That is a well known tactic: when you have no more answers to give, create a diversion by attacking Mormonism!Zerinus, do not confuse resolve with belligerence. Your very idea of the nature of Jesus Christ as an exalted man impedes your understanding and prevents you from grasping the truth. The Mormon position that God placed Adam in an impossible situation, actually causing him to disobey God for the sake of Eve, rather than remaining obedient, again demonstrates a lack of understanding of the purity, holiness, and justice of God.
God’s creation was perfect, He saw all that He had made and said it was “very good”. Man lived in a state of innocence (not naivety) and justice. He walked with God and God gave man free will that man might choose to love Him. Instead, man chose to disobey Him. After this initial act of disobedience, all of mankind was subject to its consequences. The world changed dramatically and man, left to his own devices, was lost and would now suffer, not only physical death but spiritual death. But God remained faithful and His love for mankind caused him to give His only Son, who had been with Him from eternity, so that we may be saved from sin and its consequences, most importantly, spiritual death. Man, in his fallen state, committed theocide, the greatest crime in human history. The creature killed the Creator. In return, this incredible, loving God, in the state of complete and utter innocence, took all of our sins upon Himself and nailed them to the cross. He defeated death that we might live. Where Adam disobeyed God, Jesus remained obedient to His Father. Jesus is the antithesis of Adam.
Your base beliefs about the the nature of man and the nature of God prevent you from understanding this truth. You have a difficult time distinuishing between the Creator and the created. We will never be the Creator, even though He humbled himself to become one of us; as we were originally created to be, not in our fallen state. Christ, being the Almighty God and Creator, could never inherit a fallen state any more than oil can mix with water. This is where you stumble. God was never as we now are. And even though we will live and share in God’s divine life, we will always be creatures and He will always be the Creator. The first lie ever told to man is alive and well today. I caution you not to fall for it.
That is a well known tactic: when you have no more answers to give, create a diversion by attacking Mormonism!
You still haven’t answered my question: How was it possible for Jesus, who was God, to be tempted, whereas James tells us that God cannot be tempted?
I think I see one of the problems we are having. You are not paying attention to my responses.That is a well known tactic: when you have no more answers to give, create a diversion by attacking Mormonism!
You still haven’t answered my question: How was it possible for Jesus, who was God, to be tempted, whereas James tells us that God cannot be tempted?
Originally Posted by zerinus
You still haven’t answered my question of how it was possible for Jesus who was God to be tempted, while James tells us that God cannot be tempted?
I have, obviously, already answerd this question but have never received a response back. I’d love to hear it.Originally Posted by SteveVH
Have you not read in Scripture (Mt 4:1-11) where the devil tempted Jesus, while He was fasting, with turning stones into bread and asking Him to throw Himself down from the parapet of the Temple so that His angles might save Him and then offering Him all of the kingdoms of the world if only He would bow down and worship Satan? How can you say that Jesus could not be tempted? Scripture is very clear on this point.
I am thinking hard to find out just whom you are trying to fool. I don’t think it is me, so it must be your fellow Catholics.I think I see one of the problems we are having. You are not paying attention to my responses.
Why don’t you go back and look at Post #44, which in part contains this discussion:
I have, obviously, already answerd this question but have never received a response back. I’d love to hear it.
Yes zerinus, I rather enjoy spending my time trying to fool my fellow Catholics.I am thinking hard to find out just whom you are trying to fool. I don’t think it is me, so it must be your fellow Catholics.
Well thank you for your comments but rather vague and self-contradictory statements like the following caused me to think you may lack understanding of the Catholic doctrine of OS and haven’t fully developed one of your own either:Thank you for your comments, but you have not addressed the specific points I had raised. Steve did a better job of that than you are doing.
See above. Paul isn’t saying that they became sinners without committing any sins. He is saying that we became sinners because the sin of one man brought sin into the world, as a result of which we became sinners because of our own sins.
Your fellow Catholics are a lot smarter than you think they are. I certainly have more respect for their intelligence than you seem to do.Yes zerinus, I rather enjoy spending my time trying to fool my fellow Catholics.
"Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the desert to be tempted by the devil. He fasted for forty days and forty nights, and afterwords he was hungry. The tempter approached and said to him, “If you are the Son of God, command that these stones become loaves of bread.” (Matthew 4:1-3)
If that is not enough then take a look at Hebrews:
"For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are - yet was without sin." (Heb 4:15)
Why are you answering the questions that I did not ask, and not answering the question that I did ask? No doubt because you don’t have an answer to the question that I asked, so you get round it by answering a question that I did not ask. Again, whom are you trying to fool? Not me, I assure you.So do you have a response other than accusing me of trying to fool someone?
That was my reading of what Paul had said, and I believe it is the correct reading.Well thank you for your comments but rather vague and self-contradictory statements like the following caused me to think you may lack understanding of the Catholic doctrine of OS and haven’t fully developed one of your own either:
ClarityThe fact that Jesus was tempted was a point in the Gospels showing He was human like us but did not sin.
Part of His mission was to break the power of sin, which His crucifixion and resurrection accomplished.
And the Ten Commandments essentially tell us what virtue is by describing what is sinful to God.
Christ’s divinity is in that He was the means, the Living Word of God, of bringing creation into this world. Christ always was and is with the Father and Spirit, and these Personhoods in Christ.
