Mormons; why don't you have crosses in your churches?

[zerinus]

I cannot believe this thread has 266 posts so far? Why don’t Mormon churches have crosses? Will a Mormon answer this already and let’s move on?

Take a look at post #83. If you didn’t find your answer in all those links, try the link below:

lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=0&sourceId=2934d326b221c010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD

 

[Answersplease]

You are hanging your self with this one, bub.

Is “bub” short for beelzebub?

Your condescending attitude coupled with a signal to your Mormon allies that I am the devil or wicked, just shows your weak position.

From Catholic Answers “Mormon Stumpers”:
catholic.com/library/Mormon_Stumpers.asp

"…all opposition comes ultimately from Satan. So, if you do offer a question or a criticism, be prepared for this reaction.

Many Mormons, including their hierarchy, look upon any criticism—regardless of how honest and sincere—as perverseness inspired by the Evil One."

From Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Smith

When a leading apostle, David W. Patten, raised insulting questions, Smith slapped him in the face and kicked him into the yard.[55] After a warrant was issued for Smith’s arrest on the charge of bank fraud, Smith and Rigdon fled Kirtland for Missouri on the night of January 12, 1838.[56]

 

[RebeccaJ]

Kikkichan,
Are you saying that you believe all of the verses you cited and quoted are talking about putting a symbol of Christ’s crucifixion on your outward apparel in some way, to be “seen of men”? Do you really think you understand the connotations of all of those verses and the verses surrounding them that provide more context to the teaching that is being given?

Are you saying the cross was not a symbol of religion in the NT, as Chris2009 claims?

 

[Answersplease]

It goes to ethos–mote and beam, cast the first stone, all that. YOU HAVE NO RIGHT to criticise Mormons for being racist. None.

Are you saying:YOU HAVE NO RIGHT to correct your children if they sin or misbehave because you yourself are sinful?"

I guess none of the original Apostles could correct anyone either, only Jesus The Christ could.

Hate the sin, love the sinner.

 

[ParkerD]

Are you saying the cross was not a symbol of religion in the NT, as Chris2009 claims?

Hi, Rebecca J,
It was obviously a “literary symbol” meaning that it had significant meaning and was an allusion to the crucifixion of Christ and His having taken upon Himself the sins of humankind, as well as sometimes an allusion to humankind needing to live a “sacrificial life” in some way by taking up their own cross and losing their life in service to others.

But as to whether it was an actual “physical symbol” that was worn or carried, I doubt it. Christ taught more about what goes on in the heart of a person than about what a person wears or carries around with them to be seen of men.

 

[chris2009]

Really?

1 Corinthians
18 The message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Philippians 3:
18 For many, as I have often told you and now tell you even in tears, conduct themselves as enemies of the cross of Christ.

Matthew 10:
38 and whoever does not take up his cross and follow after me is not worthy of me.

Matthew 16:
24 Then Jesus said to his disciples, "Whoever wishes to come after me must deny himself, take up his cross, and follow me.

Mark 8:
34 He summoned the crowd with his disciples and said to them, "Whoever wishes to come after me must deny himself, take up his cross, and follow me.

Luke 9:
23 Then he said to all, "If anyone wishes to come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me.

Luke 14:
27 Whoever does not carry his own cross and come after me cannot be my disciple.

Galations 2:
19 For through the law I died to the law, that I might live for God. I have been crucified with Christ;

Galations 6:
12 It is those who want to make a good appearance in the flesh who are trying to compel you to have yourselves circumcised, only that they may not be persecuted for the cross of Christ.14 But may I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

Ephesians 2:
14 For he is our peace, he who made both one and broke down the dividing wall of enmity, through his flesh, 15 abolishing the law with its commandments and legal claims, that he might create in himself one new person in place of the two, thus establishing peace, 16 and might reconcile both with God, in one body, through the cross, putting that enmity to death by it.

