Mormons; when and why did Jesus come to America?

[TOmNossor]

Plodding On!

TOmNossor:
Catholics simply must believe:
That God desires to make men gods.
No, because it is irrational.
The idea that God acted in history “to make men gods” is part of Catholic theology. If it is “irrational” and rationality is important, then Catholicism does not work.

That being said, I do not see what is irrational about God desiring to make men gods. I think what is going on here is that there are underlying assumptions that are not being explored.
So, why does God desiring to make men gods lead you to the charge of “it is irrational?”

Charity, TOm

 

[ronin67]

zerinus - Thank you. As always, more questions!

How many came with Nephi and his family to the Americas?
How did they travel?
Where in the Americas did they reside?
What type of dwellings did they live in?
Where are their descendants today?
What language did they speak?
Where did they get their supplies? Did they trade with others?
Where else can one learn about these people?
How long after arriving in the Americas did the first battle begin?
Were they farmers or hunters/gatherers?

I have quite a few Mormon friends and the big question I have proposed to them (which they have never given me an answer). When Joesph Smith had this visitation from Christ and God (thus receiving this revelation of the book of Mormon), did he test the spirits as I John dictates he should do? Clarification on this issue has never been addressed. Also, the non-acceptance of the God-Head by the Mormon church is disturbing. Scripture says this to be the case, yet why does the LDS not accept this? Puzzling to say the least.

Take Care and May God Bless!

Ed

 

[Justin1982]

I’m wondering if your debate is somewhat of an argument in wording. LDS belief seems to translate Catholic belief into God makes us gods, when Catholic teaching from my understanding is that you inherently have an eternal soul and dependent upon the life you lead is whether or not the soul spends eternity in Heaven or Hell. So if by going to Heaven you translate making a god than I suppose in a screwed manner you are correct. Essentially in my head it is an argument of semantics when you look at where both parties are coming from.

 

[TOmNossor]

I have quite a few Mormon friends and the big question I have proposed to them (which they have never given me an answer). When Joesph Smith had this visitation from Christ and God (thus receiving this revelation of the book of Mormon), did he test the spirits as

I John dictates he should do? Clarification on this issue has never been addressed.
I assume you primarily mean 1 John 4.
I know of no tidbit from history where we read of Joseph saying, “I tested that spirit using 1 John 4.” That being said, I know of nothing from the first vision or Moroni’s later visitation that would be remotely concerning to someone who had 1 John 4 in their minds. LDS believe that Christ came in the flesh and ….

Also, the non-acceptance of the God-Head by the Mormon church is disturbing. Scripture says this to be the case, yet why does the LDS not accept this? Puzzling to say the least.

It is the metaphysical construct of the Trinity that is largely rejected by LDS scholar, authority, and individual.
The Bible IMO is quite clear that God is one and God is three. The most Biblical light shed upon this truth IMO is contained within Christ’s High Priestly prayer (John 17). What the Bible does not talk about is oneness of substance or the philosophical constructs defined at Nicea. In fact, Athanasius’s party was specifically opposed to a scripture only definition of HOW Christ was fully God.

So, LDS believe that Jesus Christ is God in the flesh. We believe there is one God. The most simplistic expression of this oneness is the oneness suggested in John 17, but as a Social Trinitarian my concept of oneness is augmented from your chapter 1 John 4. God is love.

Anyway, I think it is a mistake to believe that the Trinity as defined at Nicea is explicitly present within the Bible. Many pre-Nicene Fathers didn’t speak with an orthodox voice and yet they had the Bible. I think it is also a mistake to believe that the CoJCoLDS has somehow rejected God’s tri-unity.
Charity, TOm

 

[TOmNossor]

So if by going to Heaven you translate making a god than I suppose in a screwed manner you are correct.

