Mormons, when did the Apostacy occur?

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Wussup, I keep hearing you chirp about your marvelous explanation about the Great Apostacy. So you “proved” it with the explanation that there wasn’t a lot of writing that survived from the 1st 2 centuries. I wonder why I am on this thread still, well I guess I started it, but I think it is to take you by the arms, shake you and say “Wake up man” (or woman). Have you ever read a real biography of Joseph Smith? Why did Joseph Smith’s wife despise him? Why did Joseph Smith get arrested? Do you know how he died? What proof is there of anything in the BoM? Have you read what many of your prophets and “apostles” and doctrines thought of blacks, jews, and native americans? How your doctrines came into being? Do you really know the story of polygamy in your church? Why is the Book of Mormon in King James English? Why was the Book of Mormon changed? Why, why, why?

This thread is officially closed!!!
 
One more thing!

I repeat- and this is important. Catholics, Mormons, Muslims, ALL listen up.

HOW did he know that the spirits were for good? Look at my other post.

People get decieved by sprits every day into thinking that they are the new light. I have addressed this. What did Joseph Smith do to test his experience? Obviously he wasdoing more than just Loving purely… should that not be an indication of the validity of his message?
I apologise if myposts delve directly inot spiritual possibilities, but the fact is, Pure love and truth CANNOT be in thesame place as deceit.

Contradictions.
 
It is very big of Zerinus to allow people to make up their own minds. The problem, of course, is that the Zerinus company is making no headway here at Catholic Answers. They are here to convert people, not, as they sometimes claim with fingers crossed, to have fun discussions about comparitive religion. If Zerinus were anything more than a little missionary, he’d spend a lot less time here. The fact that he is here all day, every day, even Sunday, when he should be in church, is testimony to his mission here, which is to convert, not merely to discuss. So, we follow Zerinus around, making sure that he doesn’t steal the silverware, or pee in the bathwater. He doesn’t like that. Too bad.
That is a case of the pot calling the kettle black. I have been posting here since September 7, and you have been posting since October 2. I have clocked up 775 posts so far, and you have clocked up 568. That is an average of 4.5 posts per day for me, and 4 posts for you. There is hardly a difference. And the reason you haven’t posted more than me is because you have nothing worth while to say. You are scraping the bottom of the barrel. Your posts are usually longer than mine, and filled with meaningless verbiage. You have very little of substance to contribute. When I post something, it is usually because I have something meaningful to say. You just don’t like me because I present valid and forceful arguments for the LDS position, and in favor of the Restoration, which you are not abele to refute. That is why you wish me to go away. Well too bad! I ain’t going nowhere! And people aren’t stupid either. They can tell the difference between my arguments and yours, and those of your ilk.

zerinus
 
Then why hasn’t it been done yet?
It has been done, but you folks don’t want to hear, and keep asking the same questions over and over again.
So my question is this, and I don’t care if it has been asked a million times before, I wish it to be answered now as simply as possible, with facts.
Why did God take the ministry away from John, after He gave the ministry to him at Pentecost?
God didn’t “take the ministry away from John”. His ministry was taken away from the people because they had apostatized, and could no longer endure or maintain his ministry and his presence among them.

zerinus
 
.

When I post something, it is usually because I have something meaningful to say.

You just don’t like me because I present valid and forceful arguments for the LDS position, and in favor of the Restoration, which you are not abele to refute.

That is why you wish me to go away.

Well too bad! I** ain’t going nowhere**!

And people aren’t stupid either. They can tell the difference between my arguments and yours, and those of your ilk.

zerinus
Finally… two things you say that are worth reading:

1- you ain’t going nowhere… this is good…because all who read your posts will see the validity ( :rolleyes: ) of LDS from your great arguments.

2- and people surely are not stupid… at least 98% of people are not.

.
 
