Mormons, when did the Apostacy occur?

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Ok, I am understanding it more now, thanks zerinus.

However, the Holy Spirit came upon the Apostles at Pentecost. Do you believe that?
Yes.
Jesus gave the Apostles to baptise people in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, and to make disciples of them.
True.
Jesus did not say make Apostles of them.
Not everyone is to be an Apostle. But the church of God must necessarily have priesthood officers to govern it and minister to it. You can’t have a church without an ecclesiastical government. The question is, who were those whom God had ordained to govern and structure the church? Luckily Paul has told us:

Ephesians 4:

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

These are the officers that are required in the organization of the church of God. Presumably you believe that “teachers,” “pastors,” and “evangelists” are still required in the church of God, because you still have them in your church; so why not Apostles and prophets? Where does it say that pastors and teachers and evangelists are to continue, but Apostles and prophets are not?
So why is it Mormons believe that the true church should be run by Apostles and continual revelation?
Because it is not worthy to be called God’s Church if it is not in direct communion with Him, and cannot receive revelation from God. Whenever God has had a true church on earth, it has been in direct communication with Him through His chosen agents whom He had appointed in that church. It is only when it has apostatized that it has ceased to be able to do so. Amos wrote: “Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets” (Amos 3:7). And Paul wrote: “And {ye} are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone” (Ephesians 2:20). Prophets, Apostles, and revelation from God are the very life blood and foundation of the true church of God in the world. If a church is incapable of receiving revelation from God, that means that God has turned His back on that church, it is no longer in communion with Him, and it can no longer be rightly be called God’s church.

zerinus
 
Yes.

True.

Not everyone is to be an Apostle. But the church of God must necessarily have priesthood officers to govern it and minister to it. You can’t have a church without an ecclesiastical government. The question is, who were those whom God had ordained to govern and structure the church? Luckily Paul has told us:

Ephesians 4:

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
These are the officers that are required in the organization of the church of God. Presumably you believe that “teachers,” “pastors,” and “evangelists” are still required in the church of God, because you still have them in your church; so why not Apostles and prophets? Where does it say that pastors and teachers and evangelists are to continue, but Apostles and prophets are not?

Because it is not worthy to be called God’s Church if it is not in direct communion with Him, and cannot receive revelation from God. Whenever God has had a true church on earth, it has been in direct communication with Him through His chosen agents whom He had appointed in that church. It is only when it has apostatized that it has ceased to be able to do so. Amos wrote: “Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets” (Amos 3:7). And Paul wrote: “And {ye} are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone” (Ephesians 2:20). Prophets, Apostles, and revelation from God are the very life blood and foundation of the true church of God in the world. If a church is incapable of receiving revelation from God, that means that God has turned His back on that church, it is no longer in communion with Him, and it can no longer be rightly be called God’s church.

zerinus
Ok, I understand now where you are coming from.
One last thing, why would God turn His back on John, seeing as you believe John is still alive.
Did John supposedly do something wrong?
 
Ok, I understand now where you are coming from.
One last thing, why would God turn His back on John, seeing as you believe John is still alive.
Did John supposedly do something wrong?
His last known address was 23 Via Veneto, Roma, Italia.

I think our Mormon friends feel miffed. They thought he might take an apartment in Provo.
 
His last known address was 23 Via Veneto, Roma, Italia.

I think our Mormon friends feel miffed. They thought he might take an apartment in Provo.
It’s strange that the apostle John hasn’t made himself known to the LDS church. After all, it would be a great recruiting campaign to have the apostle John himself inviting people to take the missionary discussions. Since the Mormon church is the church John attended in the early first century, don’t you think he would be going to his local ward for sacrament meeting every Sunday? Does he pay his tithing to the bishop? Does he hold any callings in his local ward? Perhaps he is a Gospel Doctrine teacher. He would certainly have some great stories to tell about hanging out with the Savior, drinking some wine and listening to parables… But I digress.

