Mormons; why don't you have crosses in your churches?

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Where in the world did you get that from? The only priests mentioned in the NT are actually Jews, Levites… After that there was no specific priesthood and all were called to be saints.
(I know you are using the same terms, but you are also using a different dictionary.)
1Pe 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people;

Rev 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

That’s probably where he got that from. The “us” in Revelation 1:6 wasn’t referring to Levites, and Peter’s epistle was directed to “strangers” scattered throughout Asia. These were Christian priests–as Mormons and Catholics clearly recognize.

Alma
 
I think you might have things backwards. It was the Catholics who had control of the governments throughout the world. The Pilgrims were a small group. Only about 100 of them sailed on the Mayflower to the New World and half died on their trip.

The Puritans had more people and John Winthrop was I admit a strict prude. People like Ann Hutchinson, Roger Williams and Elizabeth Winthrop Fones disagreed with John and were eventually cast out of their society.

I’m not aware of any laws that prescribed death for being Catholic by either of these groups of people. I would be interested in learning though. Will you provide your sources?
With all due respect, your ignorance is astounding. Here’s a thought, try opening a history book.
 
1Pe 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people;

Rev 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

That’s probably where he got that from. The “us” in Revelation 1:6 wasn’t referring to Levites, and Peter’s epistle was directed to “strangers” scattered throughout Asia. These were Christian priests–as Mormons and Catholics clearly recognize.

Alma
But that goes for all Christians… Male and Female as for that…
Don’t even try and name you in the same sentence with a Catholic… Catholics have the priesthood of all believers and a special priesthood… You have the priesthood of all male Mormons… (not all Christians that is… all male Mormons)
 
The apostles were killed by about 100 AD and most leaders and Christians were killed by 200 AD by the Romans.
Do you have the date and military leader of when this great slaughter of thousands of Christians took place? I’m thinking it would have to have been a very historical and well recorded event.
By 300 AD changes in doctrine were well under way with the Great Apostasy – Constantine and the Council of Nicene changed the very doctrine of God.
The Council of Nicea dealt with a heresy that arose just a few years before. Christians have always known who God was. The very Doctrine of God was changed by Joseph Smith with his King Follett Discourse.
The question for the thread is “Mormons, why don’t you have crosses in your churches?” I guess we can change the subject a little if you want. I think you are missing my point. I’m not saying crosses are evil. I’m not saying symbols are evil. I’m telling you why Mormons don’t use the cross like other religions.
Yes, that is the problem: You weren’t saying……
The symbol of the cross and the crucifix started with the Catholic Church and then at around 1500 AD when other Protestant Churches broke away, they all essentially adopted all the Catholic doctrines and practices with a few changes to make them closer to what they felt was true.
So now that you are saying…. It seems like Mormons do not use the cross as a rejection of Christianity.
The Pilgrams in 1620 were Seperatists - they wanted nothing to do with the Catholic Church and wanted a whole new religion. They were persecuted for this - fled to Holland and then to America.
The Pilgrims were separatist who wanted nothing to do with the Church of England. They were persecuted, just like any group which opposed the Church of England., and fled to Holland. They didn’t like the influence of all those other religions on their children and went to America.
Then in 1630 the Puritans under John Winthrop wanted to “change” or make pure the doctrines of the Catholic Church.
The Puritans wanted to ‘purify’ the Church of England of anything they believed to be ‘Papist,’ starting in the1500’s. In 1630, Winthrop took a group of them to American,
As members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, we stand with the Protestants, Pilgrams and Puritans in our belief that their was a Great Apostasy from the truth
In 1844, Joseph Smith ‘purified’ the Latter Day Saint Movement of Christianity. After he died, Young took his sect to Utah because they could not get along with there neighbors. Some sects of the Latter Day Saint Movement stayed in Illinois, while other sects dispersed to other places.
Temples are an entirely different topic, but just briefly I’m not aware of any temple that Jesus, Peter or Paul built. As you remember, Jesus’ ministry lasted only three years. We are aware of Solomon’s Temple that was built, destroyed, built and destroyed again. Moses had a portable tent that acted as the temple. Often the tops of mountains were used as temples. Jesus, Peter, James & John on the Mount of Transfiguration and Moses on Mount Sinai are two examples.
Temples are a Jewish place of worship. They are not used by Christians.
Moroni is not on any ancient temple obviously - Moroni didn’t live until around 400 AD.
Moroni is not on anything before Mormonism because he is a mythical character invented by Mormons.
 