“We Christians wear out our foreheads with the sign of the cross.” (Tertullian, c.200AD)

Tertullian also defends against pagans, who are calling Christians “cross-worshipers”, and would add “they worship that which they deserve”.

You also have to remember that in the first 300 years of Christianity, being a Christian meant the death penalty. Christians in general did not flaunt their beliefs if they wished to live. A practice developed where the cross was hidden in other symbols, such as the anchor and less common the trident.

The sign of the cross, that is making the sign with your hand, was in used in the earliest times. The earliest was making the sign using your own finger on your own forehead. Tertullian speaks of a woman signing her bed before retiring for the night.

Are you suggesting Christ and the apostles wore crosses around their necks? Did their churches have crosses in them? I don’t think you mean this. The cross as a Christian symbol came into use in the second century and the crucifix did not appear until the fifth century. The apostles were killed by about 100 AD and most leaders and Christians were killed by 200 AD by the Romans. By 300 AD changes in doctrine were well under way with the Great Apostasy – Constantine and the Council of Nicene changed the very doctrine of God.

The Jewish Encyclopedia states:

“The cross as a Christian symbol or “seal” came into use at least as early as the second century (see “Apost. Const.” iii. 17; Epistle of Barnabas, xi.-xii.; Justin, “Apologia,” i. 55-60; “Dial. cum Tryph.” 85-97); and the marking of a cross upon the forehead and the chest was regarded as a talisman against the powers of demons (Tertullian, “De Corona,” iii.; Cyprian, “Testimonies,” xi. 21-22; Lactantius, “Divinæ Institutiones,” iv. 27, and elsewhere). Accordingly the Christian Fathers had to defend themselves, as early as the second century, against the charge of being worshipers of the cross, as may be learned from Tertullian, “Apologia,” xii., xvii., and Minucius Felix, “Octavius,” xxix. Christians used to swear by the power of the cross.”

 

[Answersplease]

Now the thing is, Catholics and Catholicism seem to have gotten their acts together, after a millennium and a half (and you may want to leave it at that, since claiming two millenia of existence actually makes it worse…) and that is very, very encouraging and good.

How nice of you to take only a pound of flesh instead of going for the kill.

That is very, very encouraging.

 

[chris2009]

Where did you learn that bit about the cross, HS seminary?

Are you suggesting Jesus, Peter and Paul all wore or worshipped crosses? Enlighten me with your superior wisdom.

 

[Answersplease]

Tell me. Do you really think that criticizing Mormonism because of our past history with people of color is a wise thing for you to do?

When it comes to building a harmonious physical society, I would’nt bring up past events from any religion.

But what does it profit a man to gain the whole world and lose his soul?

There can only be one Truth.

Mormons say the Truth is one thing.

The majority of Christian groups (if not all of them) say the Momons are wrong.

The salvation of souls is too important, no good Christian would sacrifice the salvation of souls just to have a physically harmonious society.

The Holy Bible itself says that there won’t be any true harmony until the return of Jesus as The Judge.

 

[chris2009]

Probably… If the cross wasn’t that important, why would Peter (according to Origen) have chosen to be crucified upside down as he didn’t see himself worthy to die on the upright cross as out Lord did?
The cross is more than just a plain means of execution. Since early Christianity the cross is a symbol for our salvation. (Meaning salvation, not just Mormon salvation which equals resurrection.)
The cross was used, though rarely and the Christian fish was very popular… However, the cross symbol was already associated with Christians in the second century… (see Wikipedia and their ton of sources…)

I agree the cross was used by Christians as a symbol by the second century, but not before then. Thousands of people were crucified by the Romans. Peter didn’t feel worthy to die the way Christ did I suppose. I can see the sacred teaching of Christ dying on the cross, however, no prophet of God ever instructed members to wear the cross as a symbol or worship the cross as a symbol. All idol and symbol worship was more of a Pagan practice. These things evolved over time through the centuries.

 

[chris2009]

I cannot believe this thread has 266 posts so far? Why don’t Mormon churches have crosses? Will a Mormon answer this already and let’s move on?