Here is our chance to be as gods…with the divinity of Christ in God coming to our humanity, but requiring us to die to ourselves, renouncing sin, and living instead from the Divine Presence within us through His Body,Blood, Soul, and Divinity.
The convictions of the Catechism is that Jesus Christ is the answer to sin, be it original or our own.
This is the crux of the matter, the difference in our concepts of OS. If children weren’t “guilty”, if they weren’t born different (lacking) in some manner than how God would have them be, then they would lack nothing. Why is it that all men sin now? The reason that “sinners can become holy again through faith in Jesus Christ” is precisely, simply, because faith (in God) is one of the virtues that died in mans heart when he sinned. Along with that he unavoidably lost hope in God, and, most importantly, lost love.We become unholy when we commit sin. Little children are holy. It is only when they grow up and start committing sin that they become unholy. They do not become unholy because of the Original Sin, but their own sins. Sinners can become holy again through faith in Jesus Christ, repentance of their sins, and baptism. That is why members of God’s true Church are called “saints”. A saint is someone who is sanctified or made holy.
You do understand that I was being sarcastic, right?Your fellow Catholics are a lot smarter than you think they are. I certainly have more respect for their intelligence than you seem to do.
What question have I answered that you have not asked? Your question, zerinus, was how is it possible"for Jesus who was God to be tempted, while James tells us that God cannot be tempted?" Rather than give just my opinion, I have given you Scripture to prove that He was, indeed,"tempted in every way, just as we are". This is what happens when you pick out one verse in Scripture as a proof text without placing it in context with the rest of Scripture. You must understand that first, before you can understand the meaning of the verse in James. Instead of refuting my answer, you instead accuse me of not having an answer. I feel like I’m living in bizarro world.Why are you answering the questions that I did not ask, and not answering the question that I did ask? No doubt because you don’t have an answer to the question that I asked, so you get round it by answering a question that I did not ask. Again, whom are you trying to fool? Not me, I assure you.
They certainly don’t. Who said children lack something? The Bible doesn’t. Whatever they may lack, it certainly isn’t holiness. The Bible says children are saved. You will only become saved if you are lucky enough to become like them!This is the crux of the matter, the difference in our concepts of OS. If children weren’t “guilty”, if they weren’t born different (lacking) in some manner than how God would have them be, then they would lack nothing.
All men sin, but children don’t!Why is it that all men sin now?
According to the Bible, children don’t lack any of those things. They believe in Him, already! You are the one who needs to believe in God, and love Him. Children have done that already.Fulfilling the greatest commandments-to love God with your whole heart, soul, mind and strength and your neighbor as yourself, is what is lacking in man-as well as children.
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*I want to point out that I am in agreement with Steve and do not find anything confusing in his writings. He has willingly gone down in the mud with you. It’s not easy and I commend you Steve. Do not forget that you are helping all of those who view this but do not respond. In the future you might want to take a break. You don’t have to hold it all up yourself. Others will come in just like you because our beliefs are pretty solid and clear. ***
Thanks Rich. Until quite recently I did feel that I was on my own here. Not that I mind at all, but you’re right, this gets to be exhausting and I appreciate your comments. I will say, however, that I am not as much on my own as zerinus and the other Mormon posters on this forum. We start getting to one another which is a shame because I certainly admire the fact that they are here at all and respect their courage and tenacity.
James was talking about God; and as far as I knew there is only one God, in Judaism or Christianity alike.The verse in James which reads "Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted by evil, neither tempteth he any man." is not speaking of God incarnate. James is a very Jewish document and the use of the word God refers always to the Father, in which evil finds no allure.
What was it that made it possible for Jesus to be tempted, whereas He was God, and by definition God cannot be tempted, as James said?It was Jesus, in his humanity, that was subject to temptation, as I have documented, and it was Jesus who remained perfect, not giving in to temptation. Jesus was tested, not his Father.
That is the question that I had asked you, smart guy! You don’t answer somebody’s question by asking back the same question from them.So what is your response to the verses I have shown you? Back to the subject, how do you reconcile these with your position that Jesus could not be tempted?
They certainly don’t. Who said children lack something? The Bible doesn’t. Whatever they may lack, it certainly isn’t holiness. The Bible says children are saved. You will only become saved if you are lucky enough to become like them!
All men sin, but children don’t!
According to the Bible, children don’t lack any of those things. They believe in Him, already! You are the one who needs to believe in God, and love Him. Children have done that already.
That simply does not mean that we inherit the guilt of Adam. It means that we become sinners as a result of the Fall because of our own sins committed as a result of our fallen nature, giving Satan power over us to tempt us to cause us to sin.
OK, so which is it? Do we all commit an OS for ourselves or did Adam’s sin mean nothing except for himself? What is a fallen nature? You don’t seem to be saying that only adults have this characteristic. What is different about children?No, you are misreading my comment. We become sinners entirely through our own sins, which sins are caused partly as a result of the Fall making us subject to the temptations of the devil.
I have answered your question in as much detail as I am capable of doing. You refuse, in turn, to answer my question and ignore the Scriptures I have placed in front of you because they absolutely refute your position. Instead, you prefer to just insult me. I actually expected a lot more from you.James was talking about God; and as far as I knew there is only one God, in Judaism or Christianity alike.
What was it that made it possible for Jesus to be tempted, whereas He was God, and by definition God cannot be tempted, as James said?
That is the question that I had asked you, smart guy! You don’t answer somebody’s question by asking back the same question from them.