Mormons, when did the Apostacy occur?

[MrS]

You can’t even give an exact date when Jesus was born (or died) that you celebrate! But the date is unimportant. The important thing is that the Apostasy occurred, because all the signs of it are too aparent. You don’t refuse to celebrate Christmas because you don’t know the exact date of His birth, do you? Likewise, we don’t deny the Apostasy just because we can’t put an exact date on it, when all the signs of it are too obvious.

zerinus

Christianity recognizes the importance of the birth, life and death and resurrection of Jesus. And those dates are rather accurate considering how little there is to work with… but all would agree the period of those actualities is within 5-6 years.

Now you come along and claim all that God did (He is God, you know) ceased to bear fruit “back then some time”.

Is that the best you or your “prophets” can do??

Talk about things being obvious…

many eagerly await your 48th post on this thread with more than “it is obvious”

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[Allweather]

You can’t even give an exact date when Jesus was born (or died) that you celebrate! But the date is unimportant. The important thing is that the Apostasy occurred, because all the signs of it are too aparent. You don’t refuse to celebrate Christmas because you don’t know the exact date of His birth, do you? Likewise, we don’t deny the Apostasy just because we can’t put an exact date on it, when all the signs of it are too obvious.

zerinus

This reminds me. My fiance has told me many times that the Mormons have a firm date for the birth of Jesus. I can’t remember what it is, though. Is this true? Have Mormons arrived at a precise date for the birth of the Lord? I’ll ask her about this when I see her later today.

 

[majick275]

april 6

 

[Allweather]

april 6

That’s what I thought. And, the fiance just arrived, and confirmed that 6 April date.

In view of this, I wonder why Zerinus wrote the following:

""You can’t even give an exact date when Jesus was born (or died) that you celebrate! But the date is unimportant. The important thing is that the Apostasy occurred, because all the signs of it are too aparent. You don’t refuse to celebrate Christmas because you don’t know the exact date of His birth, do you? Likewise, we don’t deny the Apostasy just because we can’t put an exact date on it, when all the signs of it are too obvious.

zerinus""

He says “But the date is unimportant” and I agree. Yet, the Mormons have evidently gone to some lengths to come up with a specific date for the birth of the Lord. One wonders why they can’t also come up with a specific date that the apostasy was complete and universal/global.

What say you, Zerinus?

 

[zerinus]

He says “But the date is unimportant” and I agree. Yet, the Mormons have evidently gone to some lengths to come up with a specific date for the birth of the Lord.

The “Mormons” have done no such thing. That date is derived from this revelation from the Lord:

D&C 20:

1 The rise of the Church of Christ in these last days, being one thousand eight hundred and thirty years since the coming of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ in the flesh, it being regularly organized and established agreeable to the laws of our country, by the will and commandments of God, in the fourth month, and on the sixth day of the month which is called April.

As you can see, the language is ambiguous, and it is not clear that it is stating that that is the date of His birth. But it is generally interpreted in the Church that way.

One wonders why they can’t also come up with a specific date that the apostasy was complete and universal/global.

What say you, Zerinus?

The apostasy was complete when the divine authority was lost; and the authority was lost when the last Apostle died; or as in the case of John, when his ministry was withdrawn form the church, without instigating the perpetuation of that institution in the world.

I have repeated that many many times; but you always ask it again. Why? Are you deaf? Are you suffering from memory loss/dementia/Alzheimer’s disease? Would you like the admin to pin this post at the top, so that you won’t forget it again? Well, I don’t know if the admin would agree to it or not; but if you like you can ask them to pin this post at the top of the board, and title it in block capitals: “THE MORMON DATE OF APOSTASY” so that it will be the visible reminder to you and all concerned, and in the future you and others won’t need to ask that question again.

zrinus

 

[Mannyfit75]

The “Mormons” have done no such thing. That date is derived from this revelation from the Lord:

D&C 20:

1 The rise of the Church of Christ in these last days, being one thousand eight hundred and thirty years since the coming of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ in the flesh, it being regularly organized and established agreeable to the laws of our country, by the will and commandments of God, in the fourth month, and on the sixth day of the month which is called April.

As you can see, the language is ambiguous, and it is not clear that it is stating that that is the date of His birth. But it is generally interpreted in the Church that way.

The apostasy was complete when the divine authority was lost; and the authority was lost when the last Apostle died; or as in the case of John, when his ministry was withdrawn form the church, without instigating the perpetuation of that institution in the world.