My point has been that “to make men gods” is the language of volumes of ECFs. And more important for the developed Catholic Church, “to make men gods” is the language of the current CCC. If you grew up on the Baltimore Catechism, I am fairly certain “to make men gods” would sound like it was “a screwed manner,” but it is part of the current CCC.
Charity, TOm

 

[Stephen168]

I think what is going on here is that there are underlying assumptions that are not being explored

You are correct and it has already be presented.

The difference between LDS and Catholicism is of course in what it means to “become God”.

You seem to assume the meaning between Catholic and Mormons are the same. After reading the King Follet discourse, I assume they are not.

 

[Answersplease]

The idea that God acted in history “to make men gods” is part of Catholic theology. If it is “irrational” and rationality is important, then perhaps you should become a LDS like me!

Answersplease:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=2363920&postcount=9

Banned Topics List:

8.) Proselytizing Catholics or encouraging them to leave the Church

 

[chris2009]

I’ve conducted much research into LDS theology and would really like to concentrate on this topic.

I’d like to turn my attention to the LDS theology/belief that Jesus Christ Himself came to America shortly after His death.

I intend to learn exactly when and why He went there, what was the importance of His appearance and message and precisely what He intended to come of it in the future or even indeed just at that time.

In advance; Thankyou for your much desired (name removed by moderator)ut.

Very interesting post. The Bible mentions this branch of Israel in America many times. Jesus Christ himself said to the disciples in Jerusalem,

“14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.” (John 10:14-16)

Some supposed these “other sheep” to be the Gentiles that later received the gospel after the death of the Savior. However, this cannot be true because the Gentiles never saw Jesus or heard His voice. Jesus made this clear to the people in America when He visited them after His resurrection in a very powerful way.

“12 Ye are my disciples; and ye are a light unto this people, who are a remnant of the house of Joseph.
13 And behold, this is the land of your inheritance; and the Father hath given it unto you.
14 And not at any time hath the Father given me commandment that I should tell it unto your brethren at Jerusalem.
15 Neither at any time hath the Father given me commandment that I should tell unto them concerning the other tribes of the house of Israel, whom the Father hath led away out of the land.
16 This much did the Father command me, that I should tell unto them:
17 That other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
18 And now, because of stiffneckedness and unbelief they understood not my word; therefore I was commanded to say no more of the Father concerning this thing unto them.
19 But, verily, I say unto you that the Father hath commanded me, and I tell it unto you, that ye were separated from among them because of their iniquity; therefore it is because of their iniquity that they know not of you.
20 And verily, I say unto you again that the other tribes hath the Father separated from them; and it is because of their iniquity that they know not of them.
21 And verily I say unto you, that ye are they of whom I said: Other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
22 And they understood me not, for they supposed it had been the Gentiles; for they understood not that the Gentiles should be converted through their preaching.
23 And they understood me not that I said they shall hear my voice; and they understood me not that the Gentiles should not at any time hear my voice—that I should not manifest myself unto them save it were by the Holy Ghost.
24 But behold, ye have both heard my voice, and seen me; and ye are my sheep, and ye are numbered among those whom the Father hath given me.” (3 Nephi 15:12-24)

After reading this from the Book of Mormon, I’ll let you judge whether these are the words of a con artist or the words of the Savior Himself. I for one, am able to recognize the voice of the Savior.

 

[chris2009]

Note that there is absolutely nothing in the Bible (or in Catholic tradition) about an appearance of Jesus in the Americas. This reference is solely to the Book of Mormon, which speaks of a lost tribe of Israel that somehow made it to the Americas long ago. If you believe the Book of Mormon, you’ll believe this. If you think the Book of Mormon is a fabrication of Joseph Smith, you’ll dismiss this as a fiction. I dismiss it as a fiction.

In John 10:14-16, who are the “other sheep not of this fold” Jesus is referring to? Jesus said they will hear His voice.

