Mormons; why don't you have crosses in your churches?

[dianaiad]

Ok so I went to that site, and I read through some of the ‘endowment ritual’ i think it was and…its different…ok…to each their own…and i understand and respect that you guys ‘promise not to talk about it’ because you dont want to bring whatever arguements in and demean your beliefs, or however you put it…i can respect that…

but im still curious about the zion=missouri thing…? And a simple yes or no will suffice, do you guys believe that the way to heaven is through monetary gain?? Like you have to earn your way in??

No. We do not. We do believe in the law of tithing, though. Just, by the way, as Catholics do.

You should just post a thread to educate us then, on your mormon beliefs. I, myself personally, am not trying to attack or argue your points, I’m just curious…

Uhmn…It’s a little difficult to answer a question posed in quite that way, though I understand your intent. It’s a little like me asking you if you believe you can purchase advance forgiveness for sins by buying indulgences. How in the world do you answer that one?

(and don’t worry, I know quite well what indulgences are, how they were SUPPOSED to work, even as the idea was very mistreated in the middle ages; don’t yell at me!)

Tithing, we believe, is a commandment of God. Even Christ reaffirmed the idea when He yelled at the Pharisees for violating the spirit of charity by paying tithing of ‘mint and anise,’ but not helping the widows or feeding the poor. This they should have done, He said, and not left the other undone.

Jesus also said “if ye love me, keep my commandments” and if we can, one of those commandments is to give ten percent of our increase to Him. We give it directly to the church, where it is used to pay church expenses; our tithing sees to it that all our buildings are completely paid for, that our Temples are maintained, and that the mission work goes on. Other people who believe in the law of tithing (Catholics, for instance) donate their money to the church, and to the poor, and to other charities of their choice.

We do not do this because it will purchase salvation. We do it because we believe Christ has asked us to. Heaven doesn’t sell tickets. It didn’t when Catholics sold indulgences to folks who didn’t understand the concept, and it doesn’t now.

 

[Jerusha]

What, and you don’t see anything ‘majestic’ about the Mississippi river valley? My, my, how familiarity does breed contempt.

jenlovesyou says she lives in the southwest. She has no familiarity with the Mississippi river valley. However, that river flows through me, and being near it brings me nearer to the Creator.

Perhaps you are bowing to the delusion, again, that any one who irritates you is one of my sock-puppets. :takeoff: Whatever, believe what you want to believe, just don’t impose it on me.

Oh- btw, we used to change the accent on Missouri, and refer to the state of misery. No offense to Missourians, but it was good for a laugh.

 

[dianaiad]

Alright Dianaiad forgive me because perhaps I was taught wrong. I’ve been told different things by Mormons themselves.

I do know that when Mormonism first started out, it wasn’t inclusive of people with more melanin in their skin, aka blacks

Actually, that’s not quite true. There were several African American members converted and baptised by Joseph Smith himself. As well, the church has been very firmly established in the south seas, where almost everybody has skins darker than those of African descent.

I find it hard to believe that racism comes from God. There were several other legitamate reasons of why I left but I do happen to be half-African american so people like Joseph Smith and Brigham Young really bother me. I was also told at one point by a Mormon that I was surely going to hell because I happen to be colored. It’s no wonder why you don’t see too many black Mormons walking around until way after the '70’s.

Well, I’m not going to pretend that Mormons haven’t been as guilty of racism as everyone else in the nation. However, the incident you are recounting, where the Mormon said you were going to hell because you were 'colored?" He was an idiot–and saying something so completely contrary to what we have ever taught that it isn’t even partially funny.

I have never run into that sort of thing, and I’m sorry you did.

 

[dianaiad]

Let the spin begin.

Would you care to elaborate on this, Rebecca? (she says, sweetly…) I don’t suppose YOU have any experience with this issue? Are you African -American? Are you married to one? Are your children African American?

Well, dear, I am not African -American. I did, however, MARRY one and therefore my children are. I am not only aware of racial prejudice against people of color, I am also aware of what people think of white women who marry men of color. It can be very ugly, though it is getting much better.

The one place I never, ever received any grief about it is in the church.

 

[Jerusha]

The one place I never, ever received any grief about it is in the church.

Of course. Non-Mormons of color are DISTINCTLY inferior. Those who recognize that they can be regarded as white if they become Mormon become WHITE-- culturally. That is the modern Mormon spin. Quite different from the 1860-1975 version.