I have repeated that many many times; but you always ask it again. Why? Are you deaf? Are you suffering from memory loss/dementia/Alzheimer’s disease? Would you like the admin to pin this post at the top, so that you won’t forget it again? Well, I don’t know if the admin would agree to it or not; but if you like you can ask them to pin this post at the top of the board, and title it in block capitals: “THE MORMON DATE OF APOSTASY” so that it will be the visible reminder to you and all concerned, and in the future you and others won’t need to ask that question again.

zrinus

They ask date and time for the Apostacy… which you are unable to give an answer to

 

[Allweather]

one thousand eight hundred and thirty years since the coming of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ in the flesh,[/I]

it being regularly organized and established agreeable to the laws of our country, by the will and commandments of God, in the fourth month, and on the sixth day of the month which is called April.

As you can see, the language is ambiguous, and it is not clear that it is stating that that is the date of His birth. But it is generally interpreted in the Church that way.

So, you say that the date of the establishment of the Mormon church coincides with what you claim to be the birthday of Jesus?

 

[zerinus]

They ask date and time for the Apostacy… which you are unable to give an answer to

If you can give me the precise date when the last Apostle died—the month, year, day, hour, second, and millisecond—I will also give you the precise date—the month, year, day, hour, second, and millisecond—when the Apostasy occurred. How about it?

zerinus

 

[Allweather]

The apostasy was complete when the divine authority was lost; and the authority was lost when the last Apostle died; or as in the case of John, when his ministry was withdrawn form the church, without instigating the perpetuation of that institution in the world.

OK, so it was upon the death of the last Apostle, which as most of us know was sometime between 90 and 100 a.d.

Or, if you are a Mormon and believe that John isn’t yet dead, then upon the moment of his ministry being withdrawn from the Church.

So, when did that happen? When was John’s ministry withdrawn? Can you give us a decade?

I have repeated that many many times; but you always ask it again. Why? Are you deaf? Are you suffering from memory loss/dementia/Alzheimer’s disease? Would you like the admin to pin this post at the top, so that you won’t forget it again? Well, I don’t know if the admin would agree to it or not; but if you like you can ask them to pin this post at the top of the board, and title it in block capitals: “THE MORMON DATE OF APOSTASY” so that it will be the visible reminder to you and all concerned, and in the future you and others won’t need to ask that question again.

zrinus

I don’t have any problem with pinning it up there. Go ahead. But before you do, make sure you actually put the date in there.

 

[zerinus]

So, you say that the date of the establishment of the Mormon church coincides with what you claim to be the birthday of Jesus?

I just told you, we make no claim. The wording is ambiguous. But if the interpretation of that verse is correct, then yes, the date of the establishment of the Church would coinside with the date of birth of Christ.

zerinus

 

[Allweather]

If you can give me the precise date when the last Apostle died—the month, year, day, hour, second, and millisecond—I will also give you the precise date—the month, year, day, hour, second, and millisecond—when the Apostasy occurred. How about it?

zerinus

Nobody has asked for the exact millisecond. Just give us the decade it happened in. Heck, within a century would be SOMETHING, rather “the date when the ministry of John was withdrawn.” Most of us don’t buy into that John-still-walks-the-earth hokum. I mentioned that to my ex-Mo fiance this morning and she said, “Huh?” She’d never heard of that. So maybe this is one of those meaty teachings that only get given to the very fair-haired and delightsome Mormons. And, as I said, Christians would never buy it under ANY circumstances. So we have an approximate DECADE when John died. But you Mormons think he’s still walking around out there somewhere. So we’d like to know: when, within a decade, was John’s ministry withdrawn?

 

[Mannyfit75]

If you can give me the precise date when the last Apostle died—the month, year, day, hour, second, and millisecond—I will also give you the precise date—the month, year, day, hour, second, and millisecond—when the Apostasy occurred. How about it?

zerinus

The last Apostle die around 90 to 100 A.D. If you claim the Apostocy happened around that time, you would not give the King James Bible written in 1611 much credit.

There was list of the Bible until 382 A.D Council of Rome, Council of Hippo 392, and Council of Carthage 396.

So basically if you believe it did happen on the day the Last Apostle die, you might as well throw away the NT because it was the Church that collected all the written text both Old and New and put it all in the Bible.

 

[Allweather]

I just told you, we make no claim. The wording is ambiguous. But if the interpretation of that verse is correct, then yes, the date of the establishment of the Church would coinside with the date of birth of Christ.

zerinus

Evidently a lot of Mormons believe 6 April to be the date of the Lord’s birth. My ex-Mo fiance’s birthday is also 6 April. This morning she told me that Mormons over the years have commented to her, “Hey, your birthday is the same date as Jesus’ birthday.”

It’s a minor point. I just think it’s kind of funny. Putting a date on Jesus’ birth, but can’t reveal the date when John’s ministry was withdrawn.

 

[zerinus]

OK, so it was upon the death of the last Apostle, which as most of us know was sometime between 90 and 100 a.d.