People get decieved by sprits every day into thinking that they are the new light. I have addressed this. What did Joseph Smith do to test his experience? Obviously he wasdoing more than just Loving purely… should that not be an indication of the validity of his message?
I apologise if myposts delve directly inot spiritual possibilities, but the fact is, Pure love and truth CANNOT be in thesame place as deceit.

Contradictions.
I totally agree, Cath01. The truth of Joseph Smith can be seen in his behaviors. The polygamy alone shows us what he was all about. The way Emma was threatened with “destruction” unless she stopped complaining about his affairs with other mens’ wives, the fact that he did it in secret for so many years before finally admitting it, in the form of a “revelation” which not only permitted polygamy, but commanded it. This, and other things, show that his religion is not Christian, and cannot be held in equality with Christianity. It seems more to me like just another pagan religion.
 
That is a case of the pot calling the kettle black. I have been posting here since September 7, and you have been posting since October 2. I have clocked up 775 posts so far, and you have clocked up 568. That is an average of 4.5 posts per day for me, and 4 posts for you. There is hardly a difference. And the reason you haven’t posted more than me is because you have nothing worth while to say. You are scraping the bottom of the barrel. Your posts are usually longer than mine, and filled with meaningless verbiage. You have very little of substance to contribute. When I post something, it is usually because I have something meaningful to say. You just don’t like me because I present valid and forceful arguments for the LDS position, and in favor of the Restoration, which you are not abele to refute. That is why you wish me to go away. Well too bad! I ain’t going nowhere! And people aren’t stupid either. They can tell the difference between my arguments and yours, and those of your ilk.

zerinus
Wow. I really am feeling very noticed and appreciated this morning. Thanks, Zerinus. And to think, I do all of this while also holding down a full time, real man’s job, while you having nothing to do except wash and iron your white shirts. Not bad, if I do say so myself, and I do.

Let me just offer you condolences. I know how disappointed you must be that your “valid and forceful arguments” are having zero effect here among the people at Catholic Answers. Of course, we can’t really measure this sort of thing scientifically, since some people may be dropping in and, reading your “valid and forceful arguments,” going to the nearest Mormon tabernacle to sign in for robot duty. It’s possible. But none of them have come back to report in, so we must assume that that isn’t happening.

Hang in there, little guy. You might get one yet.
 
God didn’t “take the ministry away from John”. His ministry was taken away from the people because they had apostatized, and could no longer endure or maintain his ministry and his presence among them.
Please site book, chapter, and verse to prove this claim; otherwise, this is meaningless garbage!
 
Wow. I really am feeling very noticed and appreciated this morning. Thanks, Zerinus. And to think, I do all of this while also holding down a full time, real man’s job, while you having nothing to do except wash and iron your white shirts. Not bad, if I do say so myself, and I do.

Let me just offer you condolences. I know how disappointed you must be that your “valid and forceful arguments” are having zero effect here among the people at Catholic Answers. Of course, we can’t really measure this sort of thing scientifically, since some people may be dropping in and, reading your “valid and forceful arguments,” going to the nearest Mormon tabernacle to sign in for robot duty. It’s possible. But none of them have come back to report in, so we must assume that that isn’t happening.

Hang in there, little guy. You might get one yet.
Keep dreaming on. There is no need for me to waste any more time with that.

