our first parents have rejected the temptation of the serpent and kept their trust in God, sparing all of us a lot of trouble?

I ask this because in some thread, awhile back, I believe that it was said that basically Adam had no choice but to disobey God by eating of the fruit due to his obligation to another commandment to remain with Eve and to be fruitful and multiply. My argument was that God would never cause one of us to sin; that it is actually impossible for God to put us into that postion.

I’d appreciate your comments. Thanks.
 
Wow! Unless I am missing something, this sounds very Catholic. 🙂

As far as the “fall” is concerned, the origin of sin, do you believe this was something that had to happen, or could our first parents have rejected the temptation of the serpent and kept their trust in God, sparing all of us a lot of trouble?

I ask this because in some thread, awhile back, I believe that it was said that basically Adam had no choice but to disobey God by eating of the fruit due to his obligation to another commandment to remain with Eve and to be fruitful and multiply. My argument was that God would never cause one of us to sin; that it is actually impossible for God to put us into that postion.

I’d appreciate your comments. Thanks.
I believe the fall was part of the plan. As it states in 1 Peter 1:18-20, Jesus was foreordained from before the foundation of the world to be a sacrifice for sin. Why would this be if it was not part of the plan?
The one thing that had to happen, was that the fall had to come by a choice, not by a command from God.
When placed in the garden, Adam and Eve had 2 commandments: Be fruitful and multiply, and Do not eat of the tree of knowledge.
We believe they could not have children in their paradisical state in the Garden. We do not know how long they were in the Garden but for whatever reason they had no children while there.
We believe they were waiting for more knowledge on what to do next.
Satan tempted Eve through the serpent, and she realized they needed more knowledge and thought one way was to eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge as tempted. This was Eve’s choice.
After eating, she went to get Adam to eat of the fruit too.
Adam’s choice was to either remain in the Garden alone, because he knew Eve would be cast out, or stay with his wife that God had given him and commanded to be fruitful and multiply with.
Could Adam have made a diffrent choice? sure. What would be different?, I guess we will never know because he made the choice that he did.

There is a purpose for this mortality, it is a blessing and a curse. A curse, because of the sorrow, pain and temptation we experience here, but a blessing because it refines us an allows us to grow through the opposition that was introduce. Without opposition, there was realy no choices to be made. Without learning how to choose the right in the face of opposition, how can we learn to be good or righteous
The one thing that God states as a result of the fall is that man has become as one of us (God), to know good from evil.
Now that we can know good from evil, we need to choose between the two. Our choices make us the person we will be, in this life and the next.
 
I believe the fall was part of the plan. As it states in 1 Peter 1:18-20, Jesus was foreordained from before the foundation of the world to be a sacrifice for sin. Why would this be if it was not part of the plan?
God lives in eternity, a state of being that exists outside of time and space. All of history unfolds at once before God’s eyes. He is omniscient. Yes, God knew that we would fall into sin and out of His great love for us, He also knew, “from before the foundation of the world” that He Himself would come to save us from our sins. But this is quite different from the view that God planned the fall. He gave us free will in order that we might choose to love Him. We were made in His image and likeness. We were created to love. That was His plan. We rebelled against His plan for us.
The one thing that had to happen, was that the fall had to come by a choice, not by a command from God. When placed in the garden, Adam and Eve had 2 commandments: Be fruitful and multiply, and Do not eat of the tree of knowledge. We believe they could not have children in their paradisical state in the Garden. We do not know how long they were in the Garden but for whatever reason they had no children while there. We believe they were waiting for more knowledge on what to do next. Satan tempted Eve through the serpent, and she realized they needed more knowledge and thought one way was to eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge as tempted. This was Eve’s choice.
This all sounds rather innocent. You presuppose that Adam and Eve were created less than complete, that they lacked knowledge and that their sin was really just an attempt to acquire more knowledge. Eve found a way to do this and so who could really blame her?

I would disagree. There was much more to their disobedience than a thirst for knowledge. Remember, they had been created in the image and likeness of God and therefore lacked nothing. They did not suffer from a weakening of the will and a dimming of the intellect as they would later. They lived in the Garden and walked with God. They knew goodness and beauty and shared a familial relationship with God. Then the serpent came into the scene. He asked Eve “Did God say ‘You shall not eat of any tree of the garden?’” (Gn 2:17). The serpent certainly knew what God had said, but wanted to place doubt into their hearts. If they could eat of any tree, why were they prohibited from eating of this tree? God told them that if they ate of it they would "surely die. Was God holding out on them? After placing doubt in their hearts, the serpent then goes in for the kill: “You will not die. For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.” (Gn 3:4-5) They now loose all trust in their Creator. He was a tyrant that wanted to keep them down and not allow them to be like Him. They would know everything and be as powerful as God. And so Eve rebelled and Adam followed her, knowingly disobeying God. They chose to believe the serpent rather than trust in their loving Father.
After eating, she went to get Adam to eat of the fruit too.
Adam’s choice was to either remain in the Garden alone, because he knew Eve would be cast out, or stay with his wife that God had given him and commanded to be fruitful and multiply with. Could Adam have made a diffrent choice? sure. What would be different?, I guess we will never know because he made the choice that he did.
The scenario above requires God to participate in sin by causing Adam to sin. It proposes two choices for Adam; 1) Do not eat of the fruit and thereby disobey God’s command to remain with Eve and be fruitful and multiply, or 2) Eat of the fruit and thereby disobey God’s command not to eat of it. It eliminates the option to remain faithful to God.
Adam did nothing to stop Eve from eating. He did not try to convince her to trust in their loving Father. He bought into the serpent’s lie just as Eve had done. God does not and cannot cause one to sin. No, Adam desired exactly what Eve desired, and that was to become like God. The sad part is that they were already “like God” as they had been created in His image and likeness. Having known “goodness”, they would indeed, now know evil also. But they were not created for that purpose. They were created to love and serve their Creator and therein experience complete freedom.
There is a purpose for this mortality, it is a blessing and a curse. A curse, because of the sorrow, pain and temptation we experience here, but a blessing because it refines us an allows us to grow through the opposition that was introduce. Without opposition, there was realy no choices to be made. Without learning how to choose the right in the face of opposition, how can we learn to be good or righteous
The one thing that God states as a result of the fall is that man has become as one of us (God), to know good from evil. Now that we can know good from evil, we need to choose between the two. Our choices make us the person we will be, in this life and the next.
There is only a blessing in that Jesus Christ came to save us, not that we experience evil. Yes, we are now in the position of having to choose between good and evil. Adam and Eve were faced with this same choice, before they sinned. Do we or don’t we. They chose sin, and the doubt that was placed in their hearts is the same doubt that we all carry with us. We rebel, just as they did. It is why we require a Savior. You speak of the fall almost as something good, as if this was God’s desire for us, a necessary evil, if you will. God’s desire for us in the beginning is the same as it is now. He desires that we choose to love Him, nothing more.
 
