Mormons: Your take on the concept of "Orginal Sin"

[zerinus]

I think you have read something in to the statement that was not there.

I don’t think she has read anything into anything. She has been a Mormon, and she knows perfectly well what Mormons teach about Christ to their children.

 

[flyonthewall]

I don’t think she has read anything into anything. She has been a Mormon, and she knows perfectly well what Mormons teach about Christ to their children.

I was trying to be charitable in my response. To make such a statement, with all its implications, while knowing what we teach our children would be …and I did not want to go there.

 

[SteveVH]

I agree that we suffer spiritual death as result of the fall, but Catholic theology teaches that we actually inherit the sin of Adam.

And if we suffer spiritual death, how is “life” restored to our souls in the Mormon world?

The Catechism you quoted makes that clear enough. The sin is the “death of the soul,” says the Catechism.

Yes, I would agree that it is clear enough. We inherit the “death of the soul” which comes to us through the sin of Adam. Where else would it have come from?

We are baptised in order to remit the sin, not the death!

And I will ask you again, if the death of the soul remains, how do you become spiritually alive again? If the sin is remitted then so is the effect; death of the soul.

And where there is sin, there is guilt. We are made guilty because of the sin of Adam.

We have been over this numerous times by now zerinus. I see no reason to keep repeating myself. See my previous posts.

This is another example of Catholic ambiguity. What do you mean by “born intact”? What is “intact”? If you mean that we have become spiritually dead as a result of the Fall, I agree. If you mean something else, you would have to explain.

Being born “intact” is my own description which arises from the fact that if we are born spiritually dead, due to the transmission of the “death of the soul”, then we are not born intact. We are missing something and that something is spiritual life. We are not born fully human. It is only through receiving spiritual life that we become fully human.

In Mormonism we become spiritually “born again” when we receive the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands, not just by baptism.

In Catholicism, we receive the gift of the Holy Spirit at Baptism, and the Spirit is strengthened in us and we receive the gifts of the Holy Spirit (knowledge, wisdom, understanding, piety, counsel, fortitude, fear of the Lord), by the laying on of hands by the Bishop, a successor to the Apostles, at Confirmation.

That is Mormon belief! Catholic belief goes one step further, and teaches that baptism remits the Original Sin, as well as “personal” sins.

Yes, original sin, defined by the Catholic Church as the death of the soul, is remitted as well as all other sins of commission or ommission as of the moment of receiving the Sacrament.

In none of the above, however, have we discussed the fate of Children. In Mormonism children are unconditionally redeemed by the Atonement of Jesus Christ, and they have no need of anything to be saved.

In my 56 years as a Catholic, I have never, not once, heard that children below the age of reason are damned if not baptized. We believe in a merciful God who loves his children beyond our ability to even grasp. The Church does not condemn anyone; that is God’s job, not ours. This is why we recognize other forms of Baptism, such as Baptism of desire or Baptism by blood. God lives in eternity, not in time and space. Only He knows what this child would have chosen had it lived. The child is dependent upon its parents to do what Christ commanded and to be baptized in order to become spiritually alive. No one believes that an innocent child would be damned because of the negligence of its parents. We have complete confidence in the love, mercy and justice of God.

 

[KathleenGee]

Vouch the same in my upbringing…

Same goes for people who are good, kind, honest, helpful…The Good Samaritan…we trust in God’s mercy for these.

People are looking for things to condemn without the context or church teachings and practice.

 

[SteveVH]

I am glad you believe god is a loving and merciful God; but there must be some precision to theological assertions, otherwise we will be all over the place and not know what we believe. The Catechism categorically states that baptism remits Original Sin. Either that is a true statement or it isn’t. You can’t have it half and half.

Zerinus,

I am fairly certain that I have mentioned this before but it is really important that it be understood when speaking of “theological” theory as opposed to doctrinal practice.

There is a theological truth, at least in Catholic thought, that suicide is a mortal (deadly) sin. Our lives are not our own, but rather belong to God. He is the author of life and it is His to either give or take away. If a person, in possession of all his wits, selfishly decides that he no longer wants to live, and takes his own life, he would be guilty of mortal sin.

But what about the person who may be suffering from a mental disorder, or is placed under unbearable stress or pain to the point that he can no longer think clearly or make a moral choice? The theory, while remaining true, would not apply, or would apply to varying degrees. This is why we trust and rely on God’s mercy and justice.