zerinus
 
This is what I find the most amazing about Mormons on this site. My only exposure to them had been their frequent door knocking escapades in my area. But on this site, their refusal to apply the same *‘litmus test’ *to **their own **belief system that they seem to apply to everyone else, tells me a few things. One, they are ‘in fear’ of doing so for one reason or another, dis-fellowship, being ostracized, whatever, and Two, they are extremely programmed. wssup uses a trumped up *‘developed argument’ *(two small pages in relation to the whole history of the Church) of Papal Succession to prove the claim of ‘Apostasy’???.. And yet, yet…this same examination of the *‘historical facts’ *of the Catholic Church, which he finds ‘inadequate’, is not used on his own faith. The truth is, and this is so bizarre, when you really look at it, the history of the early Church including the Papal Succession, is more tangible, well documented, read and understood, studied, and there is more evidence, real hard evidence, in the existence of tombs, archaeological inscriptions, the lists of the Roman martyrs, writings and letters, as scant as *he *claims them to be, dialog and cross reference by other writers, and on and on, Yet, there is NOT ONE SHRED OF EVIDENCE FOR ANY OF JOSEPH SMITHS CLAIMS FOR WHAT HE SAW, WHAT HE WROTE, WHAT HE CLAIMED TO FIND, NO EVIDENCE FOR A WHOLE HISTORY OF A CIVILIZATION THAT HE PROCLAIMED TO HAVE TAKEN PLACE, NONE, NOT ONE SCRAP OF PAPER, INSCRIPTION, TOMB, EXTANT STORY OUTSIDE OF HIS OWN, NOTHING, AND YET, WSSUP USES THE FACT THAT FIRST CENTURY INFORMATION IS ‘INCOMPLETE’ TO PROVE HIS POINT???. WSSUP AND ZERINUS, SHOW ME THE EVIDENCE, EVEN ON THE SMALL SCALE OF CHURCH HISTORY THAT YOU REJECT, SHOW EVEN THAT LITTLE AMOUNT OF EVIDENCE, AND I’LL BELIEVE YOU. WSSUP, YOU’RE A BLIND GUIDE. **USE THE SAME CRITERIA **THAT YOU USE ON EARLY CHURCH HISTORY ON YOUR OWN CHURCH AND TELL ME WHAT YOU FIND. You find, feelings…You want to judge historical evidence, judge your own. I’m still waiting for you to tell me how the ‘Catholic Church’ during and after Peter was a different chruch than the *‘your words’ *Early Church. I’m still waiting for the evidence, any, you can show me for all Joesph Smiths claims. You said you proved Apostasy, you showed hard evidence. All you’ve managed to do, was to show, was what real evidence the Catholic Church has, and how your church has absolutely none. Show me, and I’ll belive, otherwise, your just lier living a lie.
 
Keep dreaming on. There is no need for me to waste any more time with that.

zerinus
I’ve got an idea. For the past few months, we’ve seen a lot of Zerinus the Missionary. Yet, I’ve not seen him share one iota of his personal testimony. Most of the rest of us have shared ours. We’ve given short descriptions of our encounters with God, the God who meets us in our hearts and informs us about himself, and who leads us in our lives towards submission and sanctification. But Zerinus has not, or, if he has, I’ve missed it.

I wonder if Zerinus would want to share some of what God has done, and is doing, in his life. I know how much Mormons love to share their testimonies, as I’ve seen and heard quite a few. Maybe Zerinus would seem to us less metallic if he actually opened up a little and told us a story or two about how God has worked a miracle of renovation and restoration in his own life.
 
I’ve got an idea. For the past few months, we’ve seen a lot of Zerinus the Missionary. Yet, I’ve not seen him share one iota of his personal testimony. Most of the rest of us have shared ours. We’ve given short descriptions of our encounters with God, the God who meets us in our hearts and informs us about himself, and who leads us in our lives towards submission and sanctification. But Zerinus has not, or, if he has, I’ve missed it.

I wonder if Zerinus would want to share some of what God has done, and is doing, in his life. I know how much Mormons love to share their testimonies, as I’ve seen and heard quite a few. Maybe Zerinus would seem to us less metallic if he actually opened up a little and told us a story or two about how God has worked a miracle of renovation and restoration in his own life.
LOL! If I “bore my testimony,” then I would be accused of “testimony bearing” and “proselytizing” instead of engaging in meaningful debate. My testimony, however, comes through in the conviction of my beliefs, which is manifest in my posts. I don’t need to “bear my testimony”. The real reason why you are asking that, though, is because you want to figure out who I am! LOL! Well, I ani’t gona tell you! 😃

zerinus
 
Zerinus, do you think you are a positive influence in this forum? Frankly, you seem to be bothered by everyone who questions you. I’m sure you talked about this in some other forum though. Why are you you here exactly? To find out the truth?
 
