Mormons, what do you think actually happens at your "Communion"?

[SteveVH]

Mormon theological terms are somewhat different from Catholic ones. What you normally call a “sacrament” (as in the “seven sacraments”) we call an “ordinance,” and what you call “Eucharist,” "Mass, “Communion,” we call “the Sacrament”.

Thank you, that helps.

 

[SteveVH]

To all of the Mormon posters on this thread - thank you. Due to some of the other posters on this thread, one in particular, I cannot continue in this discussion. I feel personally offended and think it best to end it at this point.

May God bless all of you.

 

[dianaiad]

,snip to here. >

I submit AGAIN that we should return to the original topic. Otherwise, I appeal to the moderators to close this thread. Not because I cannot support my belief, but because this is a topic that involves things too holy to be bandied about as some sort of idle talk, some sort of “cocktail” discussion, even if it IS with Mormons and supposedly about what THEY believe.

Y’know, when I first read the above paragraph I was taken very much aback…I think if you will reread what you wrote, you will understand why. After all, the entire point of what the Mormons have said on this thread so far is to emphasize just how holy a thing we think that the Sacrament is…to the point that, to us, the word “Sacrament” is reserved for that event you call “communion.” In fact, our main church meeting is called ‘Sacrament Meeting’ because it revolves around that specific sacrament. So for you to plead for people to stop talking about something you hold to be so special, so holy…even if it IS with the Mormons… struck me as being incredibly dismissive of any opinion WE might have of this…well—wow.

On my second and third reading, however, I realized that it wasn’t that you were attempting to insult the Mormons and our view of this communion (well, you did, of course, but that was secondary…) it is because you hold your participation in the Eucharist to be so special, so holy, so unique an experience that discussion of it in here seems to be sacrilegious; it spoils the spirit of it for you. It seems…very wrong…to be discussing it in this thread, in this manner. I understand completely–and I agree with you completely.

After all, that is how we view Temple matters. Perhaps, by the same token, you now have some hint as to why Mormons will not discuss those outside Temple walls. I didn’t have the…opportunity…to read the posts that were deleted from this thread, and I’m glad I didn’t. You may have–and if they were as disrespectful of what you hold to be sacred as we find so often in terms of Temple matters, then I think you truly do have a clearer understanding of why we don’t speak of certain things outside Temple walls.

…and no, this is not an invitation to discuss the nature of Temple matters in this thread. It was simply a passing comment about what I perceive as an epiphany on the part of MelanieAnne; if you hold something to be sacred, you don’t, yourself, hold it up for ridicule. I’m entirely with her on this.

 

[MelanieAnne]

Hi Diana,

It was not my intention to insult Mormons and I am sorry for any offense. I was attempting to distinguish between discussion of the topic (how Mormons view their Sacrament) and how it had been derailed (discussion of the Catholic Eucharist.) I did so poorly and I am sorry for that. I did not intend to offend or insult, I was only trying to distinguish and I did a poor job of it.

I don’t support Mormonism, but I agree that it would be offensive to mock the most sacred aspects of Mormonism and I would never want to do that intentionally. We can argue about a lot of things and create very lively discussions without mocking or ridiculing things such as the Eucharist, Mormon Temple rituals, etc.

And now that we have both agreed with one another I suppose lightning is going to strike somewhere.

 

[SirThomasMore]

The bottom line is this:

Jesus told us how to communion. He even did it for us. He showed us.

An Angel told Joe to do it differently.

The Bible says that if an angel tells you something than what is doctrine, you KNOW the angel is not from God.

That is bottom line. It saddens me that so many people…so many GOOD people. are following men who were fooled by angels not from God.

 

[zerinus]

To all of the Mormon posters on this thread - thank you. Due to some of the other posters on this thread, one in particular, I cannot continue in this discussion. I feel personally offended and think it best to end it at this point.

May God bless all of you.

I don’t think that you should. You started this thread, and you have the right to finish it. Why should you give in to those who want to sabotage it? If somebody wanted to rob your home and drive you out of your house, do you think you should just let them do it?

 

[SteveVH]

I don’t think that you should. You started this thread, and you have the right to finish it. Why should you give in to those who want to sabotage it? If somebody wanted to rob your home and drive you out of your house, do you think you should just let them do it?

Thanks zerinus. Actually I think we have things worked out. It was a misunderstanding. I’m not one to back down, but thought it better to stop then continue an aggrevating conversation to which I would only have contributed. I have found many of the Mormon responses enlightening as to your beliefs on the subject and am looking forward to responding and learning more. Bottom line, I’m back in.

