Mormons: Your take on the concept of "Orginal Sin"

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zerinus said:
You have a point there. My apologies for that. It is difficult in an online discussion to always be precise in your language. In the first expression I was trying to emphasize the fact that baptism was for the remission of sins, and not for receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost, which is what SteveVH was asserting.
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My assertion was that we receive baptism for the remission of sins AND for the gift of new life through the Holy Spirit who santifies us and cleanses our souls, not either/or.
 
SteveVH said:
My assertion was that we receive baptism for the remission of sins AND for the gift of new life through the Holy Spirit who santifies us and cleanses our souls, not either/or.
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You were saying that Baptism is for the remission of sins AND for receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost; and you are wrong; and I disagree with you on that.
 
KathleenGee said:
A moving target…he is gleaning as much as he can…I have had a very hard time understanding his line of thinking for some time…I don’t see how any lurker can follow the thought in discerning the right way for themselves either.

It is a game to me. I am longer participating with this individual. He can use somebody else.
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Mmmmm. Kathleen I took the time to read the blog that you have referred to and I agree.

I have begun to wonder if his presence here is truly genuine or has a more veiled motivation.

Seems pretty disingenuious doesn’t it. 😦

By going by his blog his desires don’t really seem to be finding some sort of common ground. But maybe he is just looking to find ammunion to fire away at others and validate his own views…

Sad and unChrist-like IMO. 😦
 
Can’t follow him…

But my husband had more tv stations added…

I went to the Mormon station, listened to beautiful Classical Christian Texts…sung by the BYU choir…I think I will stay more connected with the Mormon choir…
 
KathleenGee said:
Can’t follow him…
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Understand…

Just follow Our Lord…That is all that ever matters…

The rest of us frail and weak human beings dont…

You are a good example of what is of value and Whom we should always and only focus on…

Thank you, Kathleen, for your example.

Stay solid and unmovable in that.
I know I need it
God Bless.
 
KathleenGee said:
Can’t follow him…

But my husband had more tv stations added…

I went to the Mormon station, listened to beautiful Classical Christian Texts…sung by the BYU choir…I think I will stay more connected with the Mormon choir…
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MOTab is GREAT!..Had a friend who was a member in the not too distant past…

Majestic sound of glorious singing no doubt!! 👍

I do believe it was St Augustine who said that to sing is to pray twice

Amen!!!
 
Yes, Marie that is it!

By Job you got it! Let’s sing and pray …no users here.
 
zerinus said:
You have a point there. My apologies for that. It is difficult in an online discussion to always be precise in your language. In the first expression I was trying to emphasize the fact that baptism was for the remission of sins, and not for receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost, which is what SteveVH was asserting.
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OK. Thanks for the clarification. Sorry for the misunderstanding. But I still disagree with you, and think you are wrong. 😃

Peace,
Robert
 
zerinus said:
You were saying that Baptism is for the remission of sins AND for receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost; and you are wrong; and I disagree with you on that.
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Zerinus, I have no doubt that the Holy Spirit has nothing to do with Mormon baptism, but He has everything to do with Catholic baptism.
 
SteveVH said:
Zerinus, I have no doubt that the Holy Spirit has nothing to do with Mormon baptism, but He has everything to do with Catholic baptism.
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The Holy Spirit has something to do with every aspect of Mormonism; but the gift of the Holy Ghost is given by the sacrament of the laying on of hands, not by baptism.
 
zerinus said:
The Holy Spirit has something to do with every aspect of Mormonism; but the gift of the Holy Ghost is given by the sacrament of the laying on of hands, not by baptism.
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If the Holy Spirit has something to do with every aspect of Mormonism, then what does He have to do with Mormon baptism?
 
SteveVH said:
If the Holy Spirit has something to do with every aspect of Mormonism, then what does He have to do with Mormon baptism?
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You are learning to ask clever questions! Okay, here is the answer to your question: Although we are baptized for the remission of sins, the actualy remission of sins comes by the power of the Holy Ghost, and that remission may even precede baptism. The intent is sufficient to bring about the remission of sins by the power of the Holy Ghost, even prior to baptism taking place, as shown by the second quote:

D&C 19:

31 And of tenets thou shalt not talk, but thou shalt declare repentance and faith on the Savior, and remission of sins by baptism, and by fire, yea, even the Holy Ghost.

