Mormons: What does it mean that Michael holds the keys of Salvation?

[SteveVH]

To imply that one does not agree with illogical reasoning in the dogma because they are too stupid or not enlightened enough to understand is a classic tactic of cults.

It is amazing how deeply one can be sucked into something. :hypno:

I’ve learned not to get too rattled by this type of comment. When there is no explanation to be given the only option left is to claim that I am not wise enough to grasp it, but apparently he is.

Its really not a problem. I like Parker and will assume his comment was born out of the frustration that I will not buy into his particular interpretation. I’ve said some things on this forum that I regret as well, and really, out of fairness, I have no choice but to cut him some slack.

 

[zaffiroborant]

Rebecca, Is this a trick question?

• Christ’s atonement makes it possible
• repentance, prayer, and forgiving those who sin against us make it happen

Could you expand on on repentance?

 

[KathleenGee]

Going back to Michael…my progression was to this that God made each one of us with perfect love and we were given free will.

Meaning, we can choose not to love God back…His gamble…but it makes life interesting, challenging…

God made each person and angel unique. I do not understand, with the universe so big, that God made Michael change his persona to something else. God, I believe, simply created another person…because He loves, His love is perfect, and His creature is completed…not in a progression to evolve into something else…

We can say that about the whole in evolution, but when it comes to individual creatures, I believe we were made whole, unique, and set from God’ loving will.

And what is fascinating is that the Son of Man, the Lord’s favored name of Himself, rather than the Son of God, came to be united with us…He joining to our humanity, we to His divinity…God among us…

So to imply what do we do with God’s love…He doesn’t need us, but He created us out of love, and with Him, not only is life fascinating and rewarding…on the journey…but that then we become signs - prophet, anointed, and of a royal race.

If we do not live out this faith, even though we have all the info, then our beliefs do indeed become trite and meaningless, cliched.

“Whoever loses himself for My sake…”

 

[dianaiad]

Are you suggesting that, being literally God’s children we will one day grow up into literally gods ourselves, and therefore finally be worthy of his love?

Wow, that’s quite a question. Too many parts to it. We do believe that we are indeed, quite literally, God’s children. This is true. What we will be when we ‘grow up’? Well, the process of ‘deification’ is one that has beein under discussion in Christianity for a very, very long time. What we are TOLD is that (from the bible…) we can be ‘heirs and joint-heirs’ with Christ, and have everything He does. What that means–well, personally, I don’t know. I think that it’s far more than simply sitting around heaven worshipping HIm, though.

As for the second part of your question, where did the 'finally worthy of his love" come from? You never got that one from me. Love that has to be given only to the worthy isn’t love, is it? Tell me, do you love your children only when they are ‘worthy’ of it? You love your children because…you love your children. You parent them. You protect, serve and teach them, and that is why you love them.

They do not have to prove worthy of your love in order to recieve it, do they? If this is true of mere humans, how much more must it be true of God the Father? What man among you, who, if his son asks for bread, would give him a stone? (you know the rest of that one.)

 

[dianaiad]

You’ve lost me.

What I was doing was reacting to this often expressed view that "God is love,’ and “He Created us because He…just did.” It is a perception of a logical disconnect that leaves me lost. I know that this isn’t a description of anybody’s particular beliefs, but it certainly is a description of what most of those explanations for why God created us does to me.

…it leaves me, frankly, with the question absolutely unanswered. Or rather, it leaves me with the impression that those who try to explain it to me don’t know the answer, or are happy with a non-answer. Could just be a communication glitch…but it doesn’t make a whole lot of sense to me.

 

[dianaiad]

Diana and ParkerD,

We’ve had this conversation before.

Mormon teaching is that you have to be worthy of God’s love. Christian teaching is that it is never possible to worthy of something so great.

We teach…and so do Catholics as far as I am aware, that you should TRY to be worthy–or rather, “if ye love me, keep my commandments.” As far as I am aware, neither one of us is exactly sola fidean…we are not ‘name it and claim it’ people.

Unless Catholicism has changed recently, and you have come to believe that ‘once saved, always saved’ is a valid concept?

However, this is NOT the same thing as saying that you have to be worthy before God will love you. He loves us, period, I imagine that He loves even His erring son Lucifer. It’s just that the vast majority of us break His heart when we screw up.

 

[dianaiad]

That is because that is Catholic teaching.

How remarkable a coincidence, Rebecca. That is a “Mormon” teaching, too!

 

[SnakeMauler]

This just sound like a big scam to anthromorphize angels and God and turn religion into a Lord of the Rings book.

 

[flyonthewall]

This just sound like a big scam to anthromorphize angels and God and turn religion into a Lord of the Rings book.

