R
RebeccaJ
Guest
How do you reconcile this against “thou shalt not kill”? By this logic, murder is no big deal at any time. In murder the body is killed and the spirit is not.
There is nothing in the Bible about “other bodies”.
- Status
There is nothing in the Bible about “other bodies”.
C
Chris-WA
Guest
I really think you should rethink your last couple of sentences because they sound quite absurd. First of all, there is no human life in a body if that body has no soul (spirit) present within. So you can’t say that abortion ends a life if you believe the soul doesn’t enter the body until birth. Secondly, to say there will be other bodies for that soul, well, that’s just plain bizarre.
And if you then fall back on the position that we don’t really know when the soul enters the body, as other Mormons may say, then would it not be prudent to assume that this event occurs at conception in order to take the most conservative stance in the protection and sanctity of human life? If we don’t know, shouldn’t we then logically take the most conservative position rather than hope human life begins at some later time and take the risk of being wrong?
As far as pre-existence goes, Mormons run a mile with a couple of scriptures that in no way indicate the Jews believed in pre-existence, or that we existed in heaven with God prior to our birth. “Before I formed you in your mother’s womb I knew you” does not mean that there was a pre-existence. Look at it this way–God never says that* we knew Him* before we were born. So what do we learn from this? Remember that God, as the creator of the universe, exists apart from time and space, not within time and space. For him there is no time, and in that context the verse makes perfect sense. He knows all that was, all that is, and all that will be–all at the same time! He sees his creation all at once, which is something we cannot grasp with our limited human understanding.
I tell you my friend–if you really believe that the soul doesn’t enter the body until birth, then you are in the same camp as even the most militant pro-abortionists, because they believe the same thing. Allowing yourself to believe that an unborn baby has no soul, but is merely a bunch of flesh and bone, is what makes the acceptance of unlimited abortion possible. Even if the Mormons insist on the belief of the pre-existence, I am rather shocked that they wouldn’t say that a pre-existent soul is placed within the body immediately at conception.
V
Valke2
Guest
I believe the poster was saying that, in the event of a miscarriage or abortion, where the life is terminated before the body takes a breath outside the womb, the spirit/soul is given a new body. In such a case, an abortion would not deprive the soul of anything, other then a delay in experiencing life in this world.
It is, IMO, just as rational belief as any other regarding what happens to a soul.
It is, IMO, just as rational belief as any other regarding what happens to a soul.
G
Good_Daughter
Guest
It may be a rational belief as long as it is consistent. The problem in this case is that Mormons teach that abortion is a terrible evil.
If you believe abortion does not deprive the soul of anything, why would you oppose abortion at all, as Mormons do? In Mormonism, even the way a baby is concieved (rape, incest) can be grounds for abortion. Do you see the inconsistency?
A
Ahimsa
Guest
If the soul itself (and by ‘soul’ I mean the part of ‘us’ that is neither ‘mind’ nor ‘body’ – if you can imagine what that might be
) is not affected by any physical action we might do, then of course abortion would not affect the soul itself.However, humans are also mind and body, and any sort of killing (e.g., abortion) does affect mind and body, and does cause pain and suffering. Abortion’s effect on the mind and body is what should be avoided, even if the soul itself remains free and un-harmed.
W
why_me
Guest
I believe that the quotation that I blackened in your post does say a lot. I have had this feeling that catholics believe that god creates us out of nothing. When it seems clear that God knew us before we even entered the womb. How can this be? It does imply a prior knowledge of just who we are.
I can understad your interpretation but you should also understand that the lds can have a different interpretation of that scripture.
W
why_me
Guest
It would be difficult to believe that with all the abortions in this world, the soul would also be destroyed. I think that god frowns upon abortion but I also think that the soul will find a place somewhere else. His creations will not be thwarted.If the soul itself (and by ‘soul’ I mean the part of ‘us’ that is neither ‘mind’ nor ‘body’ – if you can imagine what that might be
However, humans are also mind and body, and any sort of killing (e.g., abortion) does affect mind and body, and does cause pain and suffering. Abortion’s effect on the mind and body is what should be avoided, even if the soul itself remains free and un-harmed.
G
Good_Daughter
Guest
Of course, you’re right.If the soul itself (and by ‘soul’ I mean the part of ‘us’ that is neither ‘mind’ nor ‘body’ – if you can imagine what that might be
However, humans are also mind and body, and any sort of killing (e.g., abortion) does affect mind and body, and does cause pain and suffering. Abortion’s effect on the mind and body is what should be avoided, even if the soul itself remains free and un-harmed.
I expressed myself poorly in responding to Valke2. I think I’ll try again.