If you believe He knew we would fall, then He had to plan for it, and thus it was part of the plan.
He did give us free will, and the fall had to come through it.
I don’t know if it was a matter of not knowing how, or not being able…I tend to lean towards not being able to. This involves a belief that it is blood being the imperfection that was introduced to Adam and Eve’s perfectly created bodies, and of course blood is an important factor in having children.

I would disagree. There was much more to their disobedience than a thirst for knowledge. Remember, they had been created in the image and likeness of God and therefore lacked nothing. They did not suffer from a weakening of the will and a dimming of the intellect as they would later. They lived in the Garden and walked with God. They knew goodness and beauty and shared a familial relationship with God.
They knew goodness and beauty, but not evil or opposition. In a sense, they had no free will because there was no choice to be made.
Then the serpent came into the scene. He asked Eve "Did God say 'You shall not eat of any
tree of the garden?’" (Gn 2:17). The serpent certainly knew what God had said, but wanted to place doubt into their hearts. If they could eat of any tree, why were they prohibited from eating of this tree? God told them that if they ate of it they would "surely die. Was God holding out on them? After placing doubt in their hearts, the serpent then goes in for the kill: “You will not die. For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.” (Gn 3:4-5) They now loose all trust in their Creator. He was a tyrant that wanted to keep them down and not allow them to be like Him. They would know everything and be as powerful as God. And so Eve rebelled and Adam followed her, knowingly disobeying God. They chose to believe the serpent rather than trust in their loving Father.Yes, and what was the lie? The lie was “you shall not surely die”.
I do not believe for one minute that they lost all trust in their Creator, or thought that He was a tyrant etc…They simply were not ever placed in a position to make a choice before. I believe they understood that God wanted them to know the difference between good and evil, so Eve made a choice. Adam then made his choice too. I believe they did trust in their creator and knew they had to stay together to follow His plan.
It is evident that they trusted their Creator and were forgiven for their choices in the Garden. Eve gave credit to the Lord for giving them a child. They were taught to perform animal sacrifice from someone, that someone had to be God. This they taught to their children.
The scenario above requires God to participate in sin by causing Adam to sin. It proposes two choices for Adam; 1) Do not eat of the fruit and thereby disobey God’s command to remain with Eve and be fruitful and multiply, or 2) Eat of the fruit and thereby disobey God’s command not to eat of it. It eliminates the option to remain faithful to God.
Adam did nothing to stop Eve from eating. He did not try to convince her to trust in their loving Father. He bought into the serpent’s lie just as Eve had done. God does not and cannot cause one to sin. No, Adam desired exactly what Eve desired, and that was to become like God. The sad part is that they were already “like God” as they had been created in His image and likeness. Having known “goodness”, they would indeed, now know evil also. But they were not created for that purpose. They were created to love and serve their Creator and therein experience complete freedom.
I do not see the scenario requiring God to participate in sin…He did not cause Adam to sin. It is Eve that put the ball in motion that put Adam in a position to choose the lessor of 2 evils. What God set up was perfect and there was no need to disobey.
You say Adam did nothing to stop Eve, takes for granted that Adam and Eve were together when Satan did the tempting. There is nothing that says they were, but all indications were that they were approached separately.
He did not buy into the serpent’s lie, but realized that the plan the Father had required them to stay together.
You say there were already “like” God, but that is not true. They were made in God’s image and likeness, but they did not know good AND evil. It was only after they gained a knowledge of good and evil that God proclaimed: “Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil”
I believe Adam and Eve were placed here for that very reason…to come to know good and evil and learn to choose good. Before the temptation of Satan they had a choice between good, and …well good. Not really a choice. No choice = no free will. God made us with free will, so we absolutely required a choice.
There is only a blessing in that Jesus Christ came to save us, not that we experience evil. Yes, we are now in the position of having to choose between good and evil. Adam and Eve were faced with this same choice, before they sinned. Do we or don’t we. They chose sin, and the doubt that was placed in their hearts is the same doubt that we all carry with us. We rebel, just as they did. It is why we require a Savior. You speak of the fall almost as something good, as if this was God’s desire for us, a necessary evil, if you will. God’s desire for us in the beginning is the same as it is now. He desires that we choose to love Him, nothing more.
Though the fall was brought about by sin, it is the only way we could face opposition, and therefore learn to choose good over evil.
Jesus, of course is a blessing, but we, as individuals, need to learn to become like God, and that is being able to choose good over evil.
 