I think we already have several times. But the topic seems to keep changing.

 

[Answersplease]

Here’s the deal; before 1978 no black could hold the priesthood in Mormonism. It was an official policy.

A racist policy Mormons believe came from God to their ‘prophets.’ A policy never found in the Church actually started by Christ.

Perhaps I should use this as an illustration of the apostasy, then? Because if it was 'never found in the church actually started by Christ," Catholics certainly found it in their own practices and traditions.

Again, the actions of sinners is NOT part of the Catholic Church’s DOGMA.

You continually presume to tell Catholics what their Church teaches and believes.

If the racist policy is a sign of the Apostasy, then the Great Apostasy is in the Mormon Church because their teachings officially say BLACK or DARK non-white SKIN is a CURSE from your Mormon god.

“SACRED TRADITION” is part of the “DEPOSIT OF FAITH” which in CONTAINED
in Catholic “DOGMA”.

All Catholics are REQUIRED to believe Catholic DOGMA.

Denying Catholic DOGMA is HERESY and incurs an automatic latae sententiae excommunication

ANY historical actions or practices made by SINNERS is NOT Catholic DOGMA.

You know NOTHING about what Catholics are REQUIRED to believe in order to be CATHOLICS.

You just DIVERTED the subject away and DISTORTED the facts AGAIN.

Why don’t you ANSWER the CHALLENGE and show me the Catholic DOGMA
that shows any RACISM.

Your Mormon teachings CLEARLY show RACISM.

Did you “goof” again?

 

[chris2009]

chris2009,

Guess again, your facts need some review:

What does Jesus mean here?
If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it. (Matt. 16:24-5)

Paul’s talking about Christ crucified, on a cross:
23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; 24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. 25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.1 Corinthians 1:23

From newadvent.org/cathen/04529a.htm
The Cross to which Christ had been nailed, and on which He had died, became for Christians, quite naturally and logically, the object of a special respect and worship. St. Paul says, in 1 Corinthians 1:17: “For Christ sent me not to baptize; but to preach the gospel: not in wisdom of speech, lest the cross of Christ should be made void”; in Galatians 2:19: “With Christ I am nailed to the cross”; in Ephesians 2:16: Christ . . . . “might reconcile both to God in one body by the cross”; in Philippians 3:18: “For many walk . . . enemies of the cross of Christ”; in Colossians 2:14: "Blotting out the handwriting of the decree that was against us, which was contrary to us. And he hath taken the same out of the way, fastening it to the cross"; and in Galatians 6:14: “But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ; by whom the world is crucified to me, and I to the world”.

–kc

Are you suggesting Jesus, Peter and Paul wore crosses around their necks as symbols?

Of course the cross has special meaning regarding the atonement of Jesus Christ. But none of the scripture references above refer to the cross being used as a Christian symbol. That practice didn’t begin until the second century, more than 100 years after the apostles had been killed as well as most Christians and leaders. By then, all sorts of strange new doctrines & practices had evolved.

 

[chris2009]

chris2009,

Guess again, your facts need some review:

What does Jesus mean here?
If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it. (Matt. 16:24-5)

Paul’s talking about Christ crucified, on a cross:
23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; 24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. 25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.1 Corinthians 1:23

From newadvent.org/cathen/04529a.htm
The Cross to which Christ had been nailed, and on which He had died, became for Christians, quite naturally and logically, the object of a special respect and worship. St. Paul says, in 1 Corinthians 1:17: “For Christ sent me not to baptize; but to preach the gospel: not in wisdom of speech, lest the cross of Christ should be made void”; in Galatians 2:19: “With Christ I am nailed to the cross”; in Ephesians 2:16: Christ . . . . “might reconcile both to God in one body by the cross”; in Philippians 3:18: “For many walk . . . enemies of the cross of Christ”; in Colossians 2:14: "Blotting out the handwriting of the decree that was against us, which was contrary to us. And he hath taken the same out of the way, fastening it to the cross"; and in Galatians 6:14: “But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ; by whom the world is crucified to me, and I to the world”.