 

[zerinus]

Thanks zerinus. Actually I think we have things worked out. It was a misunderstanding. I’m not one to back down, but thought it better to stop then continue an aggrevating conversation to which I would only have contributed. I have found many of the Mormon responses enlightening as to your beliefs on the subject and am looking forward to responding and learning more. Bottom line, I’m back in.

 

[dianaiad]

Hi Diana,

It was not my intention to insult Mormons and I am sorry for any offense. I was attempting to distinguish between discussion of the topic (how Mormons view their Sacrament) and how it had been derailed (discussion of the Catholic Eucharist.) I did so poorly and I am sorry for that. I did not intend to offend or insult, I was only trying to distinguish and I did a poor job of it.

I don’t support Mormonism, but I agree that it would be offensive to mock the most sacred aspects of Mormonism and I would never want to do that intentionally. We can argue about a lot of things and create very lively discussions without mocking or ridiculing things such as the Eucharist, Mormon Temple rituals, etc.

And now that we have both agreed with one another I suppose lightning is going to strike somewhere.

Probably.

I enjoy a good lightning storm, though…

I’m still entirely with you regarding the sacred nature of the Eucharist the way Catholics perceive it, and just want to say that we hold the Sacrament to be holy and sacred, too…and should not mock or deride the way either one of us deals with the issue. We do it differently, but that doesn’t mean that we FEEL differently about the very sacred nature of it.

Diana

 

[SteveVH]

No problem. “Ordinances” are specific rituals, empowered by God through the Atonement, performed with priesthood authority, that enter us into covenants with God. One specific ordinance is called “Sacrament”, which is what other churches call the Eucharist, Lord’s Supper, Communion, etc. Other ordinances include Baptism, Confirmation, Endowment, Sealing, etc.

Here is a definition from the Church:

"In the Church, an ordinance is a sacred, formal act performed by the authority of the priesthood. Some ordinances are essential to our exaltation. These ordinances are called saving ordinances. They include baptism, confirmation, ordination to the Melchizedek Priesthood (for men), the temple endowment, and the marriage sealing. With each of these ordinances, we enter into solemn covenants with the Lord.

Other ordinances, such as naming and blessing children, consecrating oil, and administering to the sick and afflicted, are also performed by priesthood authority. While they are not essential to our salvation, they are important for our comfort, guidance, and encouragement.

Ordinances and covenants help us remember who we are. They remind us of our duty to God. The Lord has provided them to help us come unto Him and receive eternal life. When we honor them, He strengthens us spiritually.
"
lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?locale=0&sourceId=13bb9daac5d98010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&vgnextoid=bbd508f54922d010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD

Edit: Here’s a definition of “Sacrament”:

On the night before His Crucifixion, Jesus Christ met with His Apostles and instituted the sacrament (see Luke 22:19–20). After His Resurrection, He instituted the sacrament among the Nephites (see 3 Nephi 18:1–11). Today the sacrament is an ordinance in which Church members partake of bread and water in remembrance of Jesus Christ’s atoning sacrifice. This ordinance is an essential part of worship and spiritual development. Through this ordinance, Church members renew the covenants they made with God when they were baptized.

When He instituted the sacrament, Jesus Christ said, “This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me. . . . This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you” (Luke 22:19–20). The sacrament provides an opportunity for Church members to ponder and remember with gratitude the life, ministry, and Atonement of the Son of God. The broken bread is a reminder of His body and His physical suffering—especially His suffering on the cross. It is also a reminder that through His mercy and grace, all people will be resurrected and given the opportunity for eternal life with God.

The water is a reminder that the Savior shed His blood in intense spiritual suffering and anguish, beginning in the Garden of Gethsemane and concluding on the cross. In the garden He said, “My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death” (Matthew 26:38). Submitting to the will of the Father, He suffered more than we can comprehend: “Blood [came] from every pore, so great [was] his anguish for the wickedness and the abominations of his people” (Mosiah 3:7). He suffered for the sins, sorrows, and pains of all people, providing remission of sins for those who repent and live the gospel (see 2 Nephi 9:21–23). Through the shedding of His blood, Jesus Christ saved all people from what the scriptures call the “original guilt” of Adam’s transgression (Moses 6:54).

Partaking of the sacrament is a witness to God that the remembrance of His Son will extend beyond the short time of that sacred ordinance. Part of this ordinance is a promise to remember Him always and a witness of individual willingness to take upon oneself the name of Jesus Christ and to keep His commandments. In partaking of the sacrament and making these commitments, Church members renew the covenant they made at baptism (see Mosiah 18:8–10; D&C 20:37).