If you believe He knew we would fall, then He had to plan for it, and thus it was part of the plan. He did give us free will, and the fall had to come through it.
Let me put it this way. He knew because He see all. But it was not His will that we fall. Because He saw that we would, He planned to save us.
I don’t know if it was a matter of not knowing how, or not being able…I tend to lean towards not being able to. This involves a belief that it is blood being the imperfection that was introduced to Adam and Eve’s perfectly created bodies, and of course blood is an important factor in having children.
Ok, this is a new one for me. Are you saying that a perfectly created human body would not contain blood? And that it was at some point introduced into their otherwise perfect bodies and made them imperfect? Where is there any biblical evidence of this?
I believe they understood that God wanted them to know the difference between good and evil, so Eve made a choice. Adam then made his choice too. I believe they did trust in their creator and knew they had to stay together to follow His plan.
So you believe that God wanted them to disobey? It was all a set up? That is what you are saying here. God wanted them to know good and evil and the only way they could obtain this knowledge was by disobeying him. Therefore, God was complicit in their sin. There is no other way to read this, Parker.
I do not see the scenario requiring God to participate in sin…He did not cause Adam to sin.
In your scenario, Adam had two choices. Either choice would require disobeying one of God’s commands. It was God who gave the two commands. How was God not complicit in Adam’s sin if what you are saying is correct?
You say Adam did nothing to stop Eve, takes for granted that Adam and Eve were together when Satan did the tempting. There is nothing that says they were, but all indications were that they were approached separately.
"The woman saw that the tree was good for food, pleasing to the eyes, and desirable for gaining wisdom. So she took some of the fruit and ate it; and she also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it." (Gn 3:6)

He was there with her when she made the decision to go ahead and disobey God. He made no objection.
He did not buy into the serpent’s lie, but realized that the plan the Father had required them to stay together.
What you are saying is the Father required Adam to sin, to eat of the fruit, in order to stay together.
You say there were already “like” God, but that is not true. They were made in God’s image and likeness, but they did not know good AND evil. It was only after they gained a knowledge of good and evil that God proclaimed: “Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil”
Only in the sense that God certainly knew evil. But knowing evil is not a requirement of the happiness found in having a relationship with God and evil has no place in the kingdom of God. He did not want his children to have to experience evil. Lets look at what Adam and Eve actually acquired by eating of the fruit.

"Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized that they were naked." (Gn:3:7)

The wisdom they acquired was a good dose of shame.
I believe Adam and Eve were placed here for that very reason…to come to know good and evil and learn to choose good. Before the temptation of Satan they had a choice between good, and …well good. Not really a choice. No choice = no free will. God made us with free will, so we absolutely required a choice

Though the fall was brought about by sin, it is the only way we could face opposition, and therefore learn to choose good over evil. Jesus, of course is a blessing, but we, as individuals, need to learn to become like God, and that is being able to choose good over evil.
They obviously had the choice before they sinned or they could not have chosen to sin in the first place. I would agree that they did not have the tendancy to sin as that was a consequence of the fall, something we must grapple with every day of our lives. Again, you speak of this as if the temptation of the serpent was a good thing, a necessary part of our development.
 
Let me put it this way. He knew because He see all. But it was not His will that we fall. Because He saw that we would, He planned to save us.
Here is where things are a little fuzzy for me on this line of thinking. If it was not His will for us to fall, yet He created us knowing we would, isn’t that the same thing as creating us to that purpose? How can we be condemned for anything since it is God that created us knowing we would fail?
Ok, this is a new one for me. Are you saying that a perfectly created human body would not contain blood? And that it was at some point introduced into their otherwise perfect bodies and made them imperfect? Where is there any biblical evidence of this?
Flesh and blood are used in place of mortal man, such as in Mat 16:17. Yet after His resurrection, with His perfected body, in Luke 24:39, He states “…for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.”.
I know this by itself will not prove anything, but we have latter day revelation that confirms it.
So you believe that God wanted them to disobey? It was all a set up? That is what you are saying here. God wanted them to know good and evil and the only way they could obtain this knowledge was by disobeying him. Therefore, God was complicit in their sin. There is no other way to read this, Parker.
I am not Parker.
God never wants anyone to disobey. They could have chosen not to eat the fruit. If they had not, then they could have continued in the Garden indefinately. What was part of God’s plan was opposition and our learning to choose good over evil. How could we become like God if we never learned to choose good over evil? And how can we learn to choose good over evil if we were never presented the choice?
In your scenario, Adam had two choices. Either choice would require disobeying one of God’s commands. It was God who gave the two commands. How was God not complicit in Adam’s sin if what you are saying is correct?
It was Eve that put Adam in the position he was, not God. Therefore God was not complicit in Adam’s sin. In a perfect world, both Adam and Eve would not have eaten the fruit. When Eve ate the fruit, it changed their circumstances.
"The woman saw that the tree was good for food, pleasing to the eyes, and desirable for gaining wisdom. So she took some of the fruit and ate it; and she also went and found Adam gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it." (Gn 3:6)
He was there with her when she made the decision to go ahead and disobey God. He made no objection.
It is not mandatory to read this that they were together. It also fits that Eve was off by herself when she was tempted, and after she ate, she went and found Adam and gave some to him. Nothing in the verse you cited would preclude them being from apart.
What you are saying is the Father required Adam to sin, to eat of the fruit, in order to stay together.
Adam could have chosen to not eat the fruit and been obedient in that way, but what would it have accomplished? He would have been alone, Eve would have been alone. No children. No mankind.
Only in the sense that God certainly knew evil. But knowing evil is not a requirement of the happiness found in having a relationship with God and evil has no place in the kingdom of God. He did not want his children to have to experience evil. Lets look at what Adam and Eve actually acquired by eating of the fruit.
Knowing how to, and choosing good over evil is a requirement for us to become like God, and thus having a relationship with God.
"Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized that they were naked." (Gn:3:7)
The wisdom they acquired was a good dose of shame.
And already their education began…by knowing the bitter, they understood better to obey and choose the good, and appreciate the sweet.
They obviously had the choice before they sinned or they could not have chosen to sin in the first place. I would agree that they did not have the tendancy to sin as that was a consequence of the fall, something we must grapple with every day of our lives. Again, you speak of this as if the temptation of the serpent was a good thing, a necessary part of our development.
Their choice came only when faced with opposition. God knows that when faced with opposition, we will not always choose correctly. Sooner or later we will make a mistake.
His plan was for all of us to be like Him. Knowing that we would not always make correct choices when faced with opposition, He provided a way by which we could learn from our mistakes. It would not be: One mistake and you are forever separated from Him. We can learn and grow to become like Him, knowing good and evil and choosing good.
 