In Gen 49, Jacob (Israel) blesses his 12 sons and in verse 22 blesses Joseph saying,
“22 Joseph is a fruitful bough, even a fruitful bough by a well; whose branches run over the wall:”

Joseph of Egypt had two sons – Ephraim and Manasseh. How is that fruitful? A bough is a major branch of a tree. In this case Joseph was a major branch of the 12 tribes of Israel. Don’t forget Joseph had the birthright. His branches (or descendants) run over the wall. What is this well or wall? The Atlantic and Pacific Oceans were considered walls or barriers in those days that could not be crossed. As Joseph was led to a foreign land, so too were his descendants. They came to the Americas.

Then Jacob continues saying “The blessings of thy father have prevailed above the blessings of my progenitors unto the utmost bound of the everlasting hills: they shall be on the head of Joseph, and on the crown of the head of him that was separate from his brethren.” (Gen 49:26)

Then years later Moses gives a similar blessing in Deut 33 to each tribe. To Joseph he said,
“13 And of Joseph he said, Blessed of the Lord be his land, for the precious things of heaven, for the dew, and for the deep that coucheth beneath,
14 And for the precious fruits brought forth by the sun, and for the precious things put forth by the moon,
15 And for the chief things of the ancient mountains, and for the precious things of the lasting hills,
16 And for the precious things of the earth and fulness thereof, and for the good will of him that dwelt in the bush: let the blessing come upon the head of Joseph, and upon the top of the head of him that was separated from his brethren.
17 His glory is like the firstling of his bullock, and his horns are like the horns of unicorns: with them he shall push the people together to the ends of the earth: and they are the ten thousands of Ephraim, and they are the thousands of Manasseh.”

Blessed of the Lord be Joseph’s land? Where is Joseph’s land? Then the same phrase used by Jacob “the lasting hills” or “the everlasting hills”. Where are these “everlasting hills”? We know that Joseph’s descendants were led to the Americas. This is Joseph’s land. This is a special land. There is a mountain chain like none other in the world that starts in Alaska, travels through the Rockies, all the way down to the tip of South America. I believe these are the “everlasting hills”. This is Joseph’s land. The unicorn or ox is the symbol of Ephraim. The descendants have a special mission in the latter days to “push the people together to the ends of the earth”. This is the gathering of Israel. The spiritual and the literal gathering of Israel. It is happening right before your eyes.

 

[chris2009]

I have quite a few Mormon friends and the big question I have proposed to them (which they have never given me an answer). When Joesph Smith had this visitation from Christ and God (thus receiving this revelation of the book of Mormon), did he test the spirits as I John dictates he should do? Clarification on this issue has never been addressed. Also, the non-acceptance of the God-Head by the Mormon church is disturbing. Scripture says this to be the case, yet why does the LDS not accept this? Puzzling to say the least.

Take Care and May God Bless!

Ed

1. How does one “test the spirits” in your opinion? Joseph was clearly attacked by the adversary prior to be delivered and visited by the Father and the Son.
2. We accept the Godhead – just not in the Nicene Creed way. “We believe in God the Eternal Father, and in His Son Jesus Christ and in the Holy Ghost.” (First Article of Faith)
   The word “trinity” is not found in the entire Bible. This was a created doctrine after the death of Christ and the apostles around 325 AD. The Council of Nicea argued whether the Father and the Son were made of homoiousios (similar substance) or homoousios (same substance). The debate was large enough to get Emperor Constantine involved. By a vote of the bishops the doctrine was declared homoousios and the Nicene Creed was established. All those who would not conform were exiled and their books were burned.

As LDS, we believe the truth has been restored in the latter days through modern prophets of God. The Father and Son are “similar substance” and are two distinct and seperate personages. This goes against all “traditional Christian” doctrine that relies on the Nicene Creed which has elements of philosophy dating back to Aristotle and Plato many years prior to Jesus.

 

[TheosisM]

The word “trinity” is not found in the entire Bible.