Out of all Catholics in the US 1% are priests.
The same goes for the population of the African American Catholics.
As long as the percentage is nearly the same all is good because the relation between parishioners and priests is the same…
Problem solved. You don’t like it? Ok…
Janet, your own church reports that in the United States between 3 and 5% of the Catholic population is African American, whereas the world wide population of black Catholics is 3%. According to every site I have visited, there are approximately 67 million Catholics in the USA. According to the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, there are over 3 million African American Catholics. That makes a little over 4% of the Catholic population African American.

That same site claims the total population of Catholics in America to be 67.1 million.

I don’t know where you get the idea that only one percent of American Catholics are black, Janet, but I’ve gone to a bunch of sites, and though the numbers range from 3 to 7% (I threw out the ‘outliers’ and went with the majority,conservative Catholic estimates) NONE of them claimed that only 1% of American Catholics were African American.

So, going with the USCCB, if the ratio of African Americans to everybody else is going to match in both the general population and the clergy, then there should be four times as many African American priests as there are.

4% of the general Catholic population in America is black.
1% of the priests in America is black.

That leaves a pretty big discrepancy.

So you might think the ‘problem is solved,’ but only because you are worse at arithmetic than I am…and that is very difficult to do.
 
Yes, they had freedom in Holland but came to America to force others into their brand of Christianity. Pilgrims to America, Mormons to Utah.
Problem is, Mormons didn’t persecute other religions in Utah. Nobody got put into stocks for being Catholic in Utah, or whipped for being Presbyterian in Utah, or raped, shot in the head or thrown out of the state in the middle of winter for being Baptist in Utah.

I don’t suppose you are interested in those relatively minor considerations, however.
 
With all due respect, your ignorance is astounding. Here’s a thought, try opening a history book.
Appeal to ridicule is a fallacy. If he is incorrect, then tell him exactly how…and provide the sources he asked you for.
 
Appeal to ridicule is a fallacy. If he is incorrect, then tell him exactly how…and provide the sources he asked you for.
It’s not a fallacy, he keeps asserting things that are incorrect. If he wants to be taken seriously he should look into things. Come on the Puritans were persecuted by the Catholics, the years of the “Dark Ages” ( not used by anyone familiar with history) this is basic stuff.
 
It’s not a fallacy, he keeps asserting things that are incorrect. If he wants to be taken seriously he should look into things. Come on the Puritans were persecuted by the Catholics, the years of the “Dark Ages” ( not used by anyone familiar with history) this is basic stuff.
What is ‘basic stuff’ is that replying to an assertion/claim by ridiculing the writer is a classic fallacy. There are two non fallacious responses: one, ask for sources/proof of the assertion, or two: disagree and provide proof of your own counter-claims.

To reply with, in effect, 'you are stupid, go read some history…" is not only rude, it’s an admission that you don’t have an answer; he’s probably right and you are just being pissy.

As in…you lose the debate.
 
Yes, they (separatists/pilgrims) had freedom in Holland but came to America to force others into their brand of Christianity. Pilgrims to America, Mormons to Utah.
dianaiad;5477101:
Problem is, Mormons didn’t persecute other religions in Utah. Nobody got put into stocks for being Catholic in Utah, or whipped for being Presbyterian in Utah, or raped, shot in the head or thrown out of the state in the middle of winter for being Baptist in Utah.
My point is they both were running away because they had no desire to get along with their neighbors. Both groups had religious freedom before they fled, IF they had wanted it.
 