Or, if you are a Mormon and believe that John isn’t yet dead, then upon the moment of his ministry being withdrawn from the Church.

So, when did that happen? When was John’s ministry withdrawn? Can you give us a decade?

I have no idea; but I would say the end of the first century is a good guess.

I don’t have any problem with pinning it up there. Go ahead.

I am not a the admin. You have to ask them to do it. And since you are a Catholic, maybe they will listen to you more than to me. You can ask them in my behalf.

But before you do, make sure you actually put the date in there.

Why do you keep contradicting yourself? You just agreed with me a minuite ago that a precise date is not important. Now you asking me for a date again. What is the problem with you?

zerinus

 

[zerinus]

It’s a minor point. I just think it’s kind of funny. Putting a date on Jesus’ birth, but can’t reveal the date when John’s ministry was withdrawn.

I don’t mean to be rude, but that is just plain dumb. I just explained it to you. We don’t “put a date on Jesus’s birth”. There is a verse in one of the revelations of Joseph Smith that can (with some uncertainty) be interpreted that way. We didn’t go and ask the Lord to tell us what His birthday is.

zerinus

 

[Allweather]

I have no idea; but I would say the end of the first century is a good guess.

You don’t know, and are guessing. So, let me ask, are there any other Mormons who would know and not have to guess? Or, is this guesswork thing something that is universal among Mormons when it comes to explaining the Great Apostasy?

I am not a the admin. You have to ask them to do it. And since you are a Catholic, maybe they will listen to you more than to me. You can ask them in my behalf.

It was YOUR idea, Zerinus. You ask. I’ll give you a letter of reference.

Why do you keep contradicting yourself? You just agreed with me a minuite ago that a precise date is not important. Now you asking me for a date again. What is the problem with you? zerinus

Uh oh, it looks like Zerinus is getting cranky again. Poor kid. So many demands being made on him. And he gets no respect.

 

[Allweather]

I don’t mean to be rude, but that is just plain dumb. I just explained it to you. We don’t “put a date on Jesus’s birth”. There is a verse in one of the revelations of Joseph Smith that can (with some uncertainty) be interpreted that way. We didn’t go and ask the Lord to tell us what His birthday is.

zerinus

What you mean “we” kimosabe?

I just told you that many, if not most, if not ALL other Mormons DO put the 6 April date as the Lord’s birthday.

Now, if by “we” you mean Zerinus and his missionary partner in the next cube, then fine. But if you are making a claim for a Mormon-wide opinion, then it is obvious that you’re whistling in the dark. Again.

 

[MrS]

You don’t know, and are guessing. So, let me ask, are there any other Mormons who would know and not have to guess? Or, is this guesswork thing something that is universal among Mormons when it comes to explaining the Great Apostasy?

It was YOUR idea, Zerinus. You ask. I’ll give you a letter of reference.

Uh oh, it looks like Zerinus is getting cranky again. Poor kid. So many demands being made on him. And he gets no respect.

I’ll give him one too…smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/3/3_3_25.gif

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[Allweather]

I have no idea; but I would say the end of the first century is a good guess.

Just a reminder, Zerinus. I don’t want you to get all flustered by this birthday of Jesus talk. I will repeat my question: Are there ANY OTHER MORMONS who would be able to answer the question as to the approximate date, within, say, a decade, of John’s ministry being withdrawn?

I accept what you say that you are in guesswork mode on this. But it seems to me that there might be a more authoritative source for this information than you. Maybe you could direct us over to it.

 

[zerinus]

You don’t know, and are guessing. So, let me ask, are there any other Mormons who would know and not have to guess? Or, is this guesswork thing something that is universal among Mormons when it comes to explaining the Great Apostasy?

I will tell you what is wrong with that. There are some historical events that one can definitely say have occurred, but one cannot put a precise date to—and in a way that is not really important, because of their occurrence there cannot be any doubt. I will give you an example. It would be difficult to find two historians who would agree to a precise date—month, year, day, hour, and second—when the Roman Empire fell. But all will agree that it fell, and will put the date of the fall somewhere in the fourth and fifth centuries. The same is true of the Apostasy. I have given you a mush narrower range for the date of the Apostasy than the historians give for the fall of the Roman Empire.

It was YOUR idea, Zerinus. You ask. I’ll give you a letter of reference.

I was being facetious. However, if it will help you to remember that, and not embarrass yourself in the future by asking that silly question again, you can ask them to pin it up. I have no objection.

Uh oh, it looks like Zerinus is getting cranky again. Poor kid. So many demands being made on him. And he gets no respect.

From where I am looking at it, the “crankiness” is coming from you.

zeirnus