Mormons: What does it mean that Michael holds the keys of Salvation?

[dianaiad]

I have always understood that God created all creatures with much love and care, that His will for our existence is sufficient for us to exist.

Jesus told us not to worry about tomorrow because the Heavenly Father showed His love for the birds, and the flowers in the field were more beautiful than the treasure of Solomon…so how much more He cares for us.

…so our only purpose is to…what; entertain Him? confirm His purpose to Himself? We’re a hobby?

I know that the questions above sound impertinant, but they are serious. What IS our purpose here?

Why did God create us?

Frankly, my life, though much better than the vast majority of people who have ever lived on the planet (and yes, though I’m not exactly “American” rich, I still know that this is so), is not so glorious that the thought of my reason for existance is to be bug on a celestial lawn ornament gets me all that excited.

 

[LongJourney]

Year one, week one, day one. Let’s all start out in first grade,like 1956 :

The Purpose of Man’s Existence

Lesson 1 from the Baltimore Cathechism

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1. Who made us?

God made us.

In the beginning, God created heaven and earth. (Genesis 1:1)
2. Who is God?

God is the Supreme Being, infinitely perfect, who made all things and keeps them in existence.

In him we live and move and have our being. (Acts 17:28)
3. Why did God make us?

God made us to show forth His goodness and to share with us His everlasting happiness in heaven.

Eye has not seen nor ear heard, nor has it entered into the heart of man, what things God has prepared for those who love him. (I Corinthians 2:9)
4. What must we do to gain the happiness of heaven?

To gain the happiness of heaven we must know, love, and serve God in this world.

Lay not up to yourselves treasures on earth; where the rust and moth consume and where thieves break through and steal. But lay up to yourselves treasures in heaven; where neither the rust nor moth doth consume, and where thieves do not break through nor steal. (Matthew 6:19-20)

catholicity.com/baltimore-catechism/lesson01.html

 

[Ceil-1]

Our purpose is to know, love, and serve God in this life and be happy with Him forever in the next.



Deceptively simple.

 

[Ceil-1]

Oh, darn, Long Journey beat me to it.

 

[LongJourney]

:extrahappy:

Just couldn’t resist!

 

[dianaiad]

Year one, week one, day one. Let’s all start out in first grade,like 1956 :

catholicity.com/baltimore-catechism/lesson01.html

1955, LJ, I was in the first grade in 1955. close, though…

and thank you…

but---------God made us to prove to Himself how good He is?

I know, I know…but I have to tell you that THIS is one of the biggest problems I have with those who claim that God made us because, well…He made us. Nobody has ever really given me a reasonable reason why He would; This entry in the catechism tells us THAT He made us, and what WE have to do to be happy–but

where is there anything about why He made us, and not, say-- stuffed kittens? or gludelpatches? Why US? What is so special about us that He would want us, anyway? We can’t ever, according to anybody I’ve ever spoken to, be His peers–in fact, according to the impression I get, we can’t ever be more to Him, in intelligence, virtue and everything else, be closer to Him than, say–bacteria are to us, if that. So…why?

Yes, I see in the description that there might be something in it for us, but what’s in it for Him?

 

[LongJourney]

To love us in return, no matter how stubborn we have been.

 

[KathleenGee]

On the first page of Genesis…when the Lord looked at His creation, He said it was good. And then He rested…

Of course, this story is using human terms to explain how life began.

But there is truth in this human narrative, and the truth is that God made us and all of creation good and He was pleased.

God’s nature is love. He created us – as repeated before – to love and serve Him and to be with Him in the next life. He gave us Jesus after the break with sin, to restore us to God Who is all merciful, and to restore us to ourselves and to each other. Jesus said in essence what we do to others, we do to Him.

And we draw on the life of Christ in the sacraments and Word to empty ourselves and become more of Christ and to extend Christ through our lives to others.