It’s not a fallacy, he keeps asserting things that are incorrect. If he wants to be taken seriously he should look into things. Come on the Puritans were persecuted by the Catholics, the years of the “Dark Ages” ( not used by anyone familiar with history) this is basic stuff.
yes, so basic, I thought I was getting sitting in a 5th grade class room. Just using the phrase ‘dark ages’ was telling. But this is a group that believes the ‘Great -]pumpkin/-] Apostasy’ was a historical event.
 
My point is they both were running away because they had no desire to get along with their neighbors. Both groups had religious freedom before they fled, IF they had wanted it.
Stephen.

Bogg’s Extermination Order of 1844. Haun’s Mill. Carthage Jail.

Mormons took a section of Mississippi swampland that nobody wanted or could use and turned it into one of the largest cities in the USA, prosperous and busy. Do you really think that they wanted to leave their homes, land, and businesses…AGAIN???

Now as to the persecution of the Pilgrims, it is quite true that one cannot blame the Catholics for that, much. At the time the Pilgrims left, Elizabeth was in her final years, and she had come pretty close to the final disruption of Catholicism in the UK–though it was quite a struggle. However, the Puritans and pilgrims (not all Pilgrims were Puritans, and as Cromwell soon proved, not all Puritans were Pilgrims, either), were definitely on the receiving end of some nasty persecution. After all, both the Catholics and the C of E had very recent and violent experience at it—an education that the Puritans soon put to efficient use themselves both there and here.
 
yes, so basic, I thought I was getting sitting in a 5th grade class room. Just using the phrase ‘dark ages’ was telling. But this is a group that believes the ‘Great -]pumpkin/-] Apostasy’ was a historical event.
You might want to argue with Petrarch about that.

Or, in fact, pretty much any historian; the 'Dark Ages" spans the time between the high point of the Roman Empire and the 'High middle ages," and refers to the time during which there were few books, fewer scientific advances, True, political correctness would prefer to use ‘medeaval history,’ or “early middle ages,” but Gibbons referred to the 'Dark Ages"–

And the term is still used in the sense that the period of time referred to was a tad backward; following the fall of the Roman Empire, with its scientific advancements, learning, government, infrastructure, etc., the early middle ages were less than lovely. Few read. Fewer wrote. If it were not for the church (and the Muslims) we would have lost everything we had of the learning of the Romans and the Greeks—and we almost lost all that anyway.

Literature went back to more oral than written–this IS, after all, the time of Beowulf. People were conquering all over the place, in the name of religion. Vikings loved this time.

Mostly the ‘dark ages’ refers to the paucity of information we have about what went on during those, roughly, 600 years. If it wasn’t done in, to, or by the church…we don’t know a bunch about it.

And the church wasn’t all that concerned with literature, science or medicine at the time. This is the time of burning of witches.

Now.

What were you saying about ‘those unfamiliar with history?’
 
ParkerD,

Are you saying that you believe all of the verses you cited and quoted are talking about putting a symbol of Christ’s crucifixion on your outward apparel in some way, to be “seen of men”?
No!
I didn’t mention anything about wearing the cross. (But say Christ’s sacrifice, rather than Christ’s crucifixion.) I was addressing chris2009’s comment about the use of the cross as a symbol and when it became part of Christianity:
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chris2009:
I suppose you could also ask why Jesus Christ, Peter, Paul or the apostles didn’t use the cross as a symbol of religion. This symbol evolved to become part of Christianity during the dark ages.
It was always part of Christianity. The notion that it become part of Christianity during the dark ages is just not true. With," take up his cross and follow me (Matt. 16:24)." Jesus, himself made the cross into a symbol. When Paul says in Galatians 2:19: “With Christ I am nailed to the cross”; he was absolutely using the cross as a symbol. Additionally, in both cases, and in others, the idea of embracing the cross is apparent. The use of physical representations of cross came later, but, in general, there’s nothing inappropriate or un-Christian about it. (There are some who don’t seem to understand or appreciate it’s significance and wear in inappropriately, I’ll agree there.)
Do you really think you understand the connotations of all of those verses and the verses surrounding them that provide more context to the teaching that is being given?
Yes!, well maybe not completely ;), but I agree with my use of them.

thanks,
–kc
+±+
PS my content is my opinion.
 