Nor is the word “Bible” found in the Bible. A word doesn’t have to be found in the Bible for its meaning to be there (at least implicitly). Nor does the Bible itself say that everything must be found within it (which I assume LDS agree on in contrast to sola scriptura).

The Father and Son are “similar substance”…

What does that mean?

and are two distinct and seperate personages.

Trinitarians agree that the Father and the Son (and the Holy Spirit) are distinct Persons. I never understood all of the emphasis on the First Vision showing the Father and the Son as distinct Persons (as an apologetic), when Trinitarians agree that they are (in contrast to Modalists and Unitarians).

 

[chris2009]

zerinus - who were the Book of Mormon people that were of Israelite descent?

The Book of Mormon is fairly complex, showing evidence it was not written by Joseph Smith or any one man.

The people of the Bood of Mormon are as follows:

The Jaredites - This group left around 2,000-3,000 BC during the tower of Babel and were led to the Americas by the Lord. Jared and his brother led this group. Their language was not confounded which means they likely spoke the pure Adamic language. They became a great empire in the Americas and eventually destroyed themselves in battle.

The Nephites and Lamanites - This group left around 600 BC from Jerusalem. They built a ship and traveled to the Americas (we don’t know exactly where). The prophet Lehi and his family (descendants of Manasseh) and Ishmael and his family (supposed descendants of Ephraim) and Zoram made up this group. Once in the Americas, the group split following one of two brothers Nephi or Laman. These groups battled throughout the Book of Mormon. At the end of the Book of Mormon (about 400 AD) the Lamanites beat the Nephites in a massive battle. The Nephites are either killed or join the Lamanites. It is believed the American Indians are descendants of the Lamanites. Some think many Islanders (Tongan, Somoan, etc) are also descendants of the Lamanites/Nephites.

The Mulekites – Around 600 BC, the Old Testiment mentions King Zedekiah. The Babylonians attacked the southern kingdom of Israel, killed King Zedekiah’s sons and put out his eyes. The Book of Mormon says that one of the king’s sons, Mulek, escaped with others prior to the Babylonian conquering Israel. Mulek and his group came over to the Americas. Several hundred years later, they joined together with the Nephites in the land of Zarahemla and became one people.

The Bible was written by the descendants of Judah in Judah’s land. The Book of Mormon was written by the descendants of Joseph in Joseph’s land. (Ezekiel 37)

 

[chris2009]

Nor is the word “Bible” found in the Bible. A word doesn’t have to be found in the Bible for its meaning to be there (at least implicitly). Nor does the Bible itself say that everything must be found within it (which I assume LDS agree on in contrast to sola scriptura).

I agree that the Bible doesn’t contain everything that is true. But it does contain everything necessary for salvation. I’m sure you’ll agree however, that the doctrine of the trinity is something that evolved over the centuries with much debate of scholars opposed to a revelation from God to a true prophet.

What does that mean?

I’m actually using a Catholic word that isn’t really known to most LDS members. I think they whole original debate of “similar” or “same” substance was really whether the Father and Son were one God or two Gods. If they were made of “similar” substance, they were like each other, but two distince personages. If they were of the “same” substance, they were the same being. I realize trinitarians believe in three distinct beings, but at the same time believe they are literally one God. I think when the Nicene Creed evolved into the Athanasian Creed, it was decided they were both one AND three. This way everyone was happy. The Greek Philosophers and pagans had a great influence on the ideas of God during those days. Plato and Aristotle taught that God was this great essense throughout the universe. Their ideas became wrapped together with Christian doctrine.

Trinitarians agree that the Father and the Son (and the Holy Spirit) are distinct Persons. I never understood all of the emphasis on the First Vision showing the Father and the Son as distinct Persons (as an apologetic), when Trinitarians agree that they are (in contrast to Modalists and Unitarians).

LDS believe The Father, Son and Holy Ghost are one in purpose and are three distinct Gods.

From what I understand, trinitarians believe they are one personage AND three personages at the same time.

