Mortal and venial sin

[pghguy]

I recently found out, that probably in part to my diagnosed OCD, I suffer from a condition called scrupulosity.

It never really came out until about 2 weeks ago but when it did, it hit me in full force.

I’ve searched the apologetics forums with little benefit and finally found one that gave me insight into this condition and resources on it.

The first thing I want to tell everyone is that while we are all sinners, it is actually VERY HARD to commit a mortal sin.

While venial sins are easily measurable, the task of measuring if a sin is mortