Mormons, where did St. paul say that.....

[EviPolevhia]

If those reasons were actually factual not-open-to-interpretation reasons and not articles of faith, when why is there so much dissension amoung denominations? I don’t take it on faith the Earth is round, there are actual reasons. I don’t take it on faith that internal combustion engines work, there are actual reasons. What “actual reasons” do you have that a Mormon looks at and says ‘Nope’, where as you look at his “actual reasons” and say the same thing? I have a hard time seeing dozens and hundreds of different religious groups having different facts about the same planet.

 

[cmforte]

If those reasons were actually factual not-open-to-interpretation reasons and not articles of faith, when why is there so much dissension amoung denominations? I don’t take it on faith the Earth is round, there are actual reasons. I don’t take it on faith that internal combustion engines work, there are actual reasons. What “actual reasons” do you have that a Mormon looks at and says ‘Nope’, where as you look at his “actual reasons” and say the same thing? I have a hard time seeing dozens and hundreds of different religious groups having different facts about the same planet.

Now you are mixing up the word “reason” with “evidence.” I said my Catholic belief is not based on blind trust in the Catholic Church. There is a reason I think this. It’s not because the Catholic Church says I have to. It was a not an “article of faith”. My own reading of the Bible and of Church history led me to the RCC. Not an “article of faith”.

-Chris

 

[EviPolevhia]

Would not a reason be based on evidence of some sort? In this situation the two would be connected.

 

[Janderich]

"janderich:

I believe Joseph Smith because the Holy Ghost has borne witness to me that his words are true.

Did the Holy Spirit say why?

"janderich:

Not only that, but the Holy Ghost has testified to me that the book he translated, the Book of Mormon is of God.

Again, why?

The Lord through the Holy Ghost reveals truth precept by precept, and line upon line, here a little and there a little. A first witness usually comes simply that the BofM is true. But as one studies, continues to act in faith, and prays, a witness comes of specific truths found within the book itself. This is the same with words from a prophet such as Joseph Smith. Over time these truths combine to form a sure foundation.

Sometimes it’s not God answering. And again, my curiosity here is sincere. I told you why I’m a Catholic. Could it not have been the Holy Spirit that guided me, too?

The Holy Spirit provides a witness of truth. Thus he may witness that Jesus is the Christ or that Christ died and atoned for our sins. The Spirit may may also witness the truth of passages in the Bible etc. So yes he may have guided you in some ways to where you are today. I am simply saying that there is more to find out by this same method. For example, there is little room for fence sitting with Joseph Smith or the Book of Mormon. They are either true or it is a phenomenal lie. Few come to this church strictly based on logic. And if they do come this way, they don’t last long. I’m not saying that what I believe is not logical but there are too many unknowns, there are too many incredible statements. Thus there is a clear way to know that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is true and it simply takes someone acting by faith and asking God weather these polarizing and incredible things are actually true.

 

[TexanKnight]

The Lord through the Holy Ghost reveals truth precept by precept, and line upon line, here a little and there a little. A first witness usually comes simply that the BofM is true. But as one studies, continues to act in faith, and prays, a witness comes of specific truths found within the book itself. This is the same with words from a prophet such as Joseph Smith. Over time these truths combine to form a sure foundation.

The Holy Spirit provides a witness of truth. Thus he may witness that Jesus is the Christ or that Christ died and atoned for our sins. The Spirit may may also witness the truth of passages in the Bible etc. So yes he may have guided you in some ways to where you are today. I am simply saying that there is more to find out by this same method. For example, there is little room for fence sitting with Joseph Smith or the Book of Mormon. They are either true or it is a phenomenal lie. Few come to this church strictly based on logic. And if they do come this way, they don’t last long. I’m not saying that what I believe is not logical but there are too many unknowns, there are too many incredible statements. Thus there is a clear way to know that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is true and it simply takes someone acting by faith and asking God weather these polarizing and incredible things are actually true.

