Mormons: Why Jesus?

[PaulDupre]

Nobody I know has ever had to do that. (Bring W2s to tithing settlement)

Annie

I had to bring my last pay stub of the year, the first two years after I joined (1975 & 1976). The bishop wanted me to make up the tithe for the whole year, when I had joined in September. I showed him that I had paid a full tithe since joining, but it would be impossible for me to make up the other 8.5 months. After some haggling, he finally relented and pro-rated the 10% for the 3 months and two weeks of my 1975 membership.

Perhaps bishops had more latitude back then.

Other recent converts had the same requirement. That bishop didn’t trust converts. In my first ward (in Massachusetts), converts were sort of 2nd-class Mormons. The 6th-generation Utah aristocracy wouldn’t give us the time of day. Things were better when I moved to California.

Paul

 

[Publisher]

That’s a fair position. I’d like to make a little suggestion though…

I think it’s important for people like you to write about your experiences. There’s a tendency (and I’m sure you’ll agree) for Mormons to see leaving as a matter of laziness, evil, “being offended” (as you pointed out earlier) or some other matter. I think you and Paul DuPre seem to be good examples of people who left on principle, rather than because of hurt feelings or a desire to spend the rest of your lives in a drunken stupor.

I’ve never been familiar with a counselor in a bishopric who has left, though I have been acquainted with a few who have wandered away. The common theme seemed to be studying and coming to the conclusion that it’s a lot of baloney, or in one case the person simply didn’t feel the spiritual witness we’re all promised. In these cases, while I might differ with some of the conclusions, I can accept the fact that leaving can be an act of great integrity.

Just my own opinion. I went over to the fair board (MADB) yesterday. Those nitwits bother me far more than you, by a long mile.

Not trying to derail the topic, but just to point out an interesting…at least to me…point you’ve made. In those threads dealing with Roman Catholics leaving the church, there is a tendancy to accuse those who leave Catholicism with the same things…so it’s a “universal” accusation to do so…we all find it difficult to think that our faith tradition might be flawed…so we accuse those who leave it with things similar.

 

[PaulDupre]

I’ve never been familiar with a counselor in a bishopric who has left, though I have been acquainted with a few who have wandered away. The common theme seemed to be studying and coming to the conclusion that it’s a lot of baloney, or in one case the person simply didn’t feel the spiritual witness we’re all promised.

I was also a bishop’s counselor (2nd) for four years. It is a very demanding position. But the bishop I was counselor to was a very fine man.

Paul

 

[agangbern]

Hi Agangbern,

One level (the one faithful Mormons inherit) is called the Celestial Kingdom. Mormon cosmology analogizes this as being similar to the glory of the sun.

The next best is called the Terrestrial Kingdom. This is compared with the glory of the moon. My understanding is that this is what believing Catholics (Muslims, Pagans, etc.) who live good lives and try to do the best they can will inherit.

The third best place is called the “Telestial” Kingdom. Where the early Mormons got that word I’m not sure. It’s compared to the glory of the stars in the sky.

Of all these different places, the Celestial Kingdom is the only one which is not a final destination. My understanding is that this is a sort of holding area, where the best of us will continue to be tested, and may progress to becoming like God is today (i.e., in a position to rule over a planet full of people).

Similar to the glory of the sun and the moon and the stars! Beautiful. Are they all heavens? Who goes to the holding area, to the celestial kingdom?

 

[LaMar]

Similar to the glory of the sun and the moon and the stars! Beautiful. Are they all heavens? Who goes to the holding area, to the celestial kingdom?

Well, what I describe as a holding area (the Celestial kingdom) is a place where people who did everything they could would be tested further. Some of them would, in theory, continue to progress to greater levels of glory.

 

[LaMar]

I was also a bishop’s counselor (2nd) for four years. It is a very demanding position. But the bishop I was counselor to was a very fine man.

Paul

I’ve been very lucky with all my bishops. I agree with you about the demanding part. I was on the other side of that as a kid. I never knew my own dad until I was in my late teens.