I can see it now - John applies for membership in his local ward:

“What is your name?”
“John”
“Last Name?”
“Bar Zebedee”
“How do you spell that?”
“B-A-R…forget it”
“Your last ward?”
“Galilee West 2nd Ward”
“Galilee, Idaho?”
“No, Galilee Israel.”
“Are you pulling my leg, young man?”
“I’m not as young as I look.”
“What was the name of your former bishop?”
“James.”
“James what?”
“James the brother of the Lord.”
“I think you are an apostate pretender, sent here to spy on us.”
“(sigh) No wonder I’ve been inactive for 1906 years.”
 
Ok, I understand now where you are coming from.
One last thing, why would God turn His back on John, seeing as you believe John is still alive.
Did John supposedly do something wrong?
I believe that you had asked that question before, and the correct answer was given.

zerinus
 
I believe that you had asked that question before, and the correct answer was given.

zerinus
zerinus,
I searched CAF and found this post of yours …

*The *ministry of John the Beloved was also withdrawn from the early Christian church for precisely the same reason, because they had apostatized form the truth, and the faith and miracles and the healings ceased because of the wickedness of the people. That is why John could not remain among them to revitalize the church by reconstituting the quorum of the Twelve Apostles and the full organization of the church which the Lord had originally established. Their apostasy had made it impossible for him to even remain among them, never mind to revitalize the church.

In other posts you have said that many many people went on living very Christian lives, but it was the church that apostasized.

I fail to see how John would not be included in these people that did continue to live Christian lives.

If John’s ministry was taken away from him as he had no church to minister for, as the church apostasized, then why wasn’t he allowed to join the LDS?

Did John contribute to the Apostasy?
Did he do something wrong?
 
Allweather-
I can see the advantages a catechism like document would be helpful, but their would be some serious drawbacks as well. One would be the screams the LDS are ‘rewriting’ their doctine. To wit, several doctrines you folks here continue to explain to me we ‘believe’, such as polygamy being required for salvation, the bigfoot myth, the blacks in the priesthood debacle, etc… So, when the Church would definitively express doctrine, it would lay itself open for more charges.
One point of interest. I was listening to the Cathelic Answers show on Sirius and a caller asked why their was a change in the doctrine regarding infants going to hell, and the creation of the doctrine of a ‘baptism of intent’, in effect helping to create an environment where the souls of those who have not had the opportunity to be baptized, but would have if given the opportunity, could be saved in Christ.
The answer given was that in the 1500-1600s the Church was faced with a crises of a huge population of people who would never get the opportunity to here the gospel, and by the teachings of the time would be doomed to hell. This was clearly not the work of a merciful God. The answer given was that the doctrine evolved to explain emerging truth.
To a non-catholic like myself, there are clear issues with this explanation. When the shoe was on our foot regarding blacks and the priesthood, the church leadership chose wrongly. Rather than continuing on with the practice of giving blacks full membership into the church, leaders suspended the practice in light of government and local pressures. When the Church moved to Utah, the practice was not addressed because there no pressure (black populations were not prosylitized). When black populations in South America, Asia, and Africa where prosylitized, Spencer Kimball prayed and received a revelation that all blacks were to be given full rights of membership. This was not an evolution of doctrine, but a correction of a leadership error. Another point about this issue, someone in this thread comments regularly about how horrible the Church members were to have as neighbors, and the Church was responsible for the martyrdom of Joseph because of this. I suppose that is true. Missourians were notoriously bigoted, a slave state, and found the LDS position of abolition of slavery and bestowal of priesthood authority to be disgusting. Another point, the bearers of these threads out not to cast boulders in glass houses. The EWTN network is advertising a book or movie about an African-American who became a priest after the Civil War. But he had to leave America because the Catholic Church in America had problems with him being black.
Anyway, back to the evolution of doctrine point. In this thread there have been questions about why God would need to communicate to his Church in on going revelation. Did the Catholic Church’s doctrine of ‘baptism of intent’ develop due to the rational thought of man, or was it an influence of the Holy Ghost, what the Bible calls the Spirit of Prophecy? Any answers to this last would be appreciated, and criticized (in the classical definition of the word) but not judged.

Mr.S-
I think cancer is the right word. The catholic has problems of this sort going on right now. The Liberal Theology Bishops are driving members away from the RC in droves. This is a cancer in the RC and I am really glad the pontificate is doing something about it.
Another cancer in the RC is the pedophile and paedorist issues. All the people I talk to understand there are issues within any organization. Perverted priests are not indicative of Catholic doctrine. However, what does disturb people are the apparant covering up for these priests by RC leaders. Here in Dallas there was a particularly bad scandal, and the RC members were particularly pained by this. My prayers went out to them.
 
