Mormons; why don't you have crosses in your churches?

[dianaiad]

Rebecca J,
Your father was completely wrong to insist you go to seminary, and the teacher was wrong to tell him you weren’t going. I think anyone who was “forced” or “coerced” as a youth about religious decisions in their life, has been hurt in a major way and God will be very tender and non-judging about the impact on the particular youth who faced that in their life.

Have a good weekend.

Well…I have mixed feelings about that one. YES, I believe that her father should have allowed her to skip seminary. Absolutely. However, (and you know this, but other people here might not) Utah has a ‘released time’ seminary, so that you can attend church classes during the day. You leave the public school campus and go next door (usually) where there is a ‘seminary’ building. To the students it’s pretty much like just another class, but in terms of the government, the difference is huge; Seminary is not public property, is not paid for in public funds, and does not take away from public education time.

However, (and quite a few kids do this) there is another option. Rather than attend seminary, a high school student might opt to take another elective class in school, instead: another art class, or an advanced AP class. Those students who want to take seminary TOO sometimes can attend church classes before school (that’s what I did, though since I lived in California, I didn’t have a choice in that; it was 5AM or nothing.)

Rebecca’s Dad should have, IMHO, allowed her to drop seminary and take an elective, instead.

 

[dianaiad]

ParkerD, my father is a good man, a very true believing mormon, who has given me nothing but love. I have never once blamed him for me leaving mormonism, and neither should you.

I’m not blaming your Dad, by the way. It just would have been better for you, I think.

 

[ParkerD]

ParkerD, my father is a good man, a very true believing mormon, who has given me nothing but love. I have never once blamed him for me leaving mormonism, and neither should you.

Rebecca J,
I think you shared an experience that had an impact on your life. It’s not blame, but every action by a parent has an impact on the child or the youth, especially related to religion because the parents are a “stand-in” for you-know-who when the child is young.

 

[dianaiad]

I agree with the freedom of expression statement, after all, it is a constitutional right. I grew up in an environment where we feared the consequences of making any kind of statement that might offend LDS. Never mind how offensive they were to us.

Wow. Jerusha, if the Mormons of your youth were half as offensive to you as you are to Mormons on this forum, it must have been the purest hell for you growing up.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Rebecca J,
I think you shared an experience that had an impact on your life. It’s not blame, but every action by a parent has an impact on the child or the youth, especially related to religion because the parents are a “stand-in” for you-know-who when the child is young.

No, parents are not stand-ins for God. Really, this is one of the most damaging teachings of your church.

My parents did like most parents do, the best they can, following their hearts and their beliefs. I have no regrets, and neither should they. All things work out for the good, and I would not be where I am, in Christ’s Church, had I never questioned.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Rebecca’s Dad should have, IMHO, allowed her to drop seminary and take an elective, instead.

I had a friend who did this. It was quite the shock, in that, the idea had never crossed my mind and it was something I knew was about as possible as flying to the moon. When my dad asked me why I wasn’t going to seminary, I said I didn’t want to. His response was that he didn’t want to go to work every day, but he did. So I went, because that is what you do in life, what you don’t want to do.

It’s alright. Where else would I learn that the second coming was pinned down to 1997? Where else in the world would I be taught that dark skin color was a curse, walk across the parking lot to a science class, and learn about natural selection? It was a perfect learning environment for mormon kids to be in. One of my sunday school teachers lamented the fact that most of those raised in our ward did not marry in a temple. Encouraging us to not follow the trend. I’d say most of us figured out what is truth, and what is not.

 

[ParkerD]

No, parents are not stand-ins for God. Really, this is one of the most damaging teachings of your church.

My parents did like most parents do, the best they can, following their hearts and their beliefs. I have no regrets, and neither should they. All things work out for the good, and I would not be where I am, in Christ’s Church, had I never questioned.

Rebecca J,
I was talking about how a child views their parent when they are a year old, three years old, four and five and six years old. If they are dominated and controlled at those young ages, then my personal belief (not my church’s teaching, as far as I’m aware) is that they will view God as in some sense dominating and to be feared, rather than having the feeling that they are free to choose and learn from their own mistakes and that God is loving and encouraging and “freeing” as far as coercion or human fear is concerned.

I also think youth rebel against feeling like they are or were made to do things against their own will, whether outwardly in words or inwardly in their own feelings and attitudes.

 

[dianaiad]

I had a friend who did this. It was quite the shock, in that, the idea had never crossed my mind and it was something I knew was about as possible as flying to the moon. When my dad asked me why I wasn’t going to seminary, I said I didn’t want to. His response was that he didn’t want to go to work every day, but he did. So I went, because that is what you do in life, what you don’t want to do.