In return, the Lord renews the promised remission of sin and enables Church members to “always have his Spirit to be with them” (D&C 20:77). The Spirit’s constant companionship is one of the greatest gifts of mortality.

In preparation for the sacrament each week, Church members take time to examine their lives and repent of sins. They do not need to be perfect in order to partake of the sacrament, but they should have a spirit of humility and repentance in their hearts. Every week they strive to prepare for that sacred ordinance with a broken heart and a contrite spirit (see 3 Nephi 9:20).

lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?index=19&locale=0&sourceId=ca18f73c28d98010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&vgnextoid=bbd508f54922d010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD

I hope that this fully answers your question as to what we believe happens during our Sacrament.

Caprica, I must say that, while I would disagree with the theology behind the Mormon view of the “sacrament”, I have gained much respect for the sacredness you attribute to it. While it is difficult for me not to respond by comparing and contrasting the Catholic view, it is important that we stay on topic. I have had a really difficult time with much of Mormon teaching; the nature of God, eternal marriage, etc. At least I think I have a pretty good handle on what you believe and why you believe what you do concerning this subject and I thank you for your contribution here.

God bless you.

 

[SteveVH]

SteveVH,
I realize this discussion needs to stay on topic about LDS beliefs about communion, so I hope as I respond to your post those reading will understand that I am trying to explain the LDS beliefs and the basis of those beliefs, while stating also that the LDS do certainly believe the words taught by the Savior in John 6, and believe that it is important to remember the Passover.

Here are several more verses from John 6 where the Savior established the context for His remarks by contrasting “manna” (given by God) to His being the “bread of life”.

26 Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.
27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?
31 Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.

(Clearly, those listeners asking for a sign wanted bread to eat, since He had already given them bread to eat. They wanted more bread.)

Parker, I really have not been trying to ignore you. As you might gather from some of the posts, we’ve hit some bumps in the road on this thread and I have been trying to get them straightened out. I will just say, as I told Caprica, you have also contributed to my understanding of your beliefs concerning the “Sacrament”. As I also told her, I respect your beliefs (though disagree strongly as to how you have arrived at them). To most non-Catholics, or at least the non-liturgical churches, “communion” is something I don’t think they have ever really understood or thought about much. Jesus said “do it” so they do it, now and then, if at all. I admire all of you and thank you very much for the answers you have given here. I really had no idea that you all felt so strongly about the subject and it is refreshing to know that you do.

I wish you the best always.

 

[zerinus]

While it is difficult for me not to respond by comparing and contrasting the Catholic view, it is important that we stay on topic.

This “on topic” business is a bit ridiculous and silly. How can a Catholic and Mormon discuss the Mormon theology of “the Sacrament,” without at the same time comparing it with and discussing the same theology in Catholicism (Mass, Communion, Eucharist)? That don’t make much sense to me.

 

[SteveVH]

This “on topic” business is a bit ridiculous and silly. How can a Catholic and Mormon discuss the Mormon theology of “the Sacrament,” without at the same time comparing it with and discussing the same theology in Catholicism (Mass, Communion, Eucharist)? That don’t make much sense to me.

I’m trying to come up with a good argument with which to refute you. Its coming… wait for it… Oh well. Apparently the moderators agree that we can’t discuss the Holy Eucharist on this thread. I am truly confused as well.

 

[zerinus]

I’m trying to come up with a good argument with which to refute you. Its coming… wait for it… Oh well. Apparently the moderators agree that we can’t discuss the Holy Eucharist on this thread. I am truly confused as well.

The moderators must be listening too much to one side or the other. Unless there is a clear violation of the rules, they should leave threads alone, and let people get on with their debates.

 

[SteveVH]

The moderators must be listening too much to one side or the other. Unless there is a clear violation of the rules, they should leave threads alone, and let people get on with their debates.

I’m contemplating starting a thread titled “Comparing and contrasting Mormon/Catholic views of the Sacrament/Eucharist”. What do you think? Honestly, I think the problem was the manner in which the Eucharist was being discussed by some of the posters. Its hard to know now as I did not even get to read many of the posts as they had been deleted before I returned to the thread after spending Father’s Day with my family.

 

[zerinus]

I’m contemplating starting a thread titled “Comparing and contrasting Mormon/Catholic views of the Sacrament/Eucharist”. What do you think?

Great Idea! I am with you on that one.