One would be the screams the LDS are ‘rewriting’ their doctine. To wit, several doctrines you folks here continue to explain to me we ‘believe’, such as polygamy being required for salvation, the bigfoot myth, the blacks in the priesthood debacle

, etc… So, when the Church would definitively express doctrine, it would lay itself open for more charges.

No, wussup, we would repeat how this so-called revelation to Mormon leaders from God is inconsistent and contradictory.

Hardly the stuff of “restoration” for a self-proclaimed 'true church."

The fact is, your doctrine is like that magic chameleon: forever changing as one revelation trumps another.

But better yet is this quote from you:

When the shoe was on our foot regarding blacks and the priesthood, the church leadership chose wrongly…, Spencer Kimball prayed and received a revelation that all blacks were to be given full rights of membership. **This was not an evolution of doctrine, but a correction of a leadership error. **
 
zerinus,
I searched CAF and found this post of yours …

*The *ministry of John the Beloved was also withdrawn from the early Christian church for precisely the same reason, because they had apostatized form the truth, and the faith and miracles and the healings ceased because of the wickedness of the people. That is why John could not remain among them to revitalize the church by reconstituting the quorum of the Twelve Apostles and the full organization of the church which the Lord had originally established. Their apostasy had made it impossible for him to even remain among them, never mind to revitalize the church.

In other posts you have said that many many people went on living very Christian lives, but it was the church that apostasized.

I fail to see how John would not be included in these people that did continue to live Christian lives.

If John’s ministry was taken away from him as he had no church to minister for, as the church apostasized, then why wasn’t he allowed to join the LDS?

Did John contribute to the Apostasy?
Did he do something wrong?
That was a long post, and it was addressed to Nan. It ran into two posts, and it does answer your question. These are the posts I found in that thread that relate to your question:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=1901609&postcount=34
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=1904338&postcount=37
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=1904342&postcount=38

I had also discussed that question with you in this very thread, but you seem to have forgotten. You must have a short memory! Here are the posts:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=1929978&postcount=54
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=1930518&postcount=59
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=1931801&postcount=71
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=1935490&postcount=137
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=1935935&postcount=141

zerinus
 
I have always thought of myself as highly intelligent, and have always loved following current affairs, and news around the world.
I also have always thought I was a very logical person.
But I have to say that trying to understand Mormonism has got me beat.
I am sorry zerinus, I truly have tried to understand.
I got so far, but your last post has truly beat me.
I still cannot grasp how God would choose John as an Apostle, then withdraw his ministry because the church apostasized.
If John was one of the original Apostles, why didn’t God speak to Him and tell him that His church was going all wrong, and get John to restore it?
Why has John seemingly been punished when he was always referred to as the loved one?
I am sorry but this part of the LDS Apostasy theory makes no sense to me.
Maybe my Catholic friends here can explain it to me better.
 
I have always thought of myself as highly intelligent, and have always loved following current affairs, and news around the world.
I am sure you are!
I also have always thought I was a very logical person.
Women are never logical!
But I have to say that trying to understand Mormonism has got me beat.
I am sorry zerinus, I truly have tried to understand.
Maybe that it the problem, trying to understand!
I got so far, but your last post has truly beat me.
My last post was only a reference to our previous posts.
I still cannot grasp how God would choose John as an Apostle, then withdraw his ministry because the church apostasized.
I have no problems understanding that. Doesn’t the Bible say that if someone becomes wicked, the Spirit of God withdraws from him, and evil spirits become his companions? (Matthew 12:43-45.) Does not the Bible say that the Spirit of God “will not always strive with man”? (Genesis 6:3) Multiply that by as many number of people as you like.
If John was one of the original Apostles, why didn’t God speak to Him and tell him that His church was going all wrong, and get John to restore it?
Because God has given man an agency, or freewill. If some people want to become wicked of their own free will and choice, God cannot and is not going to force them not to. If somebody is determined to go to hell, God is not going to twist his arm not to. He will persuade him, coax him, cajole him; but the ultimate decision is left to him, not to God. If the church, or large numbers of people in it, had chosen to apostatize, John was powerless to prevent them from doing so.
Why has John seemingly been punished when he was always referred to as the loved one?
Who said that? I didn’t say that, nor implied it. You are the one who is saying it, not me.
I am sorry but this part of the LDS Apostasy theory makes no sense to me.
Maybe my Catholic friends here can explain it to me better.
It makes sense to me. I don’t know about you!