Anthropomorphize God? As I read the Bible, we were made in His image, not the other way round.
Angels are messengers. Messenger is a positon or title, not a species.
Where is it written that angels are a different species?

 

[KathleenGee]

CC329…Angel is the name of their office, not nature …which is spirit…servants and messengers of God…always behold the face of My father who is in heaven…’

Angels are purely spiritual creatures who have intelligence and will; they are personal and immortal creatures, surpassing in perfection all visible creatures, a the s plendor of their glory bears witness. Catholic Catechism 330.

What I share here is what I learned in Catholic gradeschool by the nuns…

CC338…Nothing exists that does not owe its existence to God the Creator…the world drawn out of nothingness…

Ah Ha…here it is: CC339: Each creature possesses its own particular goodness and perfection. For each one of the works of the ‘six days’ it is said: “And God saw that it was good.” By the very nature of creation, material being is endowed with its own stability, truth, and excellence, its own order and laws. Each of the various creatures, willed in its own being, reflects in its own way a ray of God’s infinite wisdom and goodness. Man must therefore respect the particular goodness of every creature, to avoid any disordered use of things which would be in contempt of the Creator and would bring disastrous consequences for human beings and their environment.

I cannot see how the Lord would create a creature then have it transformed into another person…if I understand it right regarding Michael and his changing charism.

 

[RebeccaJ]

What I was doing was reacting to this often expressed view that "God is love,’ and “He Created us because He…just did.” It is a perception of a logical disconnect that leaves me lost. I know that this isn’t a description of anybody’s particular beliefs, but it certainly is a description of what most of those explanations for why God created us does to me.

…it leaves me, frankly, with the question absolutely unanswered. Or rather, it leaves me with the impression that those who try to explain it to me don’t know the answer, or are happy with a non-answer. Could just be a communication glitch…but it doesn’t make a whole lot of sense to me.

I guess I don’t understand the disconnect. Why is not logical that God created us because He wanted to share His goodness and glory?

For this and our Salvation, we praise Him.

 

[zaffiroborant]

Rebecca, sorry for missing the prior conversation. I never knew Catholic teaching was the above?

Remindes me of a sunday school teacher who told students

1. Parents love good children more than their “less good” children.
2. God loves righteous children more than He loves the unrighteous ones.
3. God knows children who pray better than children who don’t pray
4. The reason you should pray regularly is so when you really need something, God will listen to you quicker (If you haven’t been praying, He “lets the phone ring longer”)

I thought this teacher had it wrong and God loved us completely, despite our failings. I always thought his love was unconditional and not about ‘being worthy’

Odd, a few hours before you posted the above, someone on MADB posted the following about an LDS Sunday school teacher.
MADB Poster:

Posted 21 hours ago(as of 23:06 9/2210)
A Sunday School teacher of 14 year olds taught several absolutrely wrong ideas to my granddaughter and her friends.

1. Parents love good children more than they love their “less good” children.
2. Heavenly Father loves His righteous children more than He loves the unrighteous ones.
3. Heavenly Father knows His children who pray better than He knows His children who don’t pray
4. The reason you should pray regularly is so when you really need something, Heavenly Father will listen to you quicker. If you haven’t been praying, He “lets the phone ring longer” before He answers.

Fortunately, my granddaughter went to her mother with questions because she just didn’t feel right about these ideas.

I am assuming that these 4 concepts are acknowledged to be false doctrine. My questions is what do you do?

1. Do you go to the teacher, and tell him that he was off base. Nicely, of course.
2. Do you go to the bishop?
3. Do you correct this in the mind of your child, and figure other parents can take care of their own kids?
4. Do you do nothing, because after all, the teacher was called by inspiration.
5. Something else?

 

[RebeccaJ]

Odd, a few hours before you posted the above, someone on MADB posted the following about an LDS Sunday school teacher.

Yes, that is the sort of thing I was taught. It is good to see a LDS member finding someone teaching these sort of things to their daughter something to be concerned about.

I’ll have to mosey on over there and see what the mormon posters have to say.

 

[flyonthewall]

CC329…Angel is the name of their office, not nature …which is spirit…servants and messengers of God…always behold the face of My father who is in heaven…’

Angels are purely spiritual creatures who have intelligence and will; they are personal and immortal creatures, surpassing in perfection all visible creatures, a the s plendor of their glory bears witness. Catholic Catechism 330.