I think one of the big things I am learning right now is that even though there is alot of wrong and deception and hatred and corruption, if a person has faith in Christ, renounces one’s self – and that involves suffering…even if he is in a room with about 20 very bad people, that person’s faith in Christ is lived out – in simple every day actions of one’s daily duty…that it will work grace to bring to life the presence of Christ in this world…stopping the evil of those 20 people, and beginning to create the kingdom of Christ among us. We give up so easily.

That is very hard to do…and the action of God’s love working through us where there is no faith or alot of opposition to God…to live for Him, for His kingdom, and for those in need of conversion…and can be very hard to accomplish, but a great work we are called to do every day.

I read something this past year that what God will judge us on is not the big events of our life so much, but the common ordinary things we are supposed to do every day.

Mother Theresa said God looks at our little actions in a very big way…and we make our morning offering as a sacrifice of love to God that it is all offered up for the love of Jesus, for perseverance of the just in the world, and the conversion of sinners…if we forget during the day with all sorts of events, God has taken that offering.

 

[stormy99]

1955, LJ, I was in the first grade in 1955. close, though…

and thank you…

but---------God made us to prove to Himself how good He is?

I know, I know…but I have to tell you that THIS is one of the biggest problems I have with those who claim that God made us because, well…He made us. Nobody has ever really given me a reasonable reason why He would; This entry in the catechism tells us THAT He made us, and what WE have to do to be happy–but

where is there anything about why He made us, and not, say-- stuffed kittens? or gludelpatches? Why US? What is so special about us that He would want us, anyway? We can’t ever, according to anybody I’ve ever spoken to, be His peers–in fact, according to the impression I get, we can’t ever be more to Him, in intelligence, virtue and everything else, be closer to Him than, say–bacteria are to us, if that. So…why?

**I think the best answer I have found is he loves us…I think St. Catherine of Siena says it best…just a note…she is a doctrate of the church…here is what she says…

Dear Lord, it seems that you are so madly in love with your creatures that you could not live without us. So you created; and then, when we turned away from you, you redeemed us. Yet, you are God, and so have no need of us. Your greatness is made no greater by your creation; your power is made no stronger by our redemption. You have no duty to care for us, no debt to repay us. It is love, and love alone, which moves you.

He made us because he loves us and he wants us to love him and be able to be in his presence forever…

stormy**

Yes, I see in the description that there might be something in it for us, but what’s in it for Him?

 

[Robert_in_SD]

Sure. You stated the following, a portion of which I agree with:

Michael the Archangel was a warrior who led the battle which ended in tossing Lucifer and his followers out of heaven and into hell. If we follow your line of thought and accept that Michael became “incarnate” in the person of Adam we see that he then disobeyed God, choosing sin over the will of God. Not the best example to give his posterity and certainly not a good steward. When we choose sin, we collaborate with the enemy. In this case Michael would have had to collaborate with the very enemy he was fighting against.

Interesting point that I had not considered. Mormon reasoning sort of falls apart if you look too closely at it. That’s been my experience anyway.

I don’t think you can reason with Mormons who *want *to believe their church’s teaching.

Peace,
Robert

 

[RebeccaJ]

Yes, I see in the description that there might be something in it for us, but what’s in it for Him?

This is a very sad way to think of God’s Love. ie, He must love us because there’s something “in it for Him”.
*
We have come to know and to believe in the love God has for us. God is love, and whoever remains in love remains in God and God in him.*

And, the opposite is true. If we follow God only out of a desire for what’s in it for us, then this is not love.

 

[dianaiad]

This is a very sad way to think of God’s Love. ie, He must love us because there’s something “in it for Him”.
*
We have come to know and to believe in the love God has for us. God is love*, and whoever remains in love remains in God and God in him.

And, the opposite is true. If we follow God only out of a desire for what’s in it for us, then this is not love.

This wasn’t an accusation, Rebecca. It was a question…and of course there is 'something in it for Him," else He wouldn’t have created all things in the first place. He had a reason for doing so.