zerinus
 
Mr.S-
I think cancer is the right word. The catholic has problems of this sort going on right now. The Liberal Theology Bishops are driving members away from the RC in droves. This is a cancer in the RC and I am really glad the pontificate is doing something about it.
Another cancer in the RC is the pedophile and paedorist issues. All the people I talk to understand there are issues within any organization. Perverted priests are not indicative of Catholic doctrine. However, what does disturb people are the apparant covering up for these priests by RC leaders. Here in Dallas there was a particularly bad scandal, and the RC members were particularly pained by this. My prayers went out to them.
agreed… but the Lib Bishops are corrupting much of their flocks, and those who are more “catholic” then stand out in the crowd. B16 does say that the Church will be smaller and stronger.

As for the homosexual scandals (pedophile is rare… involves one younger than puberty)… they are of major concern. Perhaps the media does us a favor by reporting on the 1000 priests out of 45,000 priests who are the problem and thus helps or forces us to address the issue… yet I wonder why the nearly 6-8times that percentage which occurs in the married/Protestant sector, is largely unreported. They need prayers too.

In spite of it all, and in spite of the numerous scandals in Church History, the sinners are taken to task, and the Church lives on and grows in the Fulness of the Truth. I would think that the world would stand in awe of the evidence of a lack of Apostasy in the Catholic Church.



.
 
Allweather-
I can see the advantages a catechism like document would be helpful, but their would be some serious drawbacks as well. One would be the screams the LDS are ‘rewriting’ their doctine. To wit, several doctrines you folks here continue to explain to me we ‘believe’, such as polygamy being required for salvation, the bigfoot myth, the blacks in the priesthood debacle, etc… So, when the Church would definitively express doctrine, it would lay itself open for more charges.
Exactly. Someone else, perhaps on another thread, in answer to my question about why the Mormon church doesn’t have a catechism, said that a catechism would hem them in and make it obvious to all the doctrinal changes that have taken, and are taking place. I see you agree with that. Our Catholic catechism shows the continuity of doctrine and dogma over the centuries, and I think that this is a strength, rather than a weakness. “God is the same, yesterday, today, and forever” and any Church he established would naturally have a doctrinal and dogmatic structure that reflects that eternal continuity.
One point of interest. I was listening to the Cathelic Answers show on Sirius and a caller asked why their was a change in the doctrine regarding infants going to hell, and the creation of the doctrine of a ‘baptism of intent’, in effect helping to create an environment where the souls of those who have not had the opportunity to be baptized, but would have if given the opportunity, could be saved in Christ.
If you’re referring to “limbo” that was never a doctrine. I believe there is a good article here at CA, or perhaps over at Catholic Encyclopedia about limbo.
ack populations in South America, Asia, and Africa where prosylitized, Spencer Kimball prayed and received a revelation that all blacks were to be given full rights of membership. This was not an evolution of doctrine, but a correction of a leadership error.
Others, and I tend to agree with them, think that the timing of this “rvelation” had more to do with outrage in the population at large over this apparent racism in LDS practice. The same can be said of the timing of the end of polygamy. It just “happened” to coincide with the demands of the Federal Gov’t and the desire of Utah to become a U.S. state. I think the coincidences are suspicious, though not confirming. We can let people make up their own minds. I certainly have.
EWTN network is advertising a book or movie about an African-American who became a priest after the Civil War. But he had to leave America because the Catholic Church in America had problems with him being black.
You might want to read that book, or see that movie. I think your facts are a little off.
Anyway, back to the evolution of doctrine point. In this thread there have been questions about why God would need to communicate to his Church in on going revelation. Did the Catholic Church’s doctrine of ‘baptism of intent’ develop due to the rational thought of man, or was it an influence of the Holy Ghost, what the Bible calls the Spirit of Prophecy? Any answers to this last would be appreciated, and criticized (in the classical definition of the word) but not judged.
I know nothing about the so-called “baptism of intent” but let me give an example from my own personal understanding, and please bear in mind that I’m completely self-educated, I am not a theologian, I’m old, and I never did think very clearly, LOL. Revelation is closed. That means that God, in Jesus, has revealed all He has chosen to reveal to us about His nature, and His plan for mankind. However, our understanding of this revelation is unfolding. We get this unfolding info in two main ways. First, Tradition. Second, Scripture. (not that one has primacy over the other, but that they are actually two images of the same thing). Tradition is, in large measure, the acting out of God’s will and presence through the people who love Him. So that, if something has existed in belief in all places, in all times, then the Church takes that as powerful evidence that it is God’s will. An example might be the Assumption. Very little scriptural evidence at all, but something that has existed in the minds and piety of Catholics from the very earliest times, and continues today. If this dogma weren’t so, then it would have faded away centuries ago. That isn’t revelation, but a crystalization of comprehension of revelation already given. Now, I realize that my explanation is probably not very good. Go ahead and shoot holes in it, but bear in mind I am working without references, I am not at home, I’m in a hurry, etc. Maybe someone else with a better theological understanding can jump in and correct me, and better explain what I’m getting at.
 