We have a theological truth which does not change. We also have a reality which may very well mitigate the person’s responsibility for his actions.

It is no different when speaking of innocent children. While it is true that we are born with the affliction of the death of the soul, therefore, speaking in terms of theological theory, the child would be born spiritually dead and if spiritually dead could not attain eternal life. We also know that the child could not, obviously, attain this own his own and is born innocent. We do not have, thank God, only theological theory to go on. The goodness and mercy of God has been revealed to us and we can have complete confidence that He will, in fact, save this child from the human condition as he or she is completely innocent insofar as the ability to commit sin is involved.

 

[DCNBILL]

Not true. Baptism remits the Original Sin. There is no such thing as remitting the “effects” of any sin. Remission of sin is the same as forgiveness of sin. Another word for it is absolution. You can only be forgiven, or absolved, of a sin, not the “effects” of a sin. Perhaps you have difficulty reading English; but the Catechism is clear enough:

:tsktsk: zerinus, charity please.

 

[zerinus]

And if we suffer spiritual death, how is “life” restored to our souls in the Mormon world?

By baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost.

You are baptised for the remission of the sin,

In Mormonism you become spiritually alive through baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost—not through the “remission” of any “inherited Original Sin”. It is the Holy Spirit that infuses spiritual life in the person, making him spiritually alive again. In Mormonism you don’t “inherit” any “Original Sin” that it should need to be “remitted”. You do inherit spiritual death, however, which is undone by the baptism of “water and of the Spirit”. You are baptized for the remission of personal sins, and then you are ready to be “quickened in the spirit” by the baptism of fire and Holy Ghost.

In Catholicism, we receive the gift of the Holy Spirit at Baptism, and the Spirit is strengthened in us and we receive the gifts of the Holy Spirit (knowledge, wisdom, understanding, piety, counsel, fortitude, fear of the Lord), by the laying on of hands by the Bishop, a successor to the Apostles, at Confirmation.

That seems to contain a contradiction. Do you receive the Holy Spirit at baptism or by the laying on of hands of the bishop? You seem to be saying both.

Yes, original sin, defined by the Catholic Church as the death of the soul, is remitted as well as all other sins of commission or ommission as of the moment of receiving the Sacrament.

Well, sin is the only thing that can be “remitted” (i.e. forgiven, absolved). “Death” cannot be “remitted”. That is just not a lexically valid statement to make. So if you are “baptized” for the “remission” of your “Original Sin,” that makes you guilty of that sin, isn’t that so?

In my 56 years as a Catholic, I have never, not once, heard that children below the age of reason are damned if not baptized. . . .

I am sure you haven’t, because that is not the current teaching any more. But it used to be, and even today the Catholic Church expresses uncertainty about the fate of unbaptized children. There is no categorical assertion that they are unconditionally saved. And it is still a doctrine of the church that they need to be baptized for the remission of their “Original Sin”. I gave a link to an article on the Vatican website early on in this thread which maintains “limbo” as a possibility, though is uncertain about it. There is no categorical teaching in Catholicism which declares unreservedly that unbaptized children are saved. The best that it can do is to say that we don’t know, but trust their fate to a merciful God. It still leaves open the possibility that they may not be fully saved.

 

[zerinus]

:tsktsk: zerinus, charity please.

Thank you for the reminder. I will try to do better next time.

 

[KathleenGee]

Christ is the one who through baptism …and our growing in awareness of our faith…that Christ is sufficient, full of grace to overcome any sin past, present or future.

And – His mercy far exceeds our sinfulness. Christ is as an Ocean of Mercy.

Subsequently, all our perfectionism or good works or ‘being nice’ or looking beautiful, clean and wholesome looking is not going to save us. We are saved by the grace of Christ’s merits alone — provided we do as like the woman who was exhorted at the well by Christ, Who knew she had 5 husbands, to sin no more.

And deadly sin is that which is mortal, deadly to self and others.

 

[RebeccaJ]

To those confused by this statement above or by the statement Zerinus made supporting that infants and toddlers don’t need baptism to be “saved”:

I have children, and we have taught them at home (as do all active Mormon parents) that they do need Jesus in their life, and that He loves them and is all of our Redeemer and Savior.