 

[dianaiad]

I wouldn’t call this belief a belief in hell…

With all due respect, Janet, you don’t get to decide what ‘hell’ is. The one thing everybody agrees upon with regard to ‘hell’ is that ‘hell’ is where Satan is. What it’s LIKE varies greatly, but that one attribute is constant–and required.

According to Bruce R. McConkie’s Mormon Doctrine hell will be mostly empty after the resurrection… Meaning that it served as some kind of purgatory and after the resurrection most of those who were in hell get into the Telestial Glory…
“After their resurrection, the great majority of those who have suffered in hell will pass into the telestial kingdom; the balance, cursed as sons of perdition, will be consigned to partake of endless woe with the devil and his angels.” (p. 350)

He is talking about something else; a ‘spirit prison’ where the unjust await the resurrection and the final judgment. The closest equivalent to it would be “purgatory,” though the analogy isn’t exact.

The sons of perdition however are just very few… Mostly the Lucifer and his angels, Cain and maybe a few others like Judas…

Quite possible. We don’t know who goes there, but does it matter? Is there some sort of population requirement for hell to qualify as hell? I mean, that’s a little bloodthirsty, don’t you think?

Even Hitler got all the temple rituals posthumous (somebody actually did get baptised for Hitler!!).

Yep. A relative. Talk about 'coals of fire!"

Women do not end up there at all according to Brigham Young, “Woman must atone for sins committed by the volition of her own choice, but she will never become an angel to the devil, and sin so far as to place herself beyond the reach of mercy.” (Discourse deliver October 8, 1861, p. 6)

Oh, gee, another Journal of Discourses reference. Well, Brigham did love women. I wish he were right about that one, but I have a feeling that women are just as capable of sinning against the Holy Ghost as men are.

Mormon doctrine

Careful, there. Is that “Mormon Doctrine” by McConkie (which isn’t Mormon doctrine) Or “Mormon doctrine” as illustrated by our scriptures?

teaches that those who are “sons of perdition” are those who had a sure and perfect knowledge of the truth, then voluntarily turned from it and committed the “sin unto death.”

Well, in this case, you just might be right about 'Mormon doctrine."

It is very difficult for a person to receive this kind of sure knowledge in the first place. Such persons are normally high-level LDS leaders. Spencer W. Kimball stated, “The sin against the Holy Ghost requires such knowledge that it is manifestly impossible for the rank and file to commit such a sin” (The Miracle o Forgiveness, p.123)" Even apostasy from the Mormon Church does not automatically qualify a person to this punishment.

True. It is a deliberate choice, in sure and pure knowledge. Very difficult to do.

That is watering hell down already… but here comes the peak:
Brigham Young (Journal of Discourses 1:118) and John Widtsoe (Evidence and Reconciliations, pp. 213-214) taught that those sons of perdition will be disorganized and have to begin life all over again in another god’s universe… So where is hell? According to this there is none…

I’m sorry, but Volume 1, page 118 does not say what you claim it does. However, feel free to post the precise quote from it that says that 'those sons of perdition will be disorganized and have to begin life all over again in another god’s universe." Even the quote, by Widstoe, which in your plagiarism you neglected to include, does not say what you claim for it. Widstoe gives the ‘sons of perdition’ a hope that, quite frankly, is straight from his own brain and even he admits has no basis in doctrine.

You might want to start properly attributing your sources. Your post came almost word for word from “Mormon Research Ministries” though you went even further with the word twisting than they did.

here’s the thing: there is no requirement that hell be a place of literal flame and torture.
There is no requirement that it be full of people–everybody, evidently, that you don’t like.
There is no requirement that it adhere to Dante’s description.

Finally, there is this; even if Hell ultimately has only one denizen, Satan, it is still very much hell.

 

[dianaiad]

jenlovesyou says she lives in the southwest. She has no familiarity with the Mississippi river valley. However, that river flows through me, and being near it brings me nearer to the Creator.

Perhaps you are bowing to the delusion, again, that any one who irritates you is one of my sock-puppets. :takeoff: Whatever, believe what you want to believe, just don’t impose it on me.

Oddly enough, Jerusha, I didn’t think of you once when I wrote that. I was referring to the familiarity all Americans have with the USA; or rather, what they think is familiarity. It is interesting to know that you, who actually live there, share that disdain, as evidenced by your joke.

Oh- btw, we used to change the accent on Missouri, and refer to the state of misery. No offense to Missourians, but it was good for a laugh.