Not after this, no.
I agree completely and wholeheartedly! This accords with scriptural prophecy to Abraham. “All the families of the earth” means precisely that:

Genesis 28:14 And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed.

Abraham 2:11…“and in thy seed after thee (that is to say, the literal seed, or the seed of the body) shall all the families of the earth be blessed, even with the blessings of the Gospel, which are the blessings of salvation, even of life eternal.”
 
Literature went back to more oral than written–this IS, after all, the time of Beowulf. People were conquering all over the place, in the name of religion. Vikings loved this time.

Mostly the ‘dark ages’ refers to the paucity of information we have about what went on during those, roughly, 600 years. If it wasn’t done in, to, or by the church…we don’t know a bunch about it.
Perhaps an apostasy took place when the Vikings were imperfectly converted, and carried their ethics into a syncretic religion that only resembled Christianity? Just food for thought.
 
Hi Zerinus,

Don’t misunderstand me, here. I could care less why Mormons don’t have crosses in their churches, no disrespect intended. I just can’t believe this thread is still going! I wanted someone to answer the OP’s original question and be done with this thread! Ay yay yay! Enough already!:eek:🤷
 
Perhaps an apostasy took place when the Vikings were imperfectly converted, and carried their ethics into a syncretic religion that only resembled Christianity? Just food for thought.
Seriously? Probably part of it, as were all the other adjustments that were made to convert those who were in the path of Christian Kings.

Don’t get me wrong here, Jerusha; I am as fond of all the pagan rituals of Christmas and Easter as anyone. I’m all FOR converting those pagan symbols to Christian use. I mean, really, is there anybody left who honestly believes that Christ really was born on December 25th? Really? Does that matter? It is THAT we celebrate that is important, not when, or even, in large part, how.

However, in spite of what I suspect is some sarcasm on your part, you actually have a point. Isn’t it precisely those ‘imperfectly converted Christians’ who were being instructed by the letters Peter and Paul wrote to the various congregations, that are now published in the NT?
 
Stephen.
Bogg’s Extermination Order of 1844. Haun’s Mill. Carthage Jail.
Mormons took a section of Mississippi swampland that nobody wanted or could use and turned it into one of the largest cities in the USA, prosperous and busy. Do you really think that they wanted to leave their homes, land, and businesses…AGAIN???
I’m sure there are lots of poor me, Mormon stories; but bottom line is there were Illinois Mormon Wars, Missouri Mormon Wars, and Utah Mormon Wars under Smith and Young. No Shaker Wars, Oneida Community Wars, or Amana Community Wars. No Mormon Wars under Rigdon, or Smith III. Many Mormons felt safe enough to not move to Utah. Religious freedom was not why some Mormons went to Utah.
Now as to the persecution of the Pilgrims, it is quite true that one cannot blame the Catholics for that, much. At the time the Pilgrims left, Elizabeth was in her final years, and she had come pretty close to the final disruption of Catholicism in the UK–though it was quite a struggle. However, the Puritans and pilgrims (not all Pilgrims were Puritans, and as Cromwell soon proved, not all Puritans were Pilgrims, either), were definitely on the receiving end of some nasty persecution. After all, both the Catholics and the C of E had very recent and violent experience at it—an education that the Puritans soon put to efficient use themselves both there and here.
Which has nothing to do with Separatists in Holland.
 
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