–kc

When do you believe the first Christians started wearing the cross as a symbol? Jesus, Peter, Paul? John the Baptist? I’m sure all the Jews wore crosses in their day.

 

[Answersplease]

it scratches your itching ears and validates your bigotry and intolerance.

So I’m an intolerant bigot (with itchy ears to boot!)because I speak the Truth about Mormonism. Ppl who disagree w ur doctrines are anti-mormon…sigh…I know the tired drill. Shoot the messenger.

So every site that is not approved by the Mormon Marketing Monster Machine is “anti mormon”. Convenient.
I question everything all the time and left Catholocism for years-returning after studying independantly and it holds up!

From Catholic Answers “Mormon Stumpers”:
catholic.com/library/Mormon_Stumpers.asp

"…all opposition comes ultimately from Satan. So, if you do offer a question or a criticism, be prepared for this reaction.

Many Mormons, including their hierarchy, look upon any criticism—regardless of how honest and sincere—as perverseness inspired by the Evil One."

Actually, I am always pleasant. Until, that is someone is unpleasant to me first, and even then I address the topic and the words, not the person. You treat me with courtesy, I will treat you with courtesy, every single time—and I am never discourteous first.

I guess you and Joseph Smith are “never discourteous first”.

From Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Smith

When a leading apostle, David W. Patten, raised insulting questions, Smith slapped him in the face and kicked him into the yard.[55] After a warrant was issued for Smith’s arrest on the charge of bank fraud, Smith and Rigdon fled Kirtland for Missouri on the night of January 12, 1838.[56]

 

[Answersplease]

It is also true that Brigham Young and the early Mormons were bigots, even as all the people around them (slave owners mostly) were…and that bigotry may well have tainted the Mormons for a hundred and fifty years. However, when another prophet asked for guidance from God, received it and proclaimed it one sunny summer morning, we all listened, found joy in the listening, and everything changed in an instant.

If it changed once, it can change again.

Or are you going to say no new Mormon president could ever re-affirm the “mark of Cain”?

Would you care to elaborate on this, Rebecca? (she says, sweetly…) I don’t suppose YOU have any experience with this issue? Are you African -American? Are you married to one? Are your children African American?

Well, dear, I am not African -American. I did, however, MARRY one and therefore my children are. I am not only aware of racial prejudice against people of color, I am also aware of what people think of white women who marry men of color. It can be very ugly, though it is getting much better.

The one place I never, ever received any grief about it is in the church.

 

[Answersplease]

I see.

You can’t get anywhere on the topic under consideration, so you change tack and attack on another one.

But y’know what? I have addressed the topic of abortion with you, gone over it completely, and I’m not going there again.

Just…go back and see what we have said about it earlier.

From Catholic Answers “Mormon Stumpers”:
catholic.com/library/Mormon_Stumpers.asp

“We have no revelation on abortion”

Didn’t you assume Mormons were pro-life? That’s certainly the image their church attempts to broadcast, and most Mormons, in fact, mistakenly believe their church opposes abortion and regards it as an objective evil. But not so.

Indeed, the Mormon church accepts abortion for a number of reasons. The Church Handbook of Instructions, approved in September, 1998, states that abortion may be performed in the following circumstances: pregnancy resulting from rape or incest; a competent physician says the life or health of the mother is in serious jeopardy; or a competent physician says that the “fetus” has severe defects that will not allow the “baby” to survive beyond birth. In any case, the persons responsible must first consult with their church leader and receive God’s approval in prayer (156).

This same Handbook, the official policies of the Mormon church to be followed by all local church leaders throughout the world, also claims: “It is a fact that a child has life before birth. However, there is no direct revelation on when the spirit enters the body” (156). Previous teachings by former Mormon prophets referred to the unborn child as “a child,” “a baby,” a “human being,” and decried abortion as “killing,” “a grievous sin,” “a damnable practice.” Spencer W. Kimball, the prophet who died in 1985, taught, “We have repeatedly affirmed the position of the church in unalterably opposing all abortions” (Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, 189).