 

[Zundrah]

Let the spin begin.

Rebbeca, did mormons have a racist belief in the past or somehting? I’ve heard of this…

 

[dianaiad]

Of course. Non-Mormons of color are DISTINCTLY inferior. Those who recognize that they can be regarded as white if they become Mormon become WHITE-- culturally. That is the modern Mormon spin. Quite different from the 1860-1975 version.

I see. Your evidence that Mormons believe that people of color are DISTINCTLY inferior is that my family and I were not discriminated against by the church or by members of the church?

That’s makes precisely as much sense as most of your other points.

 

[Janet1983]

Rebbeca, did mormons have a racist belief in the past or somehting? I’ve heard of this…

Yep…
I did post about that here…

 

[Jerusha]

I see. Your evidence that Mormons believe that people of color are DISTINCTLY inferior is that my family and I were not discriminated against by the church or by members of the church?

Perhaps if you were to ask a few questions, you might understand why you have not remarried, and your children are still single, given the extremely high value Mormons place on marriage. Mormons do tend to be sneaky about their prejudices.

 

[dianaiad]

Rebbeca, did mormons have a racist belief in the past or somehting? I’ve heard of this…

Until June of 1978, members of African descent could not hold the priesthood. They could join, be baptized, and certainly partake of all the blessings, but hot hold the priesthood themselves. On that June, the priesthood was extended to all worthy male members, including those of African descent.

It wasn’t about the darkness of the skin, by the way; those who were ‘colored’ but NOT of African descent, (like south sea islanders) could and did hold the priesthood.

I don’t know what the problem was. It could have been something as hard to admit as…the early Mormons brought racist ideas into the church when they first joined, and the WHITE Mormons weren’t ready to accept the idea, or worthy enough to deal with it, until they did some major begging. It could be something else. Again, I don’t know.

However, there isn’t a single group of people on the planet (with the possible exception of Quakers…) that does NOT have a racist past. There is more than one “Christian” organization that still does. That we are finally showing signs of getting past it is encouraging.

Now, go talk to the Baptists, for instance, who have been segregated–and have specific conventions specifically for the 'black folks."

Or how about the Catholics, who didn’t ordain a black American to the priesthood until 1886–and there weren’t any AMERICAN Catholic seminaries that would accept Augustine Tolton. He had to go to Rome. His biggest source of discrimination? Fellow Catholics, priests and nuns, who did their level best to destroy him. Frankly, I think he would be a prime candidate for sainthood.

…and you guys have been around…HOW long? The Catholic church was in the Americas…HOW long? It thought WHAT of slavery?

Don’t you DARE criticize us for our ‘racist’ past when your own is so much nastier, ladies and gentlemen.

 

[dianaiad]

Perhaps if you were to ask a few questions, you might understand why you have not remarried, and your children are still single, given the extremely high value Mormons place on marriage. Mormons do tend to be sneaky about their prejudices.

Oh. My.

Jerusha, I didn’t think it was possible, but you have just outdone yourself.

 

[Janet1983]

Perhaps if you were to ask a few questions, you might understand why you have not remarried, and your children are still single, given the extremely high value Mormons place on marriage. Mormons do tend to be sneaky about their prejudices.

How come you get so extremely personal? Sure there is racism in the past of the LDS church and some folks today were raised back then and it still is part of their subconscious mind influencing them to this day… I mean that is just human and I do not doubt that.
I know of people who were children during the Nazi era and they still have some thoughts engrained in them to this day… That however is still no reason to go ahead and drag someone’s personal life into that discussion…
That’s not reproving, rebuking, exhorting with all long suffering and doctrine or even good discussion that is flat out bashing.

 

[Zundrah]

How come you get so extremely personal? Sure there is racism in the past of the LDS church and some folks today were raised back then and it still is part of their subconscious mind influencing them to this day… I mean that is just human and I do not doubt that.
I know of people who were children during the Nazi era and they still have some thoughts engrained in them to this day… That however is still no reason to go ahead and drag someone’s personal life into that discussion…
That’s not reproving, rebuking, exhorting with all long suffering and doctrine or even good discussion that is flat out bashing.

Janet, I just read your signature and I have to say that it is a great saying; lol

“There is nothing that keeps wicked men, at any moment, out of hell,
but the mere pleasure of God.”
Jonathan Edwards

 

[Janet1983]

Don’t you DARE criticize us for our ‘racist’ past when your own is so much nastier, ladies and gentlemen.