Only a Church built on lies would tell you not to use logic. God gave us intellect for a reason. Yes, we need to have faith and trust the Spirit…but it also needs LOGIC. For example…I believe the Bible is the Word of God. That takes faith. B ut the fact I can go to places mentioned in the Bible and see places where things happened that are mentioned in the Bible gives some credibility to what I believe.

That is impossible to do with the Book of Mormon. That is because it is a book of fiction.

 

[EviPolevhia]

Few come to this church strictly based on logic. And if they do come this way, they don’t last long. I’m not saying that what I believe is not logical but there are too many unknowns, there are too many incredible statements. Thus there is a clear way to know that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is true and it simply takes someone acting by faith and asking God weather these polarizing and incredible things are actually true.

Sounds pretty much along the same lines of what I was saying.

 

[EviPolevhia]

Only a Church built on lies would tell you not to use logic.

Where did he ever say that he, the Book of Mormon, or the Church of JC of LDS tell people to not use logic?

…the fact I can go to places mentioned in the Bible and see places where things happened that are mentioned in the Bible gives some credibility to what I believe.

That is impossible to do with the Book of Mormon. That is because it is a book of fiction.

Going to Nazareth doesn’t prove Jesus. Going to New York doesn’t prove Spiderman. How does going to a location prove a tale that supposedly happened at that location? As a side note I don’t think the Mormons insist on locations that don’t exist. But I am certain non-Mormons can agree that people and events that Mormons claim don’t exist/didn’t happen. For example, Missouri is still Missouri, whether or not Eden ever was there.

 

[TexanKnight]

Where did he ever say that he, the Book of Mormon, or the Church of JC of LDS tell people to not use logic?

Did I say he did? I am Ex-LDS and have heard the speech many times. Thanks!

Going to Nazareth doesn’t prove Jesus. Going to New York doesn’t prove Spiderman. How does going to a location prove a tale that supposedly happened at that location? As a side note I don’t think the Mormons insist on locations that don’t exist. But I am certain non-Mormons can agree that people and events that Mormons claim don’t exist/didn’t happen. For example, Missouri is still Missouri, whether or not Eden ever was there

Ah…you were unable to catch my point. I apologize. Let me simplify for you.

Yes, the mere existence of places do not prove anything…however the NON-EXISTENCE of places should ring a bell. The Bible says Jesus was crucified at Golgatha by Romans. History proves the Romans used crucifixion to kill. I can go to Golgatha and walk the place where Jesus was crucified. Does that PROVE Jesus was crucified and was God? Nope. But it adds credibility to the story. That simply cannot be done with the Book of Mormon.

If this is still too difficult, please let me know and I will try to simply it some more. Thanks!

.

 

[EviPolevhia]

Did I say he did?

The way you started off the beginning of your post…

Only a Church built on lies would tell you not to use logic.

Seems to indicate you were speaking to him.

The Bible says Jesus was crucified at Golgatha by Romans. History proves the Romans used crucifixion to kill. I can go to Golgatha and walk the place where Jesus was crucified. Does that PROVE Jesus was crucified and was God? Nope. But it adds credibility to the story.

It only adds as much credibility as me saying “I had a million dollars in my garage. Look, I can take you to my garage. The million isn’t there but you can look at my garage.” That is to say, such a small amount of credibility as to be meaningless. The part of what I am saying with “I had a million dollars in my garage” isn’t needing to prove the garage part, it’s needing to prove the million dollars part since it can be accepted as a given that I have a garage. People tend to have garages. People don’t tend to leave a million dollars in them.

Likewise it could be accepted as a given that an outspoken Jew in Roman controlled Judea would be executed, and one of the forms of execution is crucifixion. Like showing someone my garage, the credibility added is so small as to be negligible if you’re trying to use the existence of Golgotha to show anything more then the existence of Golgotha.

That simply cannot be done with the Book of Mormon.

Sure it can.