It appears that this “unalterable” position, constantly “affirmed,” is just another in a series of doctrinal and moral teachings that Mormons have reworded, reworked, rescinded, or reneged—though never officially renounced. Such is the quality of the Mormon belief in “continuing revelation.” Don’t expect dogmatic or ethical consistency. Rather, look for expediency and conformity with “the times.”

A further statement in the Handbook says: “The church has not favored or opposed legislative proposals or public demonstrations concerning abortion (156).” While the Mormon prophet claims to speak the mind and will of God, he can neither figure out when the unborn child becomes human or if it is God’s desire that we protect the unborn unconditionally.

Your Mormon friend will offer the excuse that his church leaves many decisions to the free agency (free will) of its people, and that abortion is one such concern. You might point out the irony in the fact that the Mormon church has no hesitation or uncertainty in making the following declarations:

1. “The church opposes gambling in any form” (including lotteries). Members are also urged to oppose legislation and government sponsorship of any form of gambling (Handbook, 150).

1. The church also opposes [correctly, of course] pornography in any form (158).

1. Church members are to reject all efforts to legally authorize or support same-sex unions (158).

There is no need for a member to pray for divine guidance or seek church approval for such activities, for there will be no divine or ecclesiastical finessing of morality to permit even an occasional bingo game. A prayerful game of poker, unrepented, will bar the member from the temple and ultimate salvation; a prayerful, by-the-book abortion, unrepented, won’t.

Something’s wrong here

 

[Stephen168]

Why do you guys not have crosses in your church and temples?
chris2009;5471157:

I suppose you could also ask why Jesus Christ, Peter, Paul or the apostles didn’t use the cross as a symbol of religion.

How many Temples did Jesus, Peter, Paul, or the Apostles build? Of all those Temples how many had a statue of Moroni on the top?

 

[RebeccaJ]

Are you suggesting Christ and the apostles wore crosses around their necks? Did their churches have crosses in them? I don’t think you mean this. The cross as a Christian symbol came into use in the second century and the crucifix did not appear until the fifth century. The apostles were killed by about 100 AD and most leaders and Christians were killed by 200 AD by the Romans. By 300 AD changes in doctrine were well under way with the Great Apostasy – Constantine and the Council of Nicene changed the very doctrine of God.

The Jewish Encyclopedia states:

“The cross as a Christian symbol or “seal” came into use at least as early as the second century (see “Apost. Const.” iii. 17; Epistle of Barnabas, xi.-xii.; Justin, “Apologia,” i. 55-60; “Dial. cum Tryph.” 85-97); and the marking of a cross upon the forehead and the chest was regarded as a talisman against the powers of demons (Tertullian, “De Corona,” iii.; Cyprian, “Testimonies,” xi. 21-22; Lactantius, “Divinæ Institutiones,” iv. 27, and elsewhere). Accordingly the Christian Fathers had to defend themselves, as early as the second century, against the charge of being worshipers of the cross, as may be learned from Tertullian, “Apologia,” xii., xvii., and Minucius Felix, “Octavius,” xxix. Christians used to swear by the power of the cross.”

No you obtuse child. I’m showing you where the symbol of the cross is truly represented as religion, as an important belief, by Jesus, Paul, Matthew, Mark and Luke. That CHRISTIANS choose to wear this symbol outwardly should not be construed as having anything to do with your ignorance.

But what should I expect from someone who holds beliefs that “the message of the resurrection” replaces the “message of the cross”.

 

[RebeccaJ]

How many Temples did Jesus, Peter, Paul, or the Apostles build? Of all those Temples how many had a statue of Moroni on the top?

Or how many wore CTR jewelry? And where ARE these symbols found in the Bible?