It’s alright. Where else would I learn that the second coming was pinned down to 1997?

Say, what???

Where else in the world would I be taught that dark skin color was a curse, walk across the parking lot to a science class, and learn about natural selection? It was a perfect learning environment for mormon kids to be in. One of my sunday school teachers lamented the fact that most of those raised in our ward did not marry in a temple. Encouraging us to not follow the trend. I’d say most of us figured out what is truth, and what is not.

Well, Rebecca, I have a feeling that if your teachers truly were talking about the millenium happening in 1997, they needed a few Paul or Peter letters. (shaking head…)

 

[dianaiad]

I had a friend who did this. It was quite the shock, in that, the idea had never crossed my mind and it was something I knew was about as possible as flying to the moon. When my dad asked me why I wasn’t going to seminary, I said I didn’t want to. His response was that he didn’t want to go to work every day, but he did. So I went, because that is what you do in life, what you don’t want to do.

It’s alright. Where else would I learn that the second coming was pinned down to 1997? Where else in the world would I be taught that dark skin color was a curse, walk across the parking lot to a science class, and learn about natural selection? It was a perfect learning environment for mormon kids to be in. One of my sunday school teachers lamented the fact that most of those raised in our ward did not marry in a temple. Encouraging us to not follow the trend. I’d say most of us figured out what is truth, and what is not.

Oh, in re. taking an elective–I dunno why that would have been a shock. Sometimes, when I read the things you claim to have been taught, I start wondering what planet your teachers came from, to be quite honest.

Now I went to school in the early sixties, and my cousins were Utah types—every single one of them spent at least one high school year choosing the ‘elective’ rather than seminary during the day. They all decided they wanted band more than they wanted to sleep in, so they took early morning seminary instead of release time seminary. It was very common, amof; if you were in the band, or were on the cheerleading squad, or wanted to take art AND music–or just wanted to graduate early (that was also an option) then you chose the early morning seminary and the elective during the day.

Now me? I was in California. I didn’t have a choice. I went to seminary at 5AM. period.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Rebecca J,
I was talking about how a child views their parent when they are a year old, three years old, four and five and six years old. If they are dominated and controlled at those young ages, then my personal belief (not my church’s teaching, as far as I’m aware) is that they will view God as in some sense dominating and to be feared, rather than having the feeling that they are free to choose and learn from their own mistakes and that God is loving and encouraging and “freeing” as far as coercion or human fear is concerned.

I also think youth rebel against feeling like they are or were made to do things against their own will, whether outwardly in words or inwardly in their own feelings and attitudes.

ParkerD, I never felt I was rebelling. Quite the contrary, I was a good, obedient, child. I watched. I paid attention. I was ever the observer as a kid. I had what I had been taught. I had what I observed. They didn’t match. Beginning at age 10 or 11, I noticed disparities. This didn’t have anything to do with choice or what I knew about God. It was my natural inclination towards observation, making connections, noticing things that didn’t make sense. This is the kid who skipped a grade in math, and later taught herself how to program computers. The same skills are involved.

I will say, there is no venue, or way, to voice these disparities in the mormon church. Certainly not as a child, or teenager, where the mantra is “obedience”. I did learn at a very young age to keep what I noticed, to myself. Mormons prefer this. You can see this preference here, in this forum.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Oh, in re. taking an elective–I dunno why that would have been a shock. Sometimes, when I read the things you claim to have been taught, I start wondering what planet your teachers came from, to be quite honest.

Now I went to school in the early sixties, and my cousins were Utah types—every single one of them spent at least one high school year choosing the ‘elective’ rather than seminary during the day. They all decided they wanted band more than they wanted to sleep in, so they took early morning seminary instead of release time seminary. It was very common, amof; if you were in the band, or were on the cheerleading squad, or wanted to take art AND music–or just wanted to graduate early (that was also an option) then you chose the early morning seminary and the elective during the day.

Now me? I was in California. I didn’t have a choice. I went to seminary at 5AM. period.

Yeah Diana, I know that I had a very sheltered childhood. The things mormons call speculation today, I was taught as God’s truth. I know about 1980 it started to change. I have a Mormon friend who is about 10 years younger than I am. 15 or so years ago we discussed and compared the things we were taught. She didn’t believe what I told her either. I’ve had mormons call me “fundamentalist”, for the things I told them I was taught as a kid. I can’t help what I was taught.

We never had early morning seminary in our area. It was only release time.