Allweather-
I can see the advantages a catechism like document would be helpful, but their would be some serious drawbacks as well. One would be the screams the LDS are ‘rewriting’ their doctine.
yet that is exactly one of the most common criticisms of the LDS church anyway.
To wit, several doctrines you folks here continue to explain to me we ‘believe’, such as polygamy being required for salvation
let’s be accurate. there is a huge difference between exaltation and salvation in the LDS church and LDS prophets have taught that only polygamists will be among those in the highest degree of the celestial kingdom.D&C 132 seems to support that as well.
, the bigfoot myth
that is a myth and I find your throwing it in here an attempt to draw attention away from the other doctrines here being fact. The Cain thing is a common myth though so it’s not like it’s totally made up. anyone who was LDS for any length of time has heard wilder tales in gospel doctrine class and testimony meetings.
the blacks in the priesthood debacle,
this is huge because it was in LDS scriptures. Still is despite some attmepts to edit it out. it was also taught strongly in recent times.look at what Apostles Mark E Petersen and Bruce R. Mconkie said on this in published materials. for that matter look at what Spencer Kimball taught and he was the one who made the change. He was very clear that it wasn’t correcting a mistake. he called it the prohesied time coming to pass so that they could finally be allowed. he never said anything to contradict the doctrine that it was God’s will they not be given the preiesthood earlier because of their time in the pre-existence making them unworthy of those blessings and thus causing them to be born under the curse of Cain. The racism is also present in the whole lamanite thing but that for another thread.
snip Rather than continuing on with the practice of giving blacks full membership into the church, leaders suspended the practice in light of government and local pressures. When the Church moved to Utah, the practice was not addressed because there no pressure (black populations were not proselytized). When black populations in South America, Asia, and Africa where proselytized, Spencer Kimball prayed and received a revelation that all blacks were to be given full rights of membership. This was not an evolution of doctrine, but a correction of a leadership error.
yet all writings on this subject by LDS authorities directly contradict your theory.
 
(continued)
Another point about this issue, someone in this thread comments regularly about how horrible the Church members were to have as neighbors, and the Church was responsible for the martyrdom of Joseph because of this. I suppose that is true. Missourians were notoriously bigoted, a slave state, and found the LDS position of abolition of slavery and bestowal of priesthood authority to be disgusting.
no they found bank fraud, church controlled militias, theocratic government and joseph trying to sleep with all the women he could seduce offensive.
Another point, the bearers of these threads out not to cast boulders in glass houses. The EWTN network is advertising a book or movie about an African-American who became a priest after the Civil War. But he had to leave America because the Catholic Church in America had problems with him being black.
valid point and one Catholics should learn form. the difference? it wasn’t doctrine!!! there was no revelation or scripture justifying that position. it was individual catholics not living their faith properly. we should look at it and we should do it openly and honestly and apologize for our mistakes in practice. Our doctrines never changed though.
Anyway, back to the evolution of doctrine point. In this thread there have been questions about why God would need to communicate to his Church in on going revelation. Did the Catholic Church’s doctrine of ‘baptism of intent’ develop due to the rational thought of man, or was it an influence of the Holy Ghost, what the Bible calls the Spirit of Prophecy? Any answers to this last would be appreciated, and criticized (in the classical definition of the word) but not judged.
valid point again. please notice the difference between doctrinal development where the Holy Spirit guides in understanding how to apply doctrine and changing doctrine which would require new public revelation. Jesus changed doctrine and gave new public revelation that the world was finally ready for. The Apostles carried it to us and revealed how to apply it based on what Jesus taught them in person. now we just seek to understand from scripture and tradition how to continually apply those doctrines. the thought that world is ready fro something new doctrinally is contrary to Catholic dogma because we believe that he is the ultimate. No doctrine could be greater than what he revealed. no one greater than him will be sent and thus his message is the final word from God to man. our search is not for more knowledge, or higher knowledge or further light. Our goal is to apply what we already have. it was difficult in Jesus time as evidenced by the biblical accounts of those who asked jesus what to do and when he answered they couldn’t do it. what jesus asks us is simple but not easy and we catholics are engaged in the struggle to live the ten commandments and the beatitudes within the precepts of the church.

you are in Dallas? i just moved from the sherman area. we were in the Ft. Worth diocese but I worked in Dallas and used to attend the Dallas Temple.
 
If my understanding of the movie/book on the black priest was incorrect, my apologies. However, the point is the Catholic Church has issues with its leadership as well, and does in fact have to constantly deal with these leaders. For various reasons, the personal ideas of various leaders made it into print as doctrine. One can look into the background of why these men thought the way they did, but the bottom line is their wacky ideas, while taught as doctrine, was not. My opinion, the type of person who was strong willed enough to do what it took to overcome the trials and persecution was also the type of person who often relied as much on his own preconceived ideas as the Lords. This same type of person would also develop these ideas into areas that became bad teaching. As we can see from the lack of courtesy granted in these pages, the complete lack of respect for anothers ideas, early church leaders doing this was very ill-conceived. However, in the secluded environment of Utah at the time, checks and balances, a common sense barometer as it were, were non-existence. Such ideas are common. I figure that if Catholics were granted the freedom to speculate on any ideas, to actually give detailed ideas of the ‘mysteries’ they believe in, some pretty crazy ideas would occur. I had an interview with the Senior Pastor of the largest First Baptist Church in Wichita Falls. He told me man’s purpose was for God to prove to his angels he could be merciful. He told me this as a non-member and as his own personal reason and that he was sure it was true. Crazy idea, as if God would feel the need to prove anything.
Allweather-
In the words of Jerry Porath, the Catholic Church is in a constant state of Doctrinal Development. I do not understand how doctrine can develop without revelation from God. The Catholic Encyclopedia says, “5. Finally, it is objected that the acceptance of ecclesiastical infallibility is incompatible with the theory of doctrinal development which Catholics commonly admit. But so far is this from being true that it is impossible to frame any theory of development, consistent with Catholic principles, in which authority is not recognized as a guiding and controlling factor. For development in the Catholic sense does not mean that the Church ever changes her definitive teaching, but merely that as time goes on and human science advances, her teaching is more deeply analyzed, more fully comprehended, and more perfectly coordinated and explained in itself and in its bearings on other departments of knowledge. It is only on the false supposition that development means change in definitive teaching that the objection has any real force. We have confined our attention to what we may describe as the rational objections against the Catholic doctrine of infallibility, omitting all mention of the interminable exegetical difficulties which Protestant theologians have raised against the Catholic interpretation of Christ’s promises to His Church. The necessity for noticing these latter has been done away with by the growth of Rationalism, the logical successor of old-time Protestantism. If the infallible Divine authority of Christ, and the historicity of His promises to which we have appealed be admitted, there is no reasonable escape from the conclusion which the Catholic Church has drawn from those promises”. Ok, great. As a Catholic I would appreciate this. After all, when it proven that the Earth is not the center of the Universe, it is a good idea to make belief in this not penalized by being burned at the stake. I would also prefer to have a Church that has the huavos to do this.
 
Allweather-
In the words of Jerry Porath, the Catholic Church is in a constant state of Doctrinal Development. I do not understand how doctrine can develop without revelation from God.
I’m just ruminating here… but maybe we’re defining “revelation” differently. I know that this is a common source of confusion between Mormons and Christians… the fact that we don’t have the same definitions for various key words. BTW who is Jerry Porath?
The Catholic Encyclopedia says, "5. Finally, it is objected that the acceptance of ecclesiastical infallibility is incompatible with the theory of doctrinal development which Catholics commonly admit. But so far is this from being true that it is impossible to frame any theory of development, consistent with Catholic principles, in which authority is not recognized as a guiding and controlling factor… etc
Sounds good to me.
Ok, great. As a Catholic I would appreciate this. After all, when it proven that the Earth is not the center of the Universe, it is a good idea to make belief in this not penalized by being burned at the stake. I would also prefer to have a Church that has the huavos to do this.
I may not be clearly following you on the last paragraph, but I won’t let that stop me from commenting, LOL. Are you referring to Galileo? He wasn’t burnt at the stake. I’m not aware of anyone who was, strictly for believing that the Earth is not the center of the universe, but, then, I’m not an expert. PBS had a great series, or at least a program, about Galileo, very well done, that went into mucho detail about the controversy of his time. The details help to explain the Pope’s reaction to Galileo, especially in view of writings of Galileo’s that the Pope found personally insulting. So there must’ve been a personality clash, even between former friends, which they were. Personally, I try to put myself into the day and imagine what “proof” must be for men of that time. There were some theories, and a guy with a new technology (telescope) which purported to prove the theories, or at least add data. The Pope asked that it not be advanced as proof, and I think that that was a reasonable request given the implications. Further study was adviseable. For the most part, Galileo, being a good Catholic, obeyed, and therein, I think, is the lesson. Obedience. The Pope was right. There wasn’t sufficient evidence at that time. Galileo was far better off to do his work, and to share data with other scientists, but not to write books about it that would serve mainly to upset the faithful unnecessarily. After all, the geocentricity (or not) of the planet was hardly going to have an impact on daily piety, was it? In time, Galileo was proven correct, and it is worth noting that the Church, far from being the enemy of science and pure research, did make the situation right, albeit years later.

I’m presently reading Simon Southerton’s book about the Book of Mormon. In a later chapter (I tend to skip around), he talks about the difference between the Catholic Church, and the Mormon church with respect to being open to pure science. He says that BYU, which is owned by the LDS church, is populated by nearly 100% Mormons, and that no study is tolerated there that does not hew to the doctrinal line, whatever that happens to be. OTOH, in Rome there is a Pontifical Academy of Science (I hope I got that name right) which is composed of some 90 international scholars, about 1/3 of them Nobel laureates, of all faiths (not just Christian, not just Catholic). The creme de la creme, in other words. They are free to write and speak as they see fit, and though they are expected to pay proper respect to the Church, in view of the fact that the Church is paying the bills for their biannual confabs, there is no thumb pressed against them to cause them to toe a doctrinal line. So, when we are talking about stake burnings, if Southerton’s writings are true, it might be more to the point to take a look at Salt Lake City, and see if there be any plumes of smoke arising.
 
Sorry, I didn’t get back in time to edit my last post. The book I referenced is Southerton’s Losing A Lost Tribe: Native Americans, DNA, and the Mormon Church. The reference to the Pontifical Academy of Sciences is in chapter 10. This Academy is headquartered in Casina Pio IV, nearby St. Peter’s Basilica. The Academy was founded in 1936 by Pope Pius XI “to promote the progress of the mathematical, physical and natural sciences and the study of epistemological problems related thereto.” The Academy consists of “80 eminent scientists - 25 of whom are Nobel laureates - from diverse disciplines, nationalities, and religious beliefs.”
 
In the words of Jerry Porath, the Catholic Church is in a constant state of Doctrinal Development. I do not understand how doctrine can develop without revelation from God.
Wussup, you read Jerry Porath? It was a long time ago, about 1980 when my companion and I met him. He was living in Simi Valley at the time. The missionaries before us had taught him, he was pretty well known even at that time.
 
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