It is a fact that the LDS church stated this through their prophets as God-given. If it was different you would be right… there is no reasonable ground for anybody to criticize… but it isn’t.
The LDS church claims (even though I don’t think that word is used) infallibility by “receiving” their teachings from God. Even Hitler who was responsible for Millions of people getting killed (the majority of them Jews) didn’t go that far. He actually only took an idea from a British “scientist” and voila, a racial ideology… It’s all about the gene pool and the evolution of the German race. He did however not in any way state that he did this under orders of God.
A mass murderer is not that prideful…
The LDS church however, even though they “only” excluded black men from the priesthood and shunned them as bearing the mark and cursed, did claim divine authority…
That’s the difference.

 

[Jerusha]

Racism is a human frailty. Catholics recognize that, in that it is a part of original sin, the attitude that “we are good, you are evil”, and something that we must overcome. I do not deny that individual Catholics have been and are racist. The Church teaches against this. It is sin. Such a teaching is alien to Mormon theology.

And that was not a personal attack on Diana and her children. It was a speculation on her social milieu.

 

[4Squarebaby]

It is a fact that the LDS church stated this through their prophets as God-given. If it was different you would be right… there is no reasonable ground for anybody to criticize… but it isn’t.
The LDS church claims (even though I don’t think that word is used) infallibility by “receiving” their teachings from God. Even Hitler who was responsible for Millions of people getting killed (the majority of them Jews) didn’t go that far. He actually only took an idea from a British “scientist” and voila, a racial ideology… It’s all about the gene pool and the evolution of the German race. He did however not in any way state that he did this under orders of God.
A mass murderer is not that prideful…
The LDS church however, even though they “only” excluded black men from the priesthood and shunned them as bearing the mark and cursed, did claim divine authority…
That’s the difference.

And if the Mormon President/prophet is correct then God was at least a decade, if not more behind secular Europe and America.

 

[jenlovesyu]

It is a fact that the LDS church stated this through their prophets as God-given. If it was different you would be right… there is no reasonable ground for anybody to criticize… but it isn’t.
The LDS church claims (even though I don’t think that word is used) infallibility by “receiving” their teachings from God. Even Hitler who was responsible for Millions of people getting killed (the majority of them Jews) didn’t go that far. He actually only took an idea from a British “scientist” and voila, a racial ideology… It’s all about the gene pool and the evolution of the German race. He did however not in any way state that he did this under orders of God.
A mass murderer is not that prideful…
The LDS church however, even though they “only” excluded black men from the priesthood and shunned them as bearing the mark and cursed, did claim divine authority…
That’s the difference.

Thank you for making this point. The early Mormons believed in the inferiority of blacks because it was INDOCTRINATED by their prophets who supposedly received truths from God. The Catholic Church never held such doctrine.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Don’t you DARE criticize us for our ‘racist’ past when your own is so much nastier, ladies and gentlemen.

I can hardly stand to speak to you any more, your posts are so full of poison and disdain for anything not Mormon. In fact, I think I am done speaking to you.

Rebbeca, did mormons have a racist belief in the past or somehting? I’ve heard of this…

Jennifer, to answer your question, the Mormon prophet Brigham Young taught that African Americans were an inferior race. In the coming mormon pantheon, after death, they would be the servants of the whites who were made gods.

The Book of Mormon is nothing but an explanation as to how an advanced civilization appeared, in the midst of savage brown people. These civilization were of course, created by a white race. The Mormon prophet Spencer W. Kimball once commented on how the Native Americans who were living with white Mormon families had the obvious blessing of their skin becoming pale.

I was taught these things, the Mormons over 35 yrs or so here were taught it too. Just now, they spin it, deny it and deflect it. You will notice with Mormons that their most sacred import thing is their temples. They won’t even talk about them. A black person was not allowed to be married or do any of their temple rites. Not until 1978.

As to the deflection here. Popes from 1435 on have condemned slavery, and excommunicated those who practiced it. Some people listen to the popes, others don’t. If people were listening to the popes they would have not been participating in slavery. If they were listening to Brigham Young, they would have been anticipating having African American servants when they became gods.

God is not a respecter of persons. The concept of race is man-made. You have a Mormon prophet pronouncing race as a divine order of things, with white at the top, black at the bottom. No such thing has ever been taught by any Catholic.