 

[dianaiad]

I’m contemplating starting a thread titled “Comparing and contrasting Mormon/Catholic views of the Sacrament/Eucharist”. What do you think? Honestly, I think the problem was the manner in which the Eucharist was being discussed by some of the posters. Its hard to know now as I did not even get to read many of the posts as they had been deleted before I returned to the thread after spending Father’s Day with my family.

The problem, from where I was sitting in the OTHER thread, wasn’t that people were being disrespectful of the Eucharist. In fact, it was entirely the other way around. It was that constant and disparaging reference to ‘wonderbread and water’ in terms of the LDS Sacrament that made me leave the fray for a couple of days, wondering if there was any reason to come back to CAF. I was, to be very honest, very close to simply closing up shop and leaving, period. (and no, I do NOT want to hear any 'oh, darn…she didn’t go after all…" comments!)

If we could speak of such things with respect and complete understanding that the OTHER participants in the conversation are as sincere and full of faith in their own experiences of communion/Sacrament/Eucharist as we are, and if we can express that respect–if not for the beliefs themselves, at least for the people who HOLD them, then we might be able to discuss something that means this much to us all.

If not…if we can’t do that…if we can’t refrain from taking snide potshots at the way others worship or the form that worship takes, then perhaps it should be one of those ‘don’t go there at all’ topics.

The thing is, from what I understand, when Catholics partake of the Eucharist, they believe that they are, very literally, in the real presence of Jesus Christ. This is not something to disparage, even if others disagree with the extreme literal nature of the thing. It is, after all, not what WE think that matters here in terms of what respect should be shown. By the same token, Latter-day Saints believe that we are in His spiritual presence; we are all thinking of Him and His Atonement, and we ARE renewing our baptismal covenants when we partake of the Sacrament. The Sacrament is why we meet on Sundays; everything else we do is “add-ons” Important ‘add-ons,’ to be sure, but it is the Sacrament that is commanded. Therefore, for both of us, this aspect of our faith is vital…at the very center of our worship. Certainly it sometimes seems more important to us, Catholic/Mormon–than it does to many other Christian faiths. Since this is so, I think that cutting each other a little slack here would be a good idea.

Just my opinion, for what it’s worth.
Diana

 

[SteveVH]

The problem, from where I was sitting in the OTHER thread, wasn’t that people were being disrespectful of the Eucharist. In fact, it was entirely the other way around. It was that constant and disparaging reference to ‘wonderbread and water’ in terms of the LDS Sacrament that made me leave the fray for a couple of days, wondering if there was any reason to come back to CAF. I was, to be very honest, very close to simply closing up shop and leaving, period. (and no, I do NOT want to hear any 'oh, darn…she didn’t go after all…" comments!)

If we could speak of such things with respect and complete understanding that the OTHER participants in the conversation are as sincere and full of faith in their own experiences of communion/Sacrament/Eucharist as we are, and if we can express that respect–if not for the beliefs themselves, at least for the people who HOLD them, then we might be able to discuss something that means this much to us all.

If not…if we can’t do that…if we can’t refrain from taking snide potshots at the way others worship or the form that worship takes, then perhaps it should be one of those ‘don’t go there at all’ topics.

The thing is, from what I understand, when Catholics partake of the Eucharist, they believe that they are, very literally, in the real presence of Jesus Christ. This is not something to disparage, even if others disagree with the extreme literal nature of the thing. It is, after all, not what WE think that matters here in terms of what respect should be shown. By the same token, Latter-day Saints believe that we are in His spiritual presence; we are all thinking of Him and His Atonement, and we ARE renewing our baptismal covenants when we partake of the Sacrament. The Sacrament is why we meet on Sundays; everything else we do is “add-ons” Important ‘add-ons,’ to be sure, but it is the Sacrament that is commanded. Therefore, for both of us, this aspect of our faith is vital…at the very center of our worship. Certainly it sometimes seems more important to us, Catholic/Mormon–than it does to many other Christian faiths. Since this is so, I think that cutting each other a little slack here would be a good idea.

Just my opinion, for what it’s worth.
Diana

Diana, I wish everyone had your perspective on this. Thank you. I couldn’t agree more.
In order to stay within the forum rules concerning “staying on topic” I have started another thread "Comparing and contrasting Mormon/Catholic views on the Sacrament/Eucharist. I’m hoping to accomplish exactly what you have stated and hoping this thread just goes away. I hope you’ll join us there. I have given a Catholic perspective on this subject and am waiting for a Mormon to give theirs. I’d love to hear your explanation of the Mormon Sacrament to get things rolling. Thanks.