LOL! If I “bore my testimony,” then I would be accused of “testimony bearing” and “proselytizing” instead of engaging in meaningful debate. My testimony, however, comes through in the conviction of my beliefs, which is manifest in my posts. I don’t need to “bear my testimony”. The real reason why you are asking that, though, is because you want to figure out who I am! LOL! Well, I ani’t gona tell you! 😃

zerinus
That’s kind of what I figured. The fact is, you have no testimony of God working in your life. You are what you appear to be, which is someone promoting a religion set-up. You’re all loaded up with facts and figures (most of them inaccurate, BTW) but you have no experience of God in your heart. If you did, you wouldn’t have to be urged to share it, and you certainly wouldn’t shy away from it when urged to do so. I feel really bad for you, Z. There are few things in life more pathetic and sorrowful than a man selling religion, who does not know God deep down in his heart, where God wants to live.

And BTW that is a pretty lame dodge, what you said about us wanting to figure out who you are. No. If you had God in your heart, you’d want to sing to the world how wonderful it is, and you wouldn’t care if anyone knew who you were.
 
That’s kind of what I figured. The fact is, you have no testimony of God working in your life. You are what you appear to be, which is someone promoting a religion set-up. You’re all loaded up with facts and figures (most of them inaccurate, BTW) but you have no experience of God in your heart. If you did, you wouldn’t have to be urged to share it, and you certainly wouldn’t shy away from it when urged to do so. I feel really bad for you, Z. There are few things in life more pathetic and sorrowful than a man selling religion, who does not know God deep down in his heart, where God wants to live.

And BTW that is a pretty lame dodge, what you said about us wanting to figure out who you are. No. If you had God in your heart, you’d want to sing to the world how wonderful it is, and you wouldn’t care if anyone knew who you were.
LOL! Been there, done that. You are wasting your time my friend. Have a nice day.

zerinus
 
If you had God in your heart, you’d want to sing to the world how wonderful it is, and you wouldn’t care if anyone knew who you were.
Amen to that, my New Mexican brother.

If Zerinus *knew *God, *loved *God and wanted to tell *others *about God, he wouldn’t be spending ALL his time telling us how evil and damned we are because we are not in the Mormon church.

He would be telling us what the Mormon church does that’s DIFFERENT and BETTER in worshipping God and praising Him and doing His work.

Oh well, at least he’s still lurking here abouts.

Pax Christi
 
Oh well, at least he’s still lurking here abouts.

Pax Christi
So true. That Zerinus crew better watch out. They might just be on the road to Damascus. They’re hanging out in some pretty dangerous territory for Mormons. Frankly, I think I admire them for sticking to it. The JWs sure don’t linger. I see rmcmullen has returned today, on another thread. They can’t stay away for long, can they?
 
So true. That Zerinus crew better watch out. They might just be on the road to Damascus. They’re hanging out in some pretty dangerous territory for Mormons. Frankly, I think I admire them for sticking to it. The JWs sure don’t linger. I see rmcmullen has returned today, on another thread. They can’t stay away for long, can they?
I only stay to bug you! 😃

zerinus
 
I may have mentioned earlier:
The Catholic Faith is about being the hands and feet of Jesus in everything we do. We are caled to love like Jesus.

THE MOMENT we are dragged into a fight… the enrgy is turned in towards the fight. That is happening here. When it is turned in towards the fight, then that takes away love that could br spread to others.