One morning I was dropping my daughter off at her jr. high, and there went one of my seminary teachers, strolling across the parking lot from the school to the seminary, right in front of my car. He was the one who had the second coming pinned down to 1997. I really, really, really wanted to get out of my car and ask him what happened.

In our seminary class, we once listened to this faked up radio newscast of the second coming. Good times.

 

[ParkerD]

ParkerD, I never felt I was rebelling. Quite the contrary, I was a good, obedient, child. I watched. I paid attention. I was ever the observer as a kid. I had what I had been taught. I had what I observed. They didn’t match. Beginning at age 10 or 11, I noticed disparities. This didn’t have anything to do with choice or what I knew about God. It was my natural inclination towards observation, making connections, noticing things that didn’t make sense. This is the kid who skipped a grade in math, and later taught herself how to program computers. The same skills are involved.

I will say, there is no venue, or way, to voice these disparities in the mormon church. Certainly not as a child, or teenager, where the mantra is “obedience”. I did learn at a very young age to keep what I noticed, to myself. Mormons prefer this. You can see this preference here, in this forum.

Rebecca J,
You should have had the welcomed opportunity to voice your concerns and certainly to choose not to take seminary. What can I say? I had some Sunday School teachers who had an obedience “mantra”, and my dad had me eat some asparagus once when I didn’t want to (actually, I said no and didn’t eat it. Now I love asparagus.) But I had other teachers who welcomed questions of all kinds, and weren’t afraid to be asked whatever questions came up, and my parents allowed choices without coercion generally, except when it came to asparagus. In my family, we’re all able to laugh about that particular incident now. Life is a learning process for parents and children, both.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Rebecca J,
You should have had the welcomed opportunity to voice your concerns and certainly to choose not to take seminary. What can I say? I had some Sunday School teachers who had an obedience “mantra”, and my dad had me eat some asparagus once when I didn’t want to (actually, I said no and didn’t eat it. Now I love asparagus.) But I had other teachers who welcomed questions of all kinds, and weren’t afraid to be asked whatever questions came up, and my parents allowed choices without coercion generally, except when it came to asparagus. In my family, we’re all able to laugh about that particular incident now. Life is a learning process for parents and children, both.

Joseph Smith isn’t asparagus and God isn’t an acquired taste.

My ending analysis: your church creeps me the hell out.

 

[dianaiad]

Yeah Diana, I know that I had a very sheltered childhood. The things mormons call speculation today, I was taught as God’s truth.

It was speculation then, too. Believe me on that one!!!

I know about 1980 it started to change. I have a Mormon friend who is about 10 years younger than I am. 15 or so years ago we discussed and compared the things we were taught. She didn’t believe what I told her either. I’ve had mormons call me “fundamentalist”, for the things I told them I was taught as a kid. I can’t help what I was taught.

That’s a good word for what you were taught, frankly. The things you claim here sound like they are straight from Short Creek. Definitely not as mainstream as you think it was!

We never had early morning seminary in our area. It was only release time.

One morning I was dropping my daughter off at her jr. high, and there went one of my seminary teachers, strolling across the parking lot from the school to the seminary, right in front of my car. He was the one who had the second coming pinned down to 1997. I really, really, really wanted to get out of my car and ask him what happened.

Oh, why didn’t you? Or…next time you have the urge, can I come watch? Ask him how the millennium is working for him? Oh, wait…was his reasoning something like Christ being born three years before the time assigned to the birth, and the Second Coming being precisely 2000 years after His birth? I’ve heard that speculation several times myself, but not from Mormons. The first time I heard it was from a Four Square Evangelist, and after that from several other fundamentalist Christian types, but I’ve never heard a Mormon propose it. I guess I’ve been sheltered.

In our seminary class, we once listened to this faked up radio newscast of the second coming. Good times.

I vaguely remember something like that. I remember that our seminary teacher and the kids got a case of the giggles. However, (and the memory is coming back…) She turned it into an object lesson on the perils of assuming that we know A; what’s going to happen, B: when it’s going to happen, and C: who is involved. Something about the ‘thief in the night’ scripture, and 'no man knows."

 

[RebeccaJ]

It was speculation then, too. Believe me on that one!!!

That’s a good word for what you were taught, frankly. The things you claim here sound like they are straight from Short Creek. Definitely not as mainstream as you think it was!

I’d agree, except I know too many mormons who were taught the same things, and continue to teach them in your wards today. I can read what I was taught in mormon publications.

Oh, why didn’t you? Or…next time you have the urge, can I come watch? Ask him how the millennium is working for him?

Oh, maybe it happened and we didn’t realize it. I wanted to ask him what his new calculation was, that he was now teaching.