 

[LaMar]

Not trying to derail the topic, but just to point out an interesting…at least to me…point you’ve made. In those threads dealing with Roman Catholics leaving the church, there is a tendancy to accuse those who leave Catholicism with the same things…so it’s a “universal” accusation to do so…we all find it difficult to think that our faith tradition might be flawed…so we accuse those who leave it with things similar.

That’s so interesting, and it’s not what I would have expected.

I’ve never known Quakers, Unitarians, Episcopalians, and other liberal versions of the protestant tradition to do this. I think they all see themselves as merely variations on one theme though. Perhaps they would if an adherent announced he was joining the Muslims or Jews.

 

[majick275]

the “holding area” would be the spirit world which ahas two parts. paradise (where worthy mormons go) and spirit prison. Mormons believe that the spirits in paradise will go as missionaries to preach to the spirits in prison. those who accept and have their ordinances performed for them here on earth in the temples then get to upgrade to paradise. once the resurrection occurs there will be no “holding area”.

 

[LaMar]

the “holding area” would be the spirit world which ahas two parts. paradise (where worthy mormons go) and spirit prison. Mormons believe that the spirits in paradise will go as missionaries to preach to the spirits in prison. those who accept and have their ordinances performed for them here on earth in the temples then get to upgrade to paradise. once the resurrection occurs there will be no “holding area”.

Ah, yeah. OK. LOL! Listen to the bishop. He’s right. Spirit prison and Paradise are the places you go before the judgment, unless you have your second anointing, or are translated, or like the 3 nephites, or…

See, it’s so complicated (and silly) that even folks who have spent a lifetime with it don’t really understand it.

What’s sorta funny is that this class/caste system which supposedly exists for all of us after we depart from this phase of our development is the absolute opposite of what Joseph Smith and Brigham Young promoted for our lives here. Early Mormons “had all things in common”. We had Orderville and ZCMI and communist ideas like these, which were supposedly going to usher in the ideal society.

 

[agangbern]

Well, what I describe as a holding area (the Celestial kingdom) is a place where people who did everything they could would be tested further. Some of them would, in theory, continue to progress to greater levels of glory.

Where would be the next level of “greater glory” after the Celestial Kingdom?

 

[LaMar]

Where would be the next level of “greater glory” after the Celestial Kingdom?

Nobody really knows. There’s a book called Eternal Progress (de Jong) that suggests various possibilities. One hint is that eventually, the best of us will get their own planets, and will become like God is today. God himself, it is supposed, might go on to achieve even greater things also.

 

[RC_Matt]

the “holding area” would be the spirit world which ahas two parts. paradise (where worthy mormons go) and spirit prison. Mormons believe that the spirits in paradise will go as missionaries to preach to the spirits in prison. those who accept and have their ordinances performed for them here on earth in the temples then get to upgrade to paradise. once the resurrection occurs there will be no “holding area”.

What about people like Adolf Hitler and Eve Braun? The Mormons have done all the temple work for that whole gang, so presumably they are eligible for paradise? I know this sounds unlikely, but here’s Hitler’s record: utlm.org/images/hitlertemplerecord1.gif

I can never get a straight answer about this.

 

[LaMar]

What about people like Adolf Hitler and Eve Braun? The Mormons have done all the temple work for that whole gang, so presumably they are eligible for paradise? I know this sounds unlikely, but here’s Hitler’s record: utlm.org/images/hitlertemplerecord1.gif

I can never get a straight answer about this.

The most important part of Hitler’s salvation, for Mormons, is encapsulated in the fact that he was a Roman Catholic (heh, I’m sure that’ll start people squealing).

educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=8945

This is relevant because Mormon theology only holds individuals responsible based upon the degree of understanding they possessed when they did wrong.

Hitler will not be able to achieve the Celestial Kingdom because he was not a faithful Mormon, but he will also probably not be consigned to outer darkness either, because he didn’t know the fullness of the gospel.

I personally believe the Hitler-Braun proxy work to be genuine, despite the tedious denials WhyMe and other apologists are predicted to issue.

 

[Believe_85]

I thought Mormons cared about works as well as faith? Systematically killing 6million people doesn’t warrant outer darkness but a geniunely good person who is also Catholic who has knowingly rejected Joseph Smith and all of the teachings of the LDS church does get cast off??

 

[LaMar]

I thought Mormons cared about works as well as faith? Systematically killing 6million people doesn’t warrant outer darkness but a geniunely good person who is also Catholic who has knowingly rejected Joseph Smith and all of the teachings of the LDS church does get cast off??

Neither get cast off, per se.

Outer darkness is a place that’s very hard to get into, in Mormon theology. Catholics who reject the LDS church and live good lives will likely end up in the second best (terrestrial) kingdom. Hitler will (I’m guessing) end up in the one below that.

You really shouldn’t worry about any of this. It’s a lot of nonsense made up in the 19th century, based upon nonsense early Christians made up two thousand years earlier. A very great number of Mormons don’t take it seriously. The most important thing to me is how we behave toward one another here, on this earth, which is the only world we have ever known and the only one that’s relevant.

 

[majick275]

one could make a case for hitler going to the telestial and “good catholics” who rejected mormonism going to the terrestial. however, there is no official mormon doctrine on hitler specifically. it is within the realm of possibility within mormon teaching that his mormon baptism washed away his sins and then his other temple work entitled him to full celestial exaltation. some mormon writings also leave open the possibility of something like a purgatory process in which those who have fully repented go through an undefined “penalty” to remove any uncleanness so that they can then enter into the presence of God.

 

[RC_Matt]

I thought Mormons cared about works as well as faith? Systematically killing 6million people doesn’t warrant outer darkness but a geniunely good person who is also Catholic who has knowingly rejected Joseph Smith and all of the teachings of the LDS church does get cast off??

Actually, Hitler murdered 11 million people; six million were Jewish and the other five million were Poles, Slavs, Gypsys, intellectuals, dissidents, JWs, etc. Those are the “forgotten five million.”

So, Hitler and all his buds can avoid outer darkness; but, according to Zerinus, those of us who have spent a lot of time around Mormons (which includes moi ), and have refused the attempts to convert us, do go straight to hell. Sure makes sense to me….

In any case, I’m glad to hear that Hitler won’t make it to celestial glory. I’ll bet life on his planet would totally suck!

 

[PaulDupre]

In any case, I’m glad to hear that Hitler won’t make it to celestial glory. I’ll bet life on his planet would totally suck!

 

[why_me]

Actually, Hitler murdered 11 million people; six million were Jewish and the other five million were Poles, Slavs, Gypsys, intellectuals, dissidents, JWs, etc. Those are the “forgotten five million.”

So, Hitler and all his buds can avoid outer darkness; but, according to Zerinus, those of us who have spent a lot of time around Mormons (which includes moi ), and have refused the attempts to convert us, do go straight to hell. Sure makes sense to me….

In any case, I’m glad to hear that Hitler won’t make it to celestial glory. I’ll bet life on his planet would totally suck!

Only God can judge why a human being acts the way he or she does. And only god can decide whether or not they should be condemned. Can a psychotic person be held responsible for their actions? I don’t know because I am not god.

You are not going to hell. You may be just a little misguided but that does not warrent hell. You will be with me in the terrestial kingdom.

 

[Geocacher]

Fascinating thread here.

I can say that I am not quite headed toward the Celestial Kingdom, because I have not paid a tithing in several years, left the LDS church in 2005, and not attending any church right now, except on occation, when the spirit pulls me to attend my Sister’s Ward, when it is very strong. I have never held a Temple Recommend of my own in my 47 years of life. When my Dad remarried in the temple after the death of my mom, I could not go inside, also could not attend the temple when my Sister got married. The Eternal Marrage concept, and it being required for acceiving the uppermost Glory of Heaven, have left doubts in my mind from the beginning.

I have had health problems for many years that has left me tired and sluggish much of the time, including having had head injuries in the past. I am stuck between the Mormon and Catholic church, due to the health problems, that leave me depleted.

I joined the Mormon church at 11 with my family in 1971, and to this very day right here, never had a testamony of which of any church is the True church.

Sorry for this messy post of mine.

All very interesting posts here, including PaulDupre, and majick275.