Last Sunday in our Sunday service, the children presented a program where they sang and spoke as a group and individually, and testified of the love Jesus has for all people including for children. It was a wonderful meeting. The light of the gospel was in their eyes and emanated from their hearts–including those under age eight who had not yet been baptized.

The love Jesus has for little children can be seen in their eyes. They love Him also, and are learning about His birth, His mission on earth, His example, and His atonement and resurrection each year of their life at home and when they attend Primary classes and Sunday service .

Nothing what you say here says Mormons teach their children they need Jesus.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I don’t think she has read anything into anything. She has been a Mormon, and she knows perfectly well what Mormons teach about Christ to their children.

Y’all need to make up your mind. Am I an undereducated ex Mormon who doesn’t know anything and just makes stuff up? Or, do I know perfectly well what Mormons teach?

Let me know what y’all decide.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I can see the love of Christ in the Mormons…

I think Rebecca is speaking theologically.

Mostly. I haven’t seen a statement that Mormons teach their children they need Jesus, in any way. Not until the magic 8 year mark.

 

[zerinus]

DCNBILL:
Hi, DCNBILL

I just looked at your profile, and found that you are a deacon in the Catholic Church, and have MA in Theology from St Vincent de Paul Regional Seminary. Wow! With all that great education under your belt, I am sure you can make a better contribution to this debate than just watch from the sidelines!

 

[ParkerD]

Nothing what you say here says Mormons teach their children they need Jesus.

RJ,

I assure you that LDS children are taught and also know innately that they need Jesus and that He loves them, as they are. They have no fears about those concepts, if that’s what you mean. They have faith in Him, and feel His love in their lives.

Neither are they taught to be baptized out of a sense of “fear” of “what if they don’t choose that step in their lives.” They choose that step out of love for Him and out of sincerity in following Him.

Nor do their parents “fear” about God working in the lives of their children, day by day with guidance and help. It is an inter-covenant relationship–God guides the parents in teaching their children, and guides the children individually in making choices in their lives, not perfectly, but with knowledge that repentance and change, learning and growth are parts of life and are blessings of this life. The parents and the children know that the Savior, Jesus Christ is central to these blessings in their lives.

 

[catholic-rcia]

You’re talking about kids here Parker.
Let’s talk about a man who was having a hard time in California who was invited to Utah to stay with his uncle who is Mormon. He left his girl friend behind and is sending her money. He has been working with me for the last two weeks.
Here is what he told me yesterday

Littler background
One week after he arrived the missionaries also arrived at his uncle’s home. They have been on him ever since.
Here is what he says they are telling him along with his uncle. Baptism, baptism, and baptism in order to have a better life.

His uncle is telling him things like if you want a home like mine and lots of work…… Baptism. Believe it or not they are also telling him since he was married before and now has a girlfriend he needs to drop her as she is Catholic and would not convert. That after baptism he will find a Mormon girl here.

Here is what he has been telling them all:
I have already been baptized and I am Catholic. They are not stopping. Parker this is real. Fortunately he has run into me and I am taking him to Spanish Mass Sunday. He also told me that they have been telling him to stop drinking coffee and not to have any pictures of our lady of Guadalupe and to remove the crucifix around his neck. Do you how evil this all is? Do you know? There is one faith and there is one baptism as scripture attest. What’s happening is an attempt to steal him away from the true Jesus. Pride is running this whole show, pressure to succeed by having him baptized. No heart in this at all, no sensitivity towards his real needs. This is not a good thing. You know what else he told them. Funny but another just recently told Mormon missionaries the same.
“When do we talk about Jesus?”

I have to admit I am a bit worked up here. I feel like turning over a few good tables. This is from the inside scoop, what does take place here. His uncle telling him he will have lots of work. The only work his uncle has been able to get is from me a devout Catholic. What will I do about his Mormon uncle who helps me? ……Love him!

 

[Deserwest]

I don’t think she has read anything into anything. She has been a Mormon, and she knows perfectly well what Mormons teach about Christ to their children.

Rebecca is either lying thru her false teeth or was never a mormon or was totally asleep in Church.

To prove this point, I will quote from page 100 of the BOOK OF MORMON to refute her lies…

2 Nephi 25:26

" And we talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies THAY OUR CHILDREN MAY KNOW TO WHAY SOURCE THEY MAY LOOK FOR A REMISSION OF THEIR SINS"

2 Nephi 25:27

" Wherefore, we speak concerning the law that our children may know the deadness of the law, may look forward unto that life which is in Christ, and know for what end that law was given. And after the law is fulfilled in Christ, THAT THEY NOT HARDEN THEIR HEARTS against him when the law ought to be done away.