Oh, wait…was his reasoning something like Christ being born three years before the time assigned to the birth, and the Second Coming being precisely 2000 years after His birth? I’ve heard that speculation several times myself, but not from Mormons. The first time I heard it was from a Four Square Evangelist, and after that from several other fundamentalist Christian types, but I’ve never heard a Mormon propose it. I guess I’ve been sheltered.

No, his was much more involved than that. Very complex thing of fixing dates by this thing in the OT, adjusting for calendar changes, etc. I couldn’t repeat it if I tried.

It was a very popular thing at the time, with the magic year 2000 approaching. People were making guesses. Now, mormons seem to like the date 2012. Only three years to go.

I vaguely remember something like that. I remember that our seminary teacher and the kids got a case of the giggles. However, (and the memory is coming back…) She turned it into an object lesson on the perils of assuming that we know A; what’s going to happen, B: when it’s going to happen, and C: who is involved. Something about the ‘thief in the night’ scripture, and 'no man knows."

I found it mildly amusing. It started with someone shot in the street rising from the dead.

 

[sweetnay]

Holey Moley! Rebecca being arm chair “psychologized” by two of the very best!! What an honor–they just can’t fathom that one could actually logic their way out of mormonism and see Jsmith for what he truly was, a con man who elevated his appetite based desires to a level of “holiness” (namely polygamy and god hood). Sick. Really sick.
I commend you Rebecca for actually responding to them…
God Bless You!!

 

[dianaiad]

Joseph Smith isn’t asparagus and God isn’t an acquired taste.

My ending analysis: your church creeps me the hell out.

You know what, Rebecca?

If I had written that about Catholicism in this forum, I would guarantee that the moderators would have censored me or kicked me out of the group.

I think that the double standard here is pretty damned amazing.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Poor Diana, always so persecuted. :crying:

You’ve done your fair share of Catholic bashing. Though, when it comes to anti-Catholicism, you haven’t reached zerinus’ level. ParkerD is in constant proselyte mode and is fond of calling into question people’s level of faith and sincerity. I think we should just all call him “Elder”.

Neither you or I own or run this forum, so neither you or I get to choose who stays and who goes.

 

[NewSeeker]

I enjoyed reading about all of your seminary experiences, Rebecca. I attended seminary during “release time” in grades 9-12 in SLC. I never got the Second Coming predictions like you did (instead, I got that from my mom’s crazy Idaho family, along with beliefs that Saddam Hussein was the antichrist and Proctor and Gamble is part of the Illuminati, see the moon and 13 stars on the label? - so don’t buy their products!!!). My two favorite seminary memories are first, the day the teacher got out a set of 10-12 photos showing a man in various stages of personal grooming and hygeine. He set them out on the metal chalk tray on the chalkboard in sequence and they showed the inevitable progression from perfect LDS missionary style grooming and suit to a sneering con in prison garb. The message? “Don’t let your hair touch your ears and keep your tie tight or you’ll become an axe murderer!” So funny. Even better was the week our teacher waged a personal campaign against rock music. We got to hear Queen juxtaposed against I Am a Child of God (“Now kids, try to stay calm and feel the spirit with Queen; now try it with I Am a Child of God”); he played Led Zeppelin’s Stairway to Heaven backwards and told us the warped sounds were saying “Here’s to my sweet Satan!”. And did you know that AC/DC stands for Anti Christ/Devil’s Children and KISS stands for Knights in Satan’s Service? Oh - and Rush stands for Rulers Under Satan’s Hand. LOL! Those were good times. I wonder what happened to good old Brother Monson? The anti rock music campaign was region wide I think. That same year (if memory serves) a traveling group of students from Rick’s College brought the same show to our stake. I remember hearing an identical mantra during the fireside held at the stake center, along with sound samples, dance demonstrations (slam dancing vs. swing dancing) and more music played backwards. Amazingly, parents and teens were all separated, with grown ups sitting on one side of the chapel and kids on the other. I wonder what the Lord thought about the hosts playing samples of Black Sabbath, Led Zeppelin, and the Sex Pistols in the chapel? So funny. Ah, Utah and Idaho - how do I miss thee!!!

NewSeeker

 

[majick275]

You know what, Rebecca?

If I had written that about Catholicism in this forum, I would guarantee that the moderators would have censored me or kicked me out of the group.

I think that the double standard here is pretty damned amazing.

i really wonder at this mindset coming from a people whose scriptures call us an ABOMINATION and (since we profess the creeds every sunday) CORRUPT…the BoM specifically condemns infant baptism as being of the devil…i could go on and on with BY and Mconkie but there is plenty just in canonized LDS scripture