D&C 20:

37 And again, by way of commandment to the church concerning the manner of baptism—All those who humble themselves before God, and desire to be baptized, and come forth with broken hearts and contrite spirits, and witness before the church that they have truly repented of all their sins, and are willing to take upon them the name of Jesus Christ, having a determination to serve him to the end, and truly manifest by their works that they have received of the Spirit of Christ unto the remission of their sins, shall be received by baptism into his church.

This is not the same as the gift of the Holy Ghost that is given by the laying on of hands after baptism.
 
zerinus said:
You are learning to ask clever questions! Okay, here is the answer to your question: Although we are baptized for the remission of sins, the actualy remission of sins comes by the power of the Holy Ghost, and that remission may even precede baptism. The intent is sufficient to bring about the remission of sins by the power of the Holy Ghost, even prior to baptism taking place, as shown by the second quote:

This is not the same as the gift of the Holy Ghost that is given by the laying on of hands after baptism.
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Zerinus, as you know, this is almost exactly what I have been saying all along and what you have refused to recognize. It is why I have said that there is a difference, in Catholicism, between the function of the Holy Spirit in Baptism and in Confirmation. In Baptism our souls are cleansed and we receive new life from the Holy Spirit. In Confirmation we receive the gifts of the Holy Spirit through the laying on of hands and anointing with chrism. Regardless, the action of the Holy Spirit is imperative in both.
 
SteveVH said:
Zerinus, as you know, this is almost exactly what I have been saying all along and what you have refused to recognize. It is why I have said that there is a difference, in Catholicism, between the function of the Holy Spirit in Baptism and in Confirmation. In Baptism our souls are cleansed and we receive new life from the Holy Spirit. In Confirmation we receive the gifts of the Holy Spirit through the laying on of hands and anointing with chrism. Regardless, the action of the Holy Spirit is imperative in both.
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That is not what you were saying. You were saying that the gift of the Holy Ghost comes by baptism, and the laying on of hands merely strengthens that gift. In Mormonism that is not how it works. In Mormonism the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands is a different thing entirely.
 
zerinus said:
That is not what you were saying. You were saying that the gift of the Holy Ghost comes by baptism, and the laying on of hands merely strengthens that gift. In Mormonism that is not how it works. In Mormonism the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands is a different thing entirely.
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Why do you think you have to limit the action and effectiveness of the Holy Spirit? He is present in every sacrament, first in Baptism. Zerinus, I realize that there is a huge difference in how we look at this. First of all we don’t recognize that you even have valid sacraments as we do not recognize that you have any authority to administer the sacraments. This entire thread will give you an idea of why the Church takes this position. Our ideas and beliefs are so far removed from one another that we certainly are not speaking of the same thing when we use the word sacrament.

I have given you the Catholic perspective on sacraments so that you would understand what we mean, not so you would agree with it. I don’t expect that anymore than you expect me to agree with you. Nevertheless I am interested in what you believe and how you define terms in order to better communicate.
 
SteveVH said:
Why do you think you have to limit the action and effectiveness of the Holy Spirit? He is present in every sacrament, first in Baptism. Zerinus, I realize that there is a huge difference in how we look at this. First of all we don’t recognize that you even have valid sacraments as we do not recognize that you have any authority to administer the sacraments. This entire thread will give you an idea of why the Church takes this position. Our ideas and beliefs are so far removed from one another that we certainly are not speaking of the same thing when we use the word sacrament.

I have given you the Catholic perspective on sacraments so that you would understand what we mean, not so you would agree with it. I don’t expect that anymore than you expect me to agree with you. Nevertheless I am interested in what you believe and how you define terms in order to better communicate.
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Thank you. I have also given you the Mormon perspective on the sacraments so that you can have your question answered. I hope you have now a better understanding of the Mormon idea of sacrament—or as we call them, ordinances of the gospel.
 
zerinus said:
Thank you. I have also given you the Mormon perspective on the sacraments so that you can have your question answered. I hope you have now a better understanding of the Mormon idea of sacrament—or as we call them, ordinances of the gospel.
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Thank you. I do.
 
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