2 Nephi 25:28

" And now behold my people, ye are a stiffnecked people, wherefor I have spoken plainly unto you, that ye cannot misunderstand. And the words which I have spoken shall stand as a testimony against you for they are sufficent to teach any man the right way; FOR THE RIGHT WAY IS TO BELIVE IN CHRIST and deny him not; for by denying him ye also deny the prophets and the law"

2 Nephi 25:29

And now I behold, I say unto you THAT THE RIGHT WAY IS TO BELIVE IN CHRIST, and deny him not; and CHRIST IS THE HOLY ONE OF ISREAL, wherefore you must bow down before him, and worship him with all your might mind and strength, and your whole soul, and if ye do this ye shall in nowise be cast out.

Rebecaa, you clearly have cast dispersion on the Mormon faith and clearly this was based upon either your ignorance of the truth of what we teach our children or based on the fact that you are a willfull liar. Either way, you do stand corrected and discredited on this board.

The youth of the Mormon church are taught extensivly from the Book of Mormon as well as the Bible. While your catholic friends may be unschooled as to what Mormomism is actually all about, you have done nothing to benefit them with your lies and distortions.

I call your attention to the verses above that you will give heed to what these verses say. Regardless of what faith you belong to, you discredit it and yourself when you seek to mislead others thru your lies. It is no wonder given your complete ignorance of what Mormons teach that you would leave that Church. But you have left in ignorance and now in your gaul of bitterness you seek to spread the same ignorant venom to others.

I truly hope you are happy in your catholic faith. Perhaps than can do a better job of teaching you the principles of honesty and truth than we did. But as to your posting on this board, until you make right your blantant lies, you stand rebuked and fully discredited. You are nothing more than another bitter anti mormon at this point. Repent.

 

[SteveVH]

am sure you haven’t, because that is not the current teaching any more. But it used to be, and even today the Catholic Church expresses uncertainty about the fate of unbaptized children. There is no categorical assertion that they are unconditionally saved. And it is still a doctrine of the church that they need to be baptized for the remission of their “Original Sin”. I gave a link to an article on the Vatican website early on in this thread which maintains “limbo” as a possibility, though is uncertain about it. There is no categorical teaching in Catholicism which declares unreservedly that unbaptized children are saved. The best that it can do is to say that we don’t know, but trust their fate to a merciful God. It still leaves open the possibility that they may not be fully saved.

I think you will probably agree that it is time to stop this merry-go-round. If I explain the same thing a hundred more times will it make a difference? I seriously doubt it. In any case the original question has been turned on its head. This thread was asking for the Mormon take on original sin and all we have been discussing is the Catholic view, for the most part. No one’s fault, its just the natural course of the conversation.

Would you mind just summarizing the Mormon view on eactly how the sin of Adam and Eve effected creation, especially mankind? I 'm not looking for a doctoral dissertation here. Just in simple terms, if possible, what was the effect of original sin and how is it to be overcome? Do you believe, as some LDS posters here do, that Adam’s choice to collaberate in disobedience against God was a “good choice”?

Thanks.

 

[SteveVH]

Rebecca is either lying thru her false teeth or was never a mormon or was totally asleep in Church.

To prove this point, I will quote from page 100 of the BOOK OF MORMON to refute her lies…

Deserwest, my only comment would be that the Book of Mormon also seems very Trinitarian, but your church certainly does not teach that doctrine. It does not seem reasonable to use a book, in which such a basic Christian doctrine as the Trinity is allowed to be ignored, as a defense on any other matter of doctrine. The question is, do you still believe it or has it gone the way of belief in the Trinity?

I certainly believe that Mormons speak to their children about Jesus Christ. I don’t know what they are taught; it would certainly be different then what any other Christian would teach. Maybe that 's the true issue; it isn’t that that they are not taught something about Jesus, but, rather, what are they taught. Are they taught that salvation comes from our God, or from themselves through progression?

 

[flyonthewall]

I think you will probably agree that it is time to stop this merry-go-round. If I explain the same thing a hundred more times will it make a difference? I seriously doubt it. In any case the original question has been turned on its head. This thread was asking for the Mormon take on original sin and all we have been discussing is the Catholic view, for the most part. No one’s fault, its just the natural course of the conversation.