So you believe that God wanted them to disobey? It was all a set up? That is what you are saying here. God wanted them to know good and evil and the only way they could obtain this knowledge was by disobeying him. Therefore, God was complicit in their sin. There is no other way to read this, Parker. … In your scenario, Adam had two choices. Either choice would require disobeying one of God’s commands. It was God who gave the two commands. How was God not complicit in Adam’s sin if what you are saying is correct? … "The woman saw that the tree was good for food, pleasing to the eyes, and desirable for gaining wisdom. So she took some of the fruit and ate it; and she also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it." (Gn 3:6)

He was there with her when she made the decision to go ahead and disobey God. He made no objection. … What you are saying is the Father required Adam to sin, to eat of the fruit, in order to stay together.
SteveVH,
That is the central paradox inLDS perception of the Fall. God places Adam and Eve into a no win situation. They are commanded to procreate, which they cannot do without knowledge. They are commanded not to eat of the tree of knowledge, without which they will not know how to procreate. If they do nothing they break the commandment to procreate.

Eve understood first that the commanment to procreate was more important, at least after having been persuaded to eat the fruit, and convinced Adam to join her… The LDS version also presents Adam’s choice to eat as a proactive decision based on awareness that if he did not, they could not procreate – though a proactive informed decision without knowledge of good and evil seems antithetical.

Mormonism differntiates sin from transgression. Sin is worse. Adam and Eve transgressed because they broke a commandment lacking a knowledge of right and wrong, and for choosing the least serious of two bad choices (not being able to procreate versus eating the fruit).

One reason I am explaining this so much is that LDS do not often realize, apart from original sin, how much their view of the fall differs from other Christians. LDS do not base these beliefs on the Bible, and really very little on references to the Fall in the Book of Mormon, though they lean heavily on its, “Adam fell that men might be, and men are that they might have joy.”. Their positions depend on Joseph Smith’s Transliterations of Bible passages, including as I recall the Book of Moses in the Pearl of Great Price, which they canonize as scripture. It ties in heavily with their Temple ordinances, including various details generally not discussed, but the basic story differs little from their published scripture and discourses of leaders.

They consider the story a very literal account. Something in the fruit literally produced a change in their perfectly created bodies. Had they been able to eat the fruit of the Tree of Life , they would have reduced the resdiual fatality from the the fruit of Knowledge, been returned to physical perfection, kept their new found knowledge, and hence have become like God – LDS leaders have written in magazines and presented in conferences that there was no death at all in the world before the Fall of Adam, and that the fall introduced death to everything.

Flyonthewall did a very good job of expressing LDS belief regarding the effects of the fall on mankind in Catholic terms. What is not clarified from that is that this generally physically corrupted human state does not include original sin – but many local LDS teachers leave young members with the impression that original sin means each of us is individually culpable for Adam’s choice, rather than each of us still suffers the consequences of Adam’s choice.

We consider this consequence includes that we are not born children of God, but become children of God through baptism. Mormons beleive that “child of God” refers to our having literally existed in the presence of God as his spirit children before coming here, so are naturally children of God, and only personal sins separate us from Him.

Differing beliefs on these matters create very different perceptions of the same term. The Catechism taches tat Adm and eve’s sin was failure to trust God (however little). Sin is a failure to trust in God, and I understand that original sin is our inherited tendency to doubt God. baptism helps fix this, even when we have no perosnal sins (like children).
Ok, this is a new one for me. Are you saying that a perfectly created human body would not contain blood? And that it was at some point introduced into their otherwise perfect bodies and made them imperfect? Where is there any biblical evidence of this?
I think I know where it comes from. LDS believe that in our resurrected and immortal state we will have bodies of flesh and bone, not flesh and blood – basically that spirit alone will give life to our physical form. They believe that this is the kind of body that God the Father had and that Jesus gained with His resurrection.

It sounds like the concept expounds on this: Adam was created in God’s image, with a perfect and immortal body like God’s before the fall. Hence Adam and Eve must have had bodies of flesh and bone, and blood only came into them with the Fall. (Next we will consider if Adam had a belly button.😉 )

The way that this was presented, flyonthewall may not realize that most Christians do not have this perception about the fall, as they do not believe that God has a body, and they do not believe in the pre-existence of spirits prior to conception, except Jesus, who is God.
 
Here is where things are a little fuzzy for me on this line of thinking. If it was not His will for us to fall, yet He created us knowing we would, isn’t that the same thing as creating us to that purpose? How can we be condemned for anything since it is God that created us knowing we would fail?
What you’re saying is that it’s God’s fault; He “created us knowing we would fail”. Really, how could he condemn us? No, God did not create us for the purpose of falling, he created us for the purpose of loving Him and being in relation with Him. He isn’t just our Creator, He is our Father. Love cannot exist unless one chooses to love. He created us with free will so that we would be capable of choosing to love. It was not His will that we would experience evil. He permitted it in deference to our free will. His will was not that we would disobey, but rather that we trust in Him and remain faithful.
I am not Parker.
Sorry Fly, I’ve been conversing with Parker quite a bit lately. :o
God never wants anyone to disobey. They could have chosen not to eat the fruit. If they had not, then they could have continued in the Garden indefinately. What was part of God’s plan was opposition and our learning to choose good over evil. How could we become like God if we never learned to choose good over evil? And how can we learn to choose good over evil if we were never presented the choice?
Must evil exist in order for good to exist? No. There will be no evil in heaven and it will last for eternity. Do you believe that the fall was actually good for us because now we can go through the exercise of “choosing”? Adam and Eve gained no wisdom, in fact their intellects were darkened and their wills weakened. They now had to toil, suffer and, die. Shame entered the world. Now they knew evil and so would the rest of humanity. Time to celebrate?
It was Eve that put Adam in the position he was, not God. Therefore God was not complicit in Adam’s sin. In a perfect world, both Adam and Eve would not have eaten the fruit. When Eve ate the fruit, it changed their circumstances.
Yes, Eve changed their circumstances but Adam was, nevertheless, faced with the impossible situation of breaking one of God’s commandments, according to your account. He did not have the “free will choice” to do otherwise. That is why this scenario doesn’t work. If Adam was not responsible then he committed no sin. Why did God throw him out of the Garden?
It is not mandatory to read this that they were together. It also fits that Eve was off by herself when she was tempted, and after she ate, she went and found Adam and gave some to him. Nothing in the verse you cited would preclude them being from apart.
I’m not going to argue this point, Fly. It seems very clear to me. "…she also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it."
Adam could have chosen to not eat the fruit and been obedient in that way, but what would it have accomplished? He would have been alone, Eve would have been alone. No children. No mankind.
I don’t know. But what I do know is that God rewards those who remain faithful. How He would have blessed Adam, we’ll never know, it never happened. Maybe He would have allowed Eve to repent and remain with Adam. It does invite some interesting speculation.
The fact that Adam and Eve did not have children until after the fall, however, does not mean that they could not have. Again, we don’t know. But God created them male and female for a purpose. And I seriously doubt He required them to sin before He would allow procreation.
Knowing how to, and choosing good over evil is a requirement for us to become like God, and thus having a relationship with God.

And already their education began…by knowing the bitter, they understood better to obey and choose the good, and appreciate the sweet.

Their choice came only when faced with opposition. God knows that when faced with opposition, we will not always choose correctly. Sooner or later we will make a mistake.
His plan was for all of us to be like Him. Knowing that we would not always make correct choices when faced with opposition, He provided a way by which we could learn from our mistakes. It would not be: One mistake and you are forever separated from Him. We can learn and grow to become like Him, knowing good and evil and choosing good.
A fourteen year old runaway may start her education by being mugged and raped. That wouldn’t mean in was good for her. Their sin brought shame, suffering, anxiety, misery, struggle and death into the world. Why do you think this is a good thing? The only good that comes from it is the fact that our God can turn evil into even a greater good. Witness the crucifixion, the worst crime ever committed by man, deicide, the Creator is killed by the creature. Christ rises from the dead after giving His life for ours. This isn’t about us growing strong and gaining knowledge. It is about realizing our weakness and brokenness and giving our lives to our Savior so that we may rise with Him.
 
What you’re saying is that it’s God’s fault; He “created us knowing we would fail”. Really, how could he condemn us? No, God did not create us for the purpose of falling, he created us for the purpose of loving Him and being in relation with Him. He isn’t just our Creator, He is our Father. Love cannot exist unless one chooses to love. He created us with free will so that we would be capable of choosing to love. It was not His will that we would experience evil. He permitted it in deference to our free will. His will was not that we would disobey, but rather that we trust in Him and remain faithful.
Okay, this is your belief.
Sorry Fly, I’ve been conversing with Parker quite a bit lately. :o
No problem.
Must evil exist in order for good to exist? No. There will be no evil in heaven and it will last for eternity. Do you believe that the fall was actually good for us because now we can go through the exercise of “choosing”? Adam and Eve gained no wisdom, in fact their intellects were darkened and their wills weakened. They now had to toil, suffer and, die. Shame entered the world. Now they knew evil and so would the rest of humanity. Time to celebrate?
How can you have up without a down? A left without a right?
Good, without bad/evil? Sure, in the presense of God, there will be no evil, but there is still a “hell” were it does exist.
You say Adam and Eve gained no wisdom and their intellects were darkened and wills weakened. I disagree. The first thing they may have learned was “I should not have eaten the fruit”. That is wisdom that would have stayed with them the rest of their lives, that would have strengthened their wills to obey the word of the Lord.
All those things you mention, toil, suffering, death, and shame, are all part of this mortal life that was brought on by the fall. What is to be celebrated is that those items are temporary, and the Lord has made it possible to live with Him again.
Yes, Eve changed their circumstances but Adam was, nevertheless, faced with the impossible situation of breaking one of God’s commandments, according to your account. He did not have the “free will choice” to do otherwise. That is why this scenario doesn’t work. If Adam was not responsible then he committed no sin. Why did God throw him out of the Garden?
Adam was responsible for the choice he made, and was in transgression, that is why God cast him out of the garden.
I’m not going to argue this point, Fly. It seems very clear to me. "…she also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it."
I don’t want to argue either. One last attempt to convey what I mean…I can be with my wife at the mall, but we may be in different stores.
I don’t know. But what I do know is that God rewards those who remain faithful. How He would have blessed Adam, we’ll never know, it never happened. Maybe He would have allowed Eve to repent and remain with Adam. It does invite some interesting speculation.
The fact that Adam and Eve did not have children until after the fall, however, does not mean that they could not have. Again, we don’t know. But God created them male and female for a purpose. And I seriously doubt He required them to sin before He would allow procreation.
The account of Adam and Eve is very sparse, and we are left to make a lot of speculations about the “could have beens” or “what ifs”
A fourteen year old runaway may start her education by being mugged and raped. That wouldn’t mean in was good for her. Their sin brought shame, suffering, anxiety, misery, struggle and death into the world. Why do you think this is a good thing? The only good that comes from it is the fact that our God can turn evil into even a greater good. Witness the crucifixion, the worst crime ever committed by man, deicide, the Creator is killed by the creature. Christ rises from the dead after giving His life for ours. This isn’t about us growing strong and gaining knowledge. It is about realizing our weakness and brokenness and giving our lives to our Savior so that we may rise with Him.
As you stated, good can come out of tragedy, it depends on how we re-act to it. Do you believe there would be no valuable lessons to be learned by that 14 yr old? The people around her could also learn from her experience.
Our experiences shape us and turn us into who we are.