G
Good_Daughter
Guest
It seems that whyme likes to focus on the soul and ignore the body with statements like “there will be other bodies”. Small consolation for a preborn human whose limbs are being torn apart. Unless, of course, you believe the preborn are not alive, in which case it’s much easier to wax poetic about the soul and its journeys.
C
Chris-WA
Guest
Your feelings are correct in this matter. It is Catholic teaching that God created the universe, and all of us, out of nothing-- simply by His will. That’s what it means to be omnipotent. God requires nothing apart from Himself to do anything. He is the creator, and everything else is created. That has a lot to do with why we don’t believe God was once a man on some other world and had another god above Him, as is taught by Mormonism.
Again, He does have a prior knowledge simply because he knows all that was, that is, and that will be all at the same time. There is no time for God. If we knew God before our birth, I suspect there would be biblical scripture to that effect also, but there isn’t. God knew us, but there is no indication that we knew Him.
Fair enough. Interpretation of scripture based on single verses out of context can lead one down the wrong path.
G
Good_Daughter
Guest
It’s more than a feeling, Catholic teaching is that God creates us out of nothing. God, unlike us, is all-knowing and outside of time. He knows everything that is, ever was and ever will be in time, including the people he creates (like the prophet Jeremiah).
The LDS do have a different interpretation of Jeremiah 2:5 than historic Christianity. It is a personal interpretation they feel free to make due to the alleged “apostacy” of Christianity. They’re on their own with this interpretation and, as they freely admit, not infallible.
G
Good_Daughter
Guest
Catholics believe the human soul is eternal. We take consolation in our great hope that the souls of the aborted are in heaven. I’ve never seen anything but wild speculation that says our souls are “recycled”, as Mormons may believe.
God’s creations are thwarted (and killed, and manipulated, and lead astray) all the time. It’s God who will not be thwarted. That is why our souls long for him.
R
RebeccaJ
Guest
I don’t think you understand the Catholic interpretation, otherwise, why ask how can this be?
The lds interpretation is only possible within the belief of the lds that God was once a man. This implies that God is not infinite, existing always, with no beginning and no end. Of course such a limited God cannot be omnipresent.
The True God is infinite, and does not exist on a straight timeline as the lds define. He did not evolve but has always been.
God is all knowing and that knowledge extends around your limited view that He can only know what you know in the way that you know it.
In short: you limit God in how you interpret this passage.
Z
zerinus
Guest
The scriptures inform us that we did know God before we were born:
Job 38:
4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
These “sons of God” who “shouted for joy” existed before the foundations of the earth were laid, which means that they existed before mortality had begun. And who were those “sons of God”? Us of course, as Paul explains:
Hebrews 2:
10 For it became him , for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation [Jesus] perfect through sufferings.
zerinus
R
RebeccaJ
Guest
M
majick275
Guest
what an irrelevant cobbling of proof texts.
Job 38:4 actually make suit clear that WE weren’t around when god created the world. (ex nihilo BTW)
the sons of God in this case are the angels whom he created.
Hebrews 2:10 is completely unrelated to this. It is also interesting that a Mormon would refer to the that particular book as it makes clear that prophets are no longer required, the temple is obsolete and many other principles that appear to contradict the claims of Joseph Smith.
Job 38:4 actually make suit clear that WE weren’t around when god created the world. (ex nihilo BTW)
the sons of God in this case are the angels whom he created.
Hebrews 2:10 is completely unrelated to this. It is also interesting that a Mormon would refer to the that particular book as it makes clear that prophets are no longer required, the temple is obsolete and many other principles that appear to contradict the claims of Joseph Smith.
G
Good_Daughter
Guest
Before we were born we were in utero. No problem knowing God there, just ask John the Baptist. Can Mormons show proof texts for us knowing God before we were concieved?
Z
zerinus
Guest
C
Chris-WA
Guest
Z
zerinus
Guest
There are other scriptures that confirm the pre-existence of spirits. Here is another:
John 9:
1 And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth.
2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?
3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.
How could he have sinned to be born blind, unless he lived before he was born? Jesus didn’t respond to that question by saying, “Don’t be stupid; how could somebody sin before he is born?” Instead He replied, “Neither . . .,” which suggests that he could have sinned; but that in this instance that was not the cause of his being born blind. Hence men existed before they were born, and were even in a situation to be able to sin. They had freewill, and options to choose good and evil were presented to them, and they were able to make that choice. Satan and his crew chose the evil course, rebelled against God, and were cast out, whence came the “devil and his angels”. Those who remained faithful were given the opportunity to be born into mortality and progress towards eternal life, and to greater glories in the kingdom of God. Makes sense, right?
zerinus
- Status