 

[TexanKnight]

The way you started off the beginning of your post…

Seems to indicate you were speaking to him.

be careful how things seem. That is what led me into the LDS Church in the first place. It SEEMED true…

It only adds as much credibility as me saying “I had a million dollars in my garage. Look, I can take you to my garage. The million isn’t there but you can look at my garage.” That is to say, such a small amount of credibility as to be meaningless. The part of what I am saying with “I had a million dollars in my garage” isn’t needing to prove the garage part, it’s needing to prove the million dollars part since it can be accepted as a given that I have a garage. People tend to have garages. People don’t tend to leave a million dollars in them.

I can see the point still escapes. I am not sure how to make it simpler for you. But let me try again. Lets say I was to prove that a crime was committed. I say the crime happened at 4th and Miller Way. Well, there IS not Miller Way in town. How is my credibility? Yet, I say it happened at 4th and Main…there IS a 4th and Main. Now, that, by itself, does not mean a crime was committed…but it DOES lend SOME credibility…because the place actually exists.

Sure it can.

Actually, it can’t…and you know it. But I will play along. Show me Bountiful from the Book of Mormon. Show me Zerehemla…I will be waiting

 

[EviPolevhia]

Yet, I say it happened at 4th and Main…there IS a 4th and Main. Now, that, by itself, does not mean a crime was committed…but it DOES lend SOME credibility…because the place actually exists.

It lends a negligible amount to you as a witness, it lends -no- credibility to whether or not a crime was committed there, and all it actually does prove is that the place exists.

Actually, it can’t…and you know it.

Stop being stubborn and listen. Just like you can go walk at Golgotha where Jesus died, you can go walk at Adam-ondi-Ahman where Adam and Eve lived after being cast out of the Garden. You can believe Jesus existed and was killed at Golgotha, or not, Golgotha still exists. You can believe Adam and Eve lived in Missouri and walk around at Adam-ondi-Ahman, or not, -the place still exists-. And that is my point.

Show me Bountiful from the Book of Mormon. Show me Zerehemla…I will be waiting

There’s two pictures here.

You can’t prove that they’re one or the other are not the lands mentioned any more then I can’t prove Christ didn’t die at Golgotha.

 

[Z_Ninja]

It lends a negligible amount to you as a witness, it lends -no- credibility to whether or not a crime was committed there, and all it actually does prove is that the place exists.
That’s where CSI: Golgotha comes in. They can prove a crime happened and who did it. Get David Caruso on the case.

 

[EviPolevhia]

That’s where CSI: Golgotha comes in. They can prove a crime happened and who did it. Get David Caruso on the case.

Only if there’s someone shouting Amen in the background when he delivers the one-liner.

 

[TexanKnight]

It lends a negligible amount to you as a witness, it lends -no- credibility to whether or not a crime was committed there, and all it actually does prove is that the place exists.

That is what I said. It does not prove a crime was committed, but the witness is more credible than the one who says the crime was committed in a place that does not exist. Geez, I can’t make it ant simpler for you

Stop being stubborn and listen. Just like you can go walk at Golgotha where Jesus died, you can go walk at Adam-ondi-Ahman where Adam and Eve lived after being cast out of the Garden. You can believe Jesus existed and was killed at Golgotha, or not, Golgotha still exists. You can believe Adam and Eve lived in Missouri and walk around at Adam-ondi-Ahman, or not, -the place still exists-. And that is my point.

The problem is, Adam and Eve were not cast out in Missouri and there is not evidence to support that. Just as important, your argument was a red herring because I specifically said BOOK OF MORMON places. I was even more specific asking about Zerehemla. You still dodge that. Go figure.

There’s two pictures here.

You can’t prove that they’re one or the other are not the lands mentioned any more then I can’t prove Christ didn’t die at Golgotha.

 

[EviPolevhia]

…the witness is more credible than the one who says the crime was committed in a place that does not exist.