…and frankly, I don’t buy the 'because God is Love" bit. I keep thinking…well, if God is Love, and He wanted/needed someone to love and to love Him, why in the name of all that is wonderful did He pick US? There isn’t a one of us who is worthy to be with Him…and He deliberately created us this way?

Please be clear–the biggest reason I AM LDS is because I have an understanding of His purpose for us that isn’t even remotely the description I have given you. I am describing my reaction to what other Christians tell ME about why God created all things, including us. It’s a logical disconnect for me that just, doesn’t, work.

…and Rebecca, since you used to BE LDS, you know better than to make the comment you just did; if you don’t, then you really need to stop teaching others about our beliefs, because this one is pretty darned basic. You know, the part about us being, quite literally, God’s children? Puts a whole new spin on the whole reason thing, y’know.

 

[ParkerD]

Interesting point that I had not considered. Mormon reasoning sort of falls apart if you look too closely at it. That’s been my experience anyway.

I don’t think you can reason with Mormons who *want *to believe their church’s teaching.

Peace,
Robert

Robert,
Of course it’s been your experience that the reasoning is going to fall apart (from your mind’s perspective) when the reasoning is based directly on the Bible itself plus revelation, whereas your reasoning is based on “reasoning” alone, apart from the Bible and apart from revelation.

As I noted before, Adam had more than one commandment in the situation he was in in the Garden of Eden. He didn’t “choose sin over the will of God.” The “will of God” was expressed directly in what he said he did–he chose to remain with Eve. It says so right there in Genesis, for all to see who care to read the words.

Peace, yes.

 

[RebeccaJ]

This wasn’t an accusation, Rebecca. It was a question…and of course there is 'something in it for Him," else He wouldn’t have created all things in the first place. He had a reason for doing so.

…and frankly, I don’t buy the 'because God is Love" bit. I keep thinking…well, if God is Love, and He wanted/needed someone to love and to love Him, why in the name of all that is wonderful did He pick US? There isn’t a one of us who is worthy to be with Him…and He deliberately created us this way?

Please be clear–the biggest reason I AM LDS is because I have an understanding of His purpose for us that isn’t even remotely the description I have given you. I am describing my reaction to what other Christians tell ME about why God created all things, including us. It’s a logical disconnect for me that just, doesn’t, work.

…and Rebecca, since you used to BE LDS, you know better than to make the comment you just did; if you don’t, then you really need to stop teaching others about our beliefs, because this one is pretty darned basic. You know, the part about us being, quite literally, God’s children? Puts a whole new spin on the whole reason thing, y’know.

Yes Diana, I understand it is difficult to accept that God loves you, unconditionally, nothing to figure out, “what’s in it for Him”. This is Truth of Christ Crucified. His Love manifest for all, and who in this world is worthy of this?

As a friend of mine says, “God loves you, get over it.”

As for what I experienced as a Mormon. No, I can’t say I ever knew God’s love as a Mormon. That is my honest experience.

When I see statements that Mormons make here about what this life is about and for, and that it is some sort of exchange, even planned out to be an exchange before the world was made…well, I still see that the god of Mormonisn is not love. He’s a broker, and is looking to expand his power by “doing things”. Creating us, being one of those things.

This sort of view of God is foreign to all of Christianity.

 

[ParkerD]

As for what I experienced as a Mormon. No, I can’t say I ever knew God’s love as a Mormon. That is my honest experience.

RJ,
If you think that is the fault of the religion, then I suppose that you have found out that God loves you after all, and loved you before you changed religions. To blame that situation from your childhood on the religion is evidence of not understanding His love during your childhood, since God’s love (as it seems you have figured out) is not based on the religion of a person, nor ever was.

 

[RebeccaJ]

RJ,
If you think that is the fault of the religion, then I suppose that you have found out that God loves you after all, and loved you before you changed religions. To blame that situation from your childhood on the religion is evidence of not understanding His love during your childhood, since God’s love (as it seems you have figured out) is not based on the religion of a person, nor ever was.