This is about growing strong and gaining knowledge. The Savior does not want weak followers, He wants us to be valiant. To be valiant, we must be strong in the teachings of Christ. This life, like a refiner’s fire, can strengthen us.
Yes we have weaknesses, but it is through those weaknesses that we are strengthen by the Lord, and become stronger in our resolve to follow Him, to be like Him…just as He desires.
 
What I find interesting is the LDS article of faith that says “Man will be punished for his own sins and not for Adams transgression.” lol
 
This is about growing strong and gaining knowledge. The Savior does not want weak followers, He wants us to be valiant.
I disagree. I think that the Savior wants followers so weak that they must count on Him as their strength.
 
The other issue is that God already gave Adam and Eve everything they needed. There was a relationship of trust between God and Adam and Eve.

To receive love, do you want someone to love you because he, she/they are forced to do so?..implying that there is a different emotion behind the mask?

I sympathize with Flyonthewall because it has looked to me like Adam and Eve were set up to fail. Where they failed is trying to assume they can become creators.

God created Adam and Eve with free will so that they could freely and thus sincerely love God back without any masks or divided heart.

The greatest effect of wisdom is God Himself. Adam and Eve already had God. They could draw on Him and not the tree in the garden among many others that had forbidden fruit.

They were warned not to eat only of that tree. And then Satan appeared to Eve, not to Adam first. Eve, woman, is the highest of all creation. Women are more devout and spiritual than men. Because she was God’s greatest gift as companion and helpmate to Adam in her relationship to God. If Satan had approached Adam first, may be he may have not chosen to eat, but it was through his wife, seeing her transformed into a more alluring person, more seductive being after eating the fruit, that she in turn through seduction and not wisdom, enabled Adam to eat it.

So the wisdom Adam got instead was tilling the earth, the soil by the sweat of his brow
and Eve’s condition was lessened from help mate to one of subordination and dependency on Adam. Men tend to abuse women on whom they are dependent. Now there was friction and a burdening inter dependency between them, and Eve’s suffering in childbirth was increased. How many women die from childbirth??

The problem is if Adam and Eve had obeyed God and trusted Him, they would have grown in wisdom because God is the source of Wisdom. Satan had deceived them.
And thus the trusting relationship between God and mankind was broken.

Adam and Eve could have lived immortal lives. There was no other event in this scenario of them having children before the fall, because Satan and his angels roamed the earth after the fall. They, because they have spirit states and no bodies, could instantly on their creation before God, and they too, created with a free will could also chose to follow God or refuse Him. So instantly at their creations, they decided to follow God or not.

And as soon as Adam and Eve began their existence in the garden, experiencing much goodness and tasting the fruit of many trees in the garden, it didn’t take Satan very long at all to encounter them…coming to them as a most beautiful of all creatures.

The wages of death lead to sin.

But those who have lived a just life down through the ages of the Old Testament were never abandoned in death. Recall at the moment of Christ’s death on the Cross, the bodies of the just who had died, rose up and began appearing around Jerusalem…Matthew notes it in his gospel…

These just souls were waiting, not condemned to hell, but in a place of waiting for the Messiah to fulfill His mission. So God did not set up mankind to fail per se. We are all given free will.
 
Okay, this is your belief.
And with which part of this belief do you disagree?

That He created us for the purpose of loving Him and being in relation with Him?

That He isn’t just our Creator, He is our Father?

That love cannot exist unless one chooses to love?

That He created us with free will so that we would be capable of choosing love?

That it was not His will that we would experience evil?

That He permitted evil in deference to our free will?