What I share here is what I learned in Catholic gradeschool by the nuns…

CC338…Nothing exists that does not owe its existence to God the Creator…the world drawn out of nothingness…

Ah Ha…here it is: CC339: Each creature possesses its own particular goodness and perfection. For each one of the works of the ‘six days’ it is said: “And God saw that it was good.” By the very nature of creation, material being is endowed with its own stability, truth, and excellence, its own order and laws. Each of the various creatures, willed in its own being, reflects in its own way a ray of God’s infinite wisdom and goodness. Man must therefore respect the particular goodness of every creature, to avoid any disordered use of things which would be in contempt of the Creator and would bring disastrous consequences for human beings and their environment.

I cannot see how the Lord would create a creature then have it transformed into another person…if I understand it right regarding Michael and his changing charism.

Thank you Kathleen. However this looks like it is from Catholic teachings…where did the teachings come from? I mean is there a scriptural reference that addresses this?

The reason that you see this as a creature changing into another creature, is your filter or point of reference.
To LDS, angels and Man are the same creature, either pre or post mortal.

 

[RebeccaJ]

“What is man that you should care for him? You have made him little less than the angels, and crowned him with glory and honor. You have given him rule over the works of your hands, putting all things under his feet” (Ps. 8:5-7)

To LDS, angels and Man are the same creature, either pre or post mortal.

So LDS believe man was made a little less than himself?

I’d say the scriptural reference needs to be provided that humans are angels incarnate.

 

[KathleenGee]

Flyonthewall,

CC is the Catholic Catechism.

329 is drawn from St. Augustine…the other part…‘they always behold the face of the Father…’ comes from Christ Mt 18:10…330…spiritual creatures having intelligence…comes from Pius XII, Humani Generis, an encyclical; DS 3891; Luke 20-36; Dan 10-9-12.

338…Nothing exists that does not owe its existence to God…St. Augustine, De Genesi adv. Man, 1,2, 4; PL Patrologia Graeca 1841-1855.

339,each creature possesses it own particular goodness and perfection…Guadium et Spes 36

Faith and reason go together.

 

[KathleenGee]

CC156…In regards to faith and reason, ‘faith is by no means a blind impulse of the mind.’

CC159 Faith and science…“Though faith is above reason, there can never by any real discrepancy between faith and reason. Since the same God who reveals mysteries and infuses faith has bestowed the light of reaon on the human mind, God cannot deny himself, nor can truth ever contradict truth.”…Dei Filius 4: DS 3017.

‘Consequently, methodical research in all branches of knowledge, provided it is carried out in a truly scientific manner and does not override moral laws, can never conflict with the faith, because the things of the world and the things of faith derive from the same God. The humble and persevering investigator of the secrets of nature is being led, as it were, by the hand of God in spite of himself, for it is God, the conservor of all things, who made them what they are.’ Guadium et spes

The history of the salvation of the Jews has been contained for over 5,600 years…and we must continue their understanding of St. Michael and the nature he was uniquely given. The same goes for Lucifer/Satan, the brightest of all angels and Adam.

 

[ParkerD]

“What is man that you should care for him? You have made him little less than the angels, and crowned him with glory and honor. You have given him rule over the works of your hands, putting all things under his feet” (Ps. 8:5-7)

So LDS believe man was made a little less than himself?

I’d say the scriptural reference needs to be provided that humans are angels incarnate.

RJ,
Here is a fuller scriptural citation to clarify that Psalm:

Hebrews 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?
5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.
6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?
7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

That would make humankind in “pretty good” company to be described as “a little lower than the angels”.

The angels, one clearly can discern from the scriptures, are messengers of God and thus can be in His presence. That does not mean they can’t come to the earth as a human being at some point in time.

Here are the verses you asked for in your last sentence:

Revelation 19: 9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Peace to all readers here. I’m sure Adam looks with love on his posterity and understands with benevolence, just as a grandfather would in the spirit of forgiveness, when a portion of that posterity views him as a caricature with no compassion for Eve and with scorn for the choice he made in her support.

 

[RebeccaJ]

ParkerD, Jesus was made a little lower than the angels when He (GOD) became man. Jesus was born on the Virgin Mary. What angel has ever been born?

None of that scripture says angels became incarnate as God (Jesus) became incarnate.

So no, and absolutely no, YOU ARE NOT GOD INCARNATE.

Angels can appear to a human in any form, including a human, but they are still NOT human.

PS: No one looks on Adam with scorn. Neither do we hide sin and call it “good”.

 

[RebeccaJ]

that should read “Jesus was born of the Virgin Mary”, not on her.

Also ParkerD, angels are spirits, when they appear to deliver a message they appear as adult humans, and then they disappear…because we cannot see the unseen.

In visions they are seen in much different forms than human. Winged creatures, of different types and functions, such as the seraphim who are six-winged and stand at God’s thrown, forever in His gaze and forever singing in praise, “Holy, Holy, Holy”.