I do grant that, just so long as we are clear that it does not affect their credibility as to whether or not a crime took place.

Adam and Eve were not cast out in Missouri and there is not evidence to support that

Please provide evidence that Jesus was crucified at Golgotha then. And since the words of Smith aren’t enough to lend any credibility for Adam and Even in Missouri, I won’t accept the Gospel writers for Golgotha.

I was even more specific asking about Zerehemla. You still dodge that. Go figure.

There’s two pictures here.

You can’t prove that they’re one or the other are not the lands mentioned any more then I can’t prove Christ didn’t die at Golgotha.

 

[TexanKnight]

I do grant that, just so long as we are clear that it does not affect their credibility as to whether or not a crime took place.

This is the THIRD time I have said it does not prove a crime was committed. I hope THIS time it is clear. But, again, as a witness, you are more credible when you discuss a crime happening at an actual location than the witness who makes up a location

Please provide evidence that Jesus was crucified at Golgotha then. And since the words of Smith aren’t enough to lend any credibility for Adam and Even in Missouri, I won’t accept the Gospel writers for Golgotha.

Don’t need to. It is a red herring argument from someone who needs red herring arguments. I could care less if you believe Jesus was crucified. Golgatha and Jerusalem are real places that have been attested by by millions of people, unlike Missouri claims by ONE man who was a convicted con man.

 

[EviPolevhia]

Golgatha and Jerusalem are real places that have been attested by by millions of people, unlike Missouri claims by ONE man who was a convicted con man.

You state a location for the first part and a claim in the second part, those are hardly equal. Could I not say “Missouri is a real place that has been attested by millions of people, unlike Golgotha claims by FOUR men who we know nothing about”

 

[TexanKnight]

You state a location for the first part and a claim in the second part, those are hardly equal. Could I not say “Missouri is a real place that has been attested by millions of people, unlike Golgotha claims by FOUR men who we know nothing about”

Another red Herring. And you know it.

The fact is…no one other than Mormons claim Missouri is the Garden of Eden. And no scientist, archaeologist, historian, linguist, or geographer who is not LDS will give any credibility to the Book of Mormon as anything other than fiction.

Now, you may proceed to your next red herring.

 

[pmccombs]

And that, friends, is why we have so many varieties of Christianity. We all individually listen for word from the Holy Ghost. Problem being, of course, that either the Holy Spirit lies to us (not likely) or we don’t hear Him properly. The Magisterium has listened to the Holy Spirit for 2,000 years. So I’ll listen to them. Most of my Evangelical friends listen for the Holy Spirit, and none has heard any reference to Joseph Smith.

SummitJim, you made a very important point. I wish I had read this earlier.

It is apparent that this Holy Spirit is a capricious being, for he confirms in a similar way the faith of many people who subscribe to diverse and often conflicting beliefs. How can this be? It is a great source of my agnosticism. The Mormon is confirmed by the Holy Spirit, the Magisterium is also, and the Evangelical likewise. How can one know the Truth? We either must rely on tradition, or on the views of experts. Every religion has both.

I am of the belief that the Holy Spirit, in sprite of its often very remarkable and sublime influence, is a psychological phenomenon and little more.

 

[pmccombs]

The fact is…no one other than Mormons claim Missouri is the Garden of Eden. And no scientist, archaeologist, historian, linguist, or geographer who is not LDS will give any credibility to the Book of Mormon as anything other than fiction.

I believe the Old Testament story of Moses suffers from a similar problem. William Dever is among the archaeologists most sympathetic to any historical veracity in the Bible, yet his own writings cast immense doubt over the whole thing. Modern research on the New Testament, such as that done by Bart Ehrman, is turning up equally difficult issues. The arguments you level against Mormonism are the same arguments that New Atheists level–with great confidence–against your Church also. It is unbecoming and hypocritical for us who walk by faith and not by sight, to criticize the faith of others by recycling the arguments of our own enemies. That’s just my opinion.