Or that His will was not that we would disobey, but rather that we trust in Him and remain faithful?
How can you have up without a down? A left without a right? Good, without bad/evil? Sure, in the presense of God, there will be no evil, but there is still a “hell” were it does exist.
As you said, in the presence of God there will be no evil. That is proof that evil does not have to exist in order for good to exist. Adam and Eve lived in the presence of God. They did not have to allow evil to enter our world. We do the same thing when we sin, when we disobey God. But that is not His will. It is exactly when we do not do His will that we sin.
As for hell, it was not necessary that it exist. It exists because of the choices of the angels and ourselves to disobey God rather than to remain faithful. God does not send us to hell, we send ourselves.
You say Adam and Eve gained no wisdom and their intellects were darkened and wills weakened. I disagree. The first thing they may have learned was “I should not have eaten the fruit”.
This statement presupposes that they did not know, before the fall, that they should not have eaten the fruit; that they had to eat it in order to gain this knowledge. But we know that they did know. God had already warned them. So what did they gain that they did not already have?
Adam was responsible for the choice he made, and was in transgression, that is why God cast him out of the garden.
Yes, of course, that is my point. But in your scenario, Adam was placed in a position in which he had to break one of God’s commands in order to keep the other. He had to eat of the fruit in order to stay with his wife. If this is true then he had no culpability. If eating the fruit for the purpose of keeping God’s command that they be fruitful and multiply was God’s will then he did not sin. The fact that God tossed him out is proof that he was culpable and therefore violated God’s will. In other words, God did not will that Adam disobey Him in order remain with Eve. He wanted him to remain faithful, just as He wanted Eve to remain faithful.
The account of Adam and Eve is very sparse, and we are left to make a lot of speculations about the “could have beens” or “what ifs”
As you stated, good can come out of tragedy, it depends on how we re-act to it. Do you believe there would be no valuable lessons to be learned by that 14 yr old? The people around her could also learn from her experience. Our experiences shape us and turn us into who we are.
Fly, I am not at all saying that we should not or cannot learn from our experiences. It is the notion that God willed that we experience evil in order to make us into something better than He had already made. That what God had made in creating Adam and Eve was left wanting. It assumes that the first couple were walking around half stupid, in need of knowledge that could only be gained by disobeying God. It is even implied in your comments that Eve’s disobedience was actually for a noble cause; acquiring knowledge that she would otherwise not have, and that this was God’s will.
This is about growing strong and gaining knowledge. The Savior does not want weak followers, He wants us to be valiant. To be valiant, we must be strong in the teachings of Christ. This life, like a refiner’s fire, can strengthen us.
Yes we have weaknesses, but it is through those weaknesses that we are strengthen by the Lord, and become stronger in our resolve to follow Him, to be like Him…just as He desires.
Ultimately it is through humbling ourselves so that we might come to the realizaion of our lack of ability to save ourselves, regardless of how strong we think we may be.
 
I have always been puzzled by the seeming lack of communication between Mormons and Catholics. It is as if we speak entirely different languages. Plain, English words do not seem to carry the same definitions. Theological truths, accepted by all of Christianity, have no part to play in our discussions.

After re-reading Peter John’s post, I have to wonder if we will ever be able to make any progress in our conversations. It has become apparent that this really has nothing to do with arguing the fine points of Scripture. Rather it has everything to do with preconceived ideas about the nature of God and man.

It seems that that the Momon view is that the fall was part of God’s will, a challenge of sorts, that we accepted in our pre-mortal existence, to undergo a test in order to be strengthened and so progress on our way to Godhood. In short, the fall was a good thing and we shouldn’t be too hard on Adam and Eve. They were just doing God’s will.

This preconceived idea, originating from sources outside of biblical Scripture, then dictates the meaning of Scripture, regardless of any coherent argument to the contrary. So my question is this. Is there any point in continuing a discussion of the meaning Scripture on this or any other subject when there is no consideration given to arguments that go against the pre-conceived idea, no matter how much sense they might make?
 
I have always been puzzled by the seeming lack of communication between Mormons and Catholics. It is as if we speak entirely different languages. Plain, English words do not seem to carry the same definitions. Theological truths, accepted by all of Christianity, have no part to play in our discussions.

After re-reading Peter John’s post, I have to wonder if we will ever be able to make any progress in our conversations. It has become apparent that this really has nothing to do with arguing the fine points of Scripture. Rather it has everything to do with preconceived ideas about the nature of God and man.

It seems that that the Momon view is that the fall was part of God’s will, a challenge of sorts, that we accepted in our pre-mortal existence, to undergo a test in order to be strengthened and so progress on our way to Godhood. In short, the fall was a good thing and we shouldn’t be too hard on Adam and Eve. They were just doing God’s will.

This preconceived idea, originating from sources outside of biblical Scripture, then dictates the meaning of Scripture, regardless of any coherent argument to the contrary. So my question is this. Is there any point in continuing a discussion of the meaning Scripture on this or any other subject when there is no consideration given to arguments that go against the pre-conceived idea, no matter how much sense they might make?
When it comes to original sin in particular Mormonism perceives sin as merely a matter of individual disobedience. The idea of a tendency and capability for sinfulness being something that separates us from God to begin with has no space in LDS theology because of the in herent difference in its understanding of our relationship with God. Because of these differences when we say “Original Sin” Mormons who have not been specifically educated externally in the rest of Christian dialogue perceive it to mean that each individual shares personal responsibility for a disobedient choice of one individual, so antithetical ti their thinking that no real dialogue can ever occur. Unfortunately they do not realize that they are shadow boxing – what they immediately reject is not what is being proposed at all.
 
When it comes to original sin in particular Mormonism perceives sin as merely a matter of individual disobedience. The idea of a tendency and capability for sinfulness being something that separates us from God to begin with has no space in LDS theology because of the in herent difference in its understanding of our relationship with God. Because of these differences when we say “Original Sin” Mormons who have not been specifically educated externally in the rest of Christian dialogue perceive it to mean that each individual shares personal responsibility for a disobedient choice of one individual, so antithetical ti their thinking that no real dialogue can ever occur. Unfortunately they do not realize that they are shadow boxing – what they immediately reject is not what is being proposed at all.
I became interested in Mormonism because one of the teens in the youth group I was leading followed her boyfriend into the Mormon church. I was shocked and decided to learn about this organization. I was curious as to what she found attractive about it. She sent me some material and I about fell over. It was beyond belief, to me, that she could buy into it. I thought I knew some basics about Mormonism but found out I was actually very ignorant. I met her for lunch and by the time our talk was over it was apparent that she also was ignorant about what she was getting into and that she was doing this for the boy. She wouldn’t admit to this, of course.