Indeed. I understand now that even in my atheist years, God’s love was there.

Mormonism does not teach this. It teaches quite the opposite. Which I think you can see, is a lie.

 

[dianaiad]

Yes Diana, I understand it is difficult to accept that God loves you, unconditionally, nothing to figure out, “what’s in it for Him”. This is Truth of Christ Crucified. His Love manifest for all, and who in this world is worthy of this?

As a friend of mine says, “God loves you, get over it.”

As for what I experienced as a Mormon. No, I can’t say I ever knew God’s love as a Mormon. That is my honest experience.

When I see statements that Mormons make here about what this life is about and for, and that it is some sort of exchange, even planned out to be an exchange before the world was made…well, I still see that the god of Mormonisn is not love. He’s a broker, and is looking to expand his power by “doing things”. Creating us, being one of those things.

This sort of view of God is foreign to all of Christianity.

Is a mother’s love for her child an 'exchange," Rebecca? A father’s love?

 

[dianaiad]

Indeed. I understand now that even in my atheist years, God’s love was there.

Mormonism does not teach this. It teaches quite the opposite. Which I think you can see, is a lie.

No, Rebecca, Mormonism does not teach ‘the opposite.’

My comments are not referring to what I believe, or to what MOrmonism teaches…and I’m sure you know that.

They were commenting on the perception I keep getting of what others tell me regarding what THEY think the reason is for creation…and just as those same Christians keep telling me how ‘illogical’ Mormonism is, I am telling you–the reasoning that I am being offered instead is really strange to me.

 

[ParkerD]

Indeed. I understand now that even in my atheist years, God’s love was there.

Mormonism does not teach this.

RJ,
It taught “God’s love is there always” but you certainly could have missed that–perhaps it was not emphasized enough, or perhaps a home-life situation precluded understanding the message.

Here is part of great recent conference talk by President Dieter Uchtdorf, who grew up in war-torn Germany:

“Why Does Heavenly Father Love Us?
Think of the purest, most all-consuming love you can imagine. Now multiply that love by an infinite amount—that is the measure of God’s love for you.
God does not look on the outward appearance. I believe that He doesn’t care one bit if we live in a castle or a cottage, if we are handsome or homely, if we are famous or forgotten. Though we are incomplete, God loves us completely. Though we are imperfect, He loves us perfectly. Though we may feel lost and without compass, God’s love encompasses us completely.
He loves us because He is filled with an infinite measure of holy, pure, and indescribable love. We are important to God not because of our résumé but because we are His children. He loves every one of us, even those who are flawed, rejected, awkward, sorrowful, or broken. God’s love is so great that He loves even the proud, the selfish, the arrogant, and the wicked.
What this means is that, regardless of our current state, there is hope for us. No matter our distress, no matter our sorrow, no matter our mistakes, our infinitely compassionate Heavenly Father desires that we draw near to Him so that He can draw near to us.”

Source:
lds.org/conference/talk/display/0,5232,23-1-1117-7,00.html

But sometimes a person doesn’t listen to that kind of a message, if they’re hurting inside or harboring past hurts. It happens. I am certainly glad you feel God’s love now in your life.

Peace to you and all.

 

[rmcmullan]

Jesus gave the keys of the Kingdom to Peter.

This Mormon teaching seems to be a direct effort to contradict Catholic teaching and scripture.

Do you agree that Jesus gave the keys to Peter? If so, what does this mean to Mormons?

You’re right, the Mormon and Catholic teachings do not agree at all. From the Pearl of Great Price we are taught that the Priesthood was given to man (Adam) from the very start. True, Peter was also given priesthood keys but it wasn’t for the first time.

The concept of church and priesthood are different. I believe Catholic teaching is that all came into being during Jesus’ ministry. Our concept is that Man and God have always worked together and that all the ancient prophets and Biblical figures held the priesthood.