 

[chris2009]

In all honesty, it is easy to make that claim when you can make up Scripture to support what you want. For example, there is nothing in Scripture that says to use a loaf of white bread and water for sacrament. In fact, the only place you ever hear of bread and water is in prison. But, if you ask a Mormon to support it with Scripture, they say Joseph Smith got a revelation…

It is hard to argue Scripture with anyone who can make up Scripture when it pleases them.

There is also nothing in scripture that says to use a wafer for the sacrament. The Savior used unleavened bread and wine. There is also nothing in scripture that says to sprinkle or pour water for baptism – nor to baptize infants. Have you claimed to receive a revelation from God to a prophet for your church? No. You changed things without revelation.

The Lord has always worked this way and this is consistent with the Bible. Peter received a revelation to take the gospel to the Gentiles. This caused a stir among the Jewish saints, but it was a true revelation from God for their time. Jesus Christ changed the sabbath day from Saturday to Sunday after His resurrection. This was done by revelation from God to a true prophet. Jesus introduced the sacrament and did away with blood sacrafice. Again, another revelation for their day.

From the beginning of time from Adam until now, the sign of the true and living church has ALWAYS been new scripture – new revelation to a true prophet of God. The Savior’s church is a living church. God does not change.

 

[chris2009]

zerinus - Thank you. As always, more questions!

How many came with Nephi and his family to the Americas?
How did they travel?
Where in the Americas did they reside?
What type of dwellings did they live in?
Where are their descendants today?
What language did they speak?
Where did they get their supplies? Did they trade with others?
Where else can one learn about these people?
How long after arriving in the Americas did the first battle begin?
Were they farmers or hunters/gatherers?

lax16,

I think you’ll find this interesting:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quetzalcoatl

“To The Aztecs Quetzalcoatl was, as his name indicates, a feathered serpent, a flying reptile (much like a dragon), who was a boundary maker (and transgressor) between earth and sky.”

“The exact significance and attributes of Quetzalcoatl varied somewhat between civilizations and through history. Quetzalcoatl is one of the four sons of Ometecuhtli and Omecihuatl, he was often considered the god of the morning star, and his twin brother Xolotl was the evening star (Venus). As the morning star he was known by the title Tlahuizcalpantecuhtli, meaning “lord of the star of the dawn.” He was known as the inventor of books and the calendar, the giver of maize (corn) to mankind, and sometimes as a symbol of death and resurrection. Quetzalcoatl was also the patron of the priests and the title of the twin Aztec high priests.”

Cortez and Columbus are said to have been mistaken for Quetzalcoatl, the bearded white god who visited the Americas anciently with a promise he would one day return. Cortez took advantage of the legend to Moctezuma’s great disappointment.

Quetzalcoatl means feathered serpent. Feathered meaning part heavenly and serpent meaning part earthly. As we know, the Savior was born of a Heavenly Father and an earthly woman (Mary).

 

[chris2009]

Do you mean the Book of Mormon? That is not scripture any more than the Koran. Wake up! Joseph Smith was a confidence man who wanted power, money and multiple wives, so he wrote a self-serving tract to support his claims, including a lot of plagiarism from the Book of Isiah. The idea of an angel coming to him and revealing a holy book he probably stole right from the Muslims. Come to think of it, that is where he got polygamy too.

Yes, I’m sure Islam was very popular in upstate New York in the 1820’s. And if they wanted to do any research they could just get on the internet or go down to their local public library. It would have been easy to write a 521 page book containing a complex history of the ancient Americas with hundreds of Hebrew and Egyptian names and places. Be careful that you don’t make any mistakes!