Since then I have really tried to understand the basis for Mormon beliefs, how they arrive at their theology, their concept of salvation, etc. I have been at this for two years now and feel I have made little progress in my understanding. I think I have a pretty good idea of their mainline beliefs, but still have no idea how they arrive at those beliefs. I met with a Mormon bishop soon after this girl’s conversion. When I questioned him as to the historical evidence behind the “Great Apostasy” his answer was that he didn’t need history, he had the testimony of Joseph Smith. I wrote him off as an ignorant man who could not defend his own faith. The fact that he was a bishop amazed me. I didn’t realize that his answer to me is really at the center of the Mormon faith. Facts be damned. I have the testimony of Joseph Smith.
 
I became interested in Mormonism because one of the teens in the youth group I was leading followed her boyfriend into the Mormon church. I was shocked and decided to learn about this organization… The fact that he was a bishop amazed me. I didn’t realize that his answer to me is really at the center of the Mormon faith. Facts be damned. I have the testimony of Joseph Smith.
To a Latter-day Saint the Testimony of Joseph Smith as a Prophet is a fact, and the Book of Mormon is its physical evidence. LDS terminology reflects the circumstances of its founding. Something that sounds consistent with other Christian theology means something different, but this is not overt deception.

Joseph Smith’s restorationist perspective affects this. Convinced that they have the original Church, believers’ definitions are the actual intended definitions, to them. Their Biblical interpretations, shaped by “latter-day revelation”, become those intended by scripture.

The best book I have found to understand Mormonism from the LDS perspective, with a minimum of apologetics, and in secular terms is “Latter Days” by Coke Newell. The best modern LDS discourse I know to explain what makes the LDS perspective on Joseph Smith so significant is “Joseph Smith: A Revealer of Christ,” by Bruce R. McConkie, a prominent 20th Century member of the LDS Quorum of the Twelve ( speeches.byu.edu/reader/reader.php?id=6198 ).

The most important Catholic document related to core differences in general Christian theology and Mormon beliefs explains a 2001 decision to not consider Mormon baptism valid ewtn.com/library/theology/mormbap1.htm . Mormons reading this may not know that Catholics consider most Christian baptisms valid, Catholic or not. A Methodist converting to Catholicism is not baptized again, just confirmed. Baptism cannot be revoked or repeated.

Coming back to point, LDS often believe many inaccurate things about other Churches, such as they all rejected miracles in 1830, they denied the Gift of the Holy Spirit, and the money they earn preaching matters more than truth, or that original sin is individual responsibility for Adam’s choice. This gap in LDS communion with strict Christianity arises neither from its non-Trinitarian perspective, nor its revisionist theology, yet still hinges on Smith’s revelatory role in its doctrine, because it expresses the misconceptions of other churches present in his formative environment.

Joseph Smith was born when Thomas Jefferson was president, and that should put things into perspective. His family moved from Vermont isolation to western New York only three years after the end of the wars with Tecumseh. The culture of these communities at the time resembled the rugged towns of Western movies more than Eastern coastal culture.

Preaching most affecting young Joseph Smith and his later followers was protestant revivalist, puritan rooted, and often from self-educated preachers. Contrary to a seeming variety of Churches by Smith’s account, he saw a narrow and homogenous cross-section of Christianity. This incomplete theology was amplified by diminished Catholic influence and increased Masonic influence. Many early LDS members were Masons, including Brigham young, and Smith was made a Master Mason without having to receive the degrees. To Smith it looked like all churches taught that miracles were done away, that Jesus was returning soon, and that original sin meant personal responsibility for what Adam chose, not simply sharing in the consequences of it. These misunderstandings are actually reflected in the content of the Book of Mormon, which affirms the fallen state of mankind even as it denounces infant baptism.

This denouncement of a misconception of original sin reflects what Joseph Smith was exposed to, not what most Churches taught. When Smith began propogating his “Restored Gospel” many of those hearing it had the same misconceptions, from the same sources. Many were also preachers from fringe frontier religions – some of which survive today such as The Church of Christ, called “Campbellites” at the time.

Mormons spent the better part of a century in insular communities when not in utter isolation. This extended the misconceptions about what other Churches teach into the mid-20th Century when LeGrand Richards of the Council of the Twelve wrote the central book of modern LDS apologetics, “A Marvelous Work and a Wonder,” which indicates ignorance at best about what some churches teach, and in the case of Catholicism perhaps even mild deception. This book passed on these misconceptions to generations – like mine – that were not even in insular communities.

I hope that explains where this apparent dichotomy comes from. It is not overt alteration of the terms,but an embedded culture in which terms assimilate new meanings, and members assume their common meanings as generally understood. It rewards those among it, like Hugh Nibley, who can make the most creative if circuitous application of those new meanings in historical context. Because of it, they would not consider the way we can trace the historical roots of Catholic belief and leadership to the Apostles any more valid than the way I abbreviated the same technique to show whence arise their beliefs.

They believe that the original scriptures – all the way back to Adam – were dictated by God, corrupted, and restored through more revelation with new bits each time (adapted “dispensationalism” – another 19th Century frontier idea) not that they were the product of circumstances arranged by God. The context then becomes immaterial for then or now. What we think we know of the context could be wrong. What the records tell us is not what they originally said. The revelation is dependable, because God can’t lie.
 
To a Latter-day Saint the Testimony of Joseph Smith as a Prophet is a fact, and the Book of Mormon is its physical evidence. LDS terminology reflects the circumstances of its founding. Something that sounds consistent with other Christian theology means something different, but this is not overt deception…

I hope that explains where this apparent dichotomy comes from. It is not overt alteration of the terms,but an embedded culture in which terms assimilate new meanings, and members assume their common meanings as generally understood…
Thanks for this, Peter John. It is very refreshing to hear from someone that really does understand the Mormon mind-set and can actually articulate their beliefs in a non-derogatory manner. I have said before that Catholic bashers are not the best source of information if you want to learn about Catholicism and the same would be true for Mormon bashers. It is clear that you do not approach these discussions from that perspective.
Your presence here is greatly appreciated.
 
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