I respect the decisions of the Mormons. I can only hold the truth outwards to them so that they may experience it.
Should they choose not to reach for it, then there is nothing that we can do in the name of Jesus’s love, other than pray for them so that they do eventually reach out and accept the truth which is being presented.

a) It cannot be forced - force is not an act of love.
b) Living Catholic means that we are called to Love. “They will know we are Christians by our love” - as Paul says (I think it was him). Trying to beat it into someone’s head (The Message of truth and love through Jesus Christ) detracts energy from spreading forth and LIVING the love as Jesus, and spreading it to all.

When a person is ready, they will come to accept truth. This doesn’t come overnight, and it certainly won’t come by a battle like this.

I am exiting this conversation on this premise.
  • I can spend my time spreading love to others instead of being glued to this computer trying to “convince” someone of something they are not willing to accept at this time.
We present the truth of facts, but we cannot force it on someone.

I encourage others to let the message of truth stand, and let our energy be focused on Love. When we get here, truth prevails.

Zerinus: I pray that you will be able to better discern a false light from the light of God. Seek council, but beware of your council’s position and evaluate that as well. The Catholic community will be there for your help and guidance if and when you eventually discover the signs of false light.

Good bye and God Bless.
 
Allow me to teach you the error of your argument…

RE: Succession. The Cult of Mary (CoM) bases its entire authority on SUCCESSION. If you cannot trace a succession of Popes, then you have no authority and hence, are apostate. In terms of the Catholic Argument:

Premise 1: The ‘true’ Church of Jesus most have authority
Premise 2: Authority is Granted by successive authoritative entities in succession
Conclusion1: The True Church will have an authority of succession from authorized entities

Premise 1: The True Church will have an authority of succession from authorized entities
Premise 2: The Catholic Church can trace the authority of the Popes to Jesus in an unbroken lineage
Conclusion: The Roman Catholic Church is the true Church

Based on the Catholic Encyclopedia, the CoM cannot trace the line of succession of Popes to Peter, so the CoM cannot logically proclaim itself authoritative based on this argument.

RE: The (single) letter of Clement is a beautiful work and Polycarp‘s writings are valuable historical evidences… However, it says nothing regarding either himself, Lineaus, or even Peter being the ‘Pope’. There is no line of succession here.

RE: “the only christian living” statement by artist3189, I don’t know if I understand the statement, but I’ll try. No, they were not the ‘only christian living’ at that time. Just the most authoritative. And yes, I think they did write more, we just don’t have it, and if we did, I don’t think they would say the Roman Catholic Church is the true Church.

RE: The question was when do Mormons think the apostasy occurred. While discussion of Joseph Smith (per Artist318) is interesting, as relating to the topic begun (and apparently officially closed) by pjs2ejs is irrelevant, this is in fact a straw man. To wit, what ANYONE did in the 1800s is not relevant to the falling away of the Christian Church.

RE: Kinsmans’ assertions…its Talmage (who was an LDS, a PhD in Geology actually) and Jonson, who was actually a Swiss Catholic. Here is an ad hominem. Even if both were LDS (Jonson died before his book was published a Catholic), does not mean their argument is false.

RE: When Kinsman get done making ad hominem, perhaps he can address my argument. My argument is the CoM stand is false because it is an ad ignorantum argument.

You folks talk a good talk about being such great defenders of the faith, apologists, then prove it. Majik, you are embarrassing yourself. Your argument is a classic ad ignorantum. You said, “I have yet to see the LDS show us where the new testament is false doctrine“. When an argument is used saying that because something cannot be proved (to wit, where new testament is false doctrine) that something else is true, (to wit, the CoM). If you want to see where false doctrine has been added to the Bible by the CoM, I already mentioned Revelation’s add to or take away verse. Again, while this is a straw man argument, I will humor you. Adding this verse (ironically) says that the Canon of Scripture is closed. It is not, otherwise the Books of John would not be in the Bible, but the scribe who inserted it and the Pope who approved the heresy give evidence of the apostasy.

Wait, wait!!! I get it now! This question had a point! There was no interest in understanding the LDS point, and I could give evidence until I am blue in the fingers, and know one will respond intelligently.
 
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