Right after working on the farm, I’m sure Joseph Smith thought to himself, “I think I’ll write a 521 page book about an ancient civilazation and trick everyone. I only have a 3rd grade education and can’t even spell very well, but I’ll attempt to write this complex book at the age of 24. I’ll be careful to write differently for each prophet in the book – so there are different word patterns for each. I’ll also throw in some complex Hebrew Chiasms which won’t be discovered to exist until years after I write this book. I’ll devote my life and everything I own to this book and continue tricking others that it is true. I’ll be beaten, tarred & feathered by mobs, poisoned, falsely arrested throughout my life and thrown in prison many many times, but I’ll still keep sticking with my story. I’m sure my wife and children will support me in this. I’ll be forced from my home at gunpoint and move from Ohio to Missouri and then to Illinois. I’ll trick people to give everything they have to build up this church. I’ll be poor my entire life and constantly pursued by my enemies until finally I am killed by a mob at the age of 38 along with my older brother after once again being arrested on false charges. What a great plan!”

It appears the prophets of the New Testament would also often “plagiarize” the prophets of the Old Testament. But it appears that the angel and polygamy thing also came from prophets in the Bible. I’m not sure if you realized that Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David, Solomon and pretty much all the early Israelites all practiced pologamy by commandment from the Lord. Do you believe in all of the Bible or just part of it?

 

[chris2009]

If the Mormon god was a man on another planet, then he did not create the universe because it had already been created when he was born on that planet. Therefore, the Mormon god did not create the universe. But since Mormons still worship this god who did not create the universe, then they worship a false god because the One True God is the Creator.
It is simple logic.

Please read this scripture and tell me what you believe it means.

"32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? " (John 10:32-36)

The Jews felt Jesus was blaphemous for claiming to be the Son of God. Jesus then told them it was written in their own law that they were gods also. It was written in their law:

“1 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.” “6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.” (Psalms 82:1,6)

It is so simple for people to believe that we are children of God. If we are children of God, why is it so difficult to believe that we are gods also? We are God’s seed, His embryo. That makes us gods. Baby gods.

The scripture above is so plain, and it infuriates most Christians I show it to. They try to explain it away by saying the word “god” or “Elohim” in Hebrew has been known to be translated as “judges” before also. Yes, it is true, in two instances in the entire Bible “Elohim” is translated as “judges”. All 3,000+ other instances it is translated as “god”. Read the scriptures plainly with an open mind and it is clear what the real meaning is.

 

[chris2009]

As a child I was taught about Jesus coming to the Americas. For a child it is very intriguing. When it is told to you by those you love and trust it is also very much real. As an adult I had an encounter with this Saint of the Church.
http://www.utahmission.com/pages/cJouges_page.html

If I was to continue this belief I would have to deny this missionary, his life, his love for Jesus. His story helped lead me to my conversion to Christ’s Church. Why? It is a real story among thousands and thousands of other real stories. I was never taught about these in the Mormon faith. This is authentic history of the Americas, how Christ came to be here among us.

God Bless
Rich Horrell
www.utahmission.com
www.chooseyourcross.com

I read the story you posted. Saint Jogues sounds like an amazing man. I’m not sure if I fully understand you though. Are you saying you were raised LDS and taught the story of Christ in America and now don’t believe it? Are you saying if you continued to believe that Christ came to America that you would have to deny Saint Jogues’ mission, life and love for Jesus? Why would you have to deny his life and love for Jesus? He was a great man, I can see that. You’re not being asked to deny these things – just to build upon them. The Lord has more for us. I know that the Savoir did come to America and bless and heal the people here. I can feel the Spirit testify to me that this is true. I can also sense that this Saint was a good honest man.

 

[zaffiroborant]

I’m not sure if you realized that Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David, Solomon and pretty much all the early Israelites all practiced pologamy by commandment from the Lord. Do you believe in all of the Bible or just part of it?

Where was it commanded?

 

[Stephen168]

I’m not sure if you realized that Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David, Solomon and pretty much all the early Israelites all practiced pologamy by commandment from the Lord. Do you believe in all of the Bible or just part of it?

As a Christian, I believe what was taught by Christ.