Would you mind just summarizing the Mormon view on eactly how the sin of Adam and Eve effected creation, especially mankind? I 'm not looking for a doctoral dissertation here. Just in simple terms, if possible, what was the effect of original sin and how is it to be overcome? Do you believe, as some LDS posters here do, that Adam’s choice to collaberate in disobedience against God was a “good choice”?

Thanks.

Here is what it states on lds.org:

Because of the Fall of Adam and Eve, all people live in a fallen condition, separated from God and subject to physical death. However, we are not condemned by what many call the “original sin.” In other words, we are not accountable for Adam’s transgression in the Garden of Eden. The Prophet Joseph Smith said, “We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression”

Through the Atonement, the Savior paid the price for the transgression in the Garden of Eden (see Moses 6:53). He has given us the assurance of resurrection and the promise that, based on our faithfulness, we can return to dwell in the presence of our Heavenly Father forever.

For a scriptural reference, see 1 Corinthians 15: 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
The effects of Adam’s transgression are washed away with the atonement for ALL people, even those that are not baptized or believe. Therefore, then only thing that would deny us from being in the presence of the Father is our own behavior here.

 

[zerinus]

Would you mind just summarizing the Mormon view on eactly how the sin of Adam and Eve effected creation, especially mankind? I 'm not looking for a doctoral dissertation here. Just in simple terms, if possible, what was the effect of original sin and how is it to be overcome?

Adam’s sin brought death into the world, made all of us subject to disease, sickness, and vicissitudes of life; it brought on us spiritual death, so that we are cut off from the presence of God (which is what spiritual death means in our theology); and made mankind subject to sin and the temptations of the devil. I gave a number of quotes from LDS Scripture in post #16 of which the first one is probably the most illustrative:

Mosiah 3:

19 For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father.

And here is another which I had forgotten to mention:

Ether 3:

2 . . . for we know that thou art holy and dwellest in the heavens, and that we are unworthy before thee; because of the fall our natures have become evil continually; nevertheless, O Lord, thou hast given us a commandment that we must call upon thee, that from thee we may receive according to our desires.

That is what the Fall caused to happen to all of us. And it is undone by the Atonement of Jesus Christ as explained in that verse, and through the sacraments of baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost. Another interesting quote is Moses 6:47-68. It is a bit lengthy, so I gave a link rather than give a direct quote. It pretty much covers most aspects of the Mormon theology of the Fall. Mormon revelation also teaches that if Adam and Eve had not fallen, they could not have had children; but it does not explain why.

With regard to the fate of children (and those who are not accountable for their actions); and who needs baptism and who doesn’t (and why), consider these verses:

Moroni 8:

12 But little children are alive in Christ, even from the foundation of the world; . . .

22 For behold that all little children are alive in Christ, and also all they that are without the law. For the power of redemption cometh on all them that have no law; wherefore, he that is not condemned, or he that is under no condemnation, cannot repent; and unto such baptism availeth nothing.

In the NT baptism is made conditional on repentance. That is made very clear in the text of the NT. Therefore somebody who cannot repent because he hasn’t done anything to repent of, like infants; or who is not “under the law,” and therefore is not conscious of any wrongs that he needs to repent of, doesn’t need baptism.

I would rather explain theology by giving direct quotes from authoritative sources and let you judge them for yourself, rather than embark on lengthy theological treatise. Have a look at those, and if they don’t answer all questions feel free to ask, and I will do my best to answer any remaining questions.

Do you believe, as some LDS posters here do, that Adam’s choice to collaberate in disobedience against God was a “good choice”?

Mormon revelation teaches that partaking of the forbidden fruit was indeed a sin, because it went directly against God’s commandment to them not to partake of the fruit; but that it was a necessary and unavoidable part of the plan of salvation that God had predetermined from the beginning. To understand the Mormon theological position on that more clearly you need to understand why why God had commanded them not to partake of the fruit, and why the penalty of death was affixed to partaking of the fruit. Since I have had this discussion with Catholics several times before (and knew it wouldn’t be the last!), I have written a blog post to explain it, which you can read here. Have a look at that, and if you have further questions feel free to ask, and I will try to answer them for you as best I can. Here is another article I wrote regarding the Mormon theological position on the Fall, which you may find helpful. Have a look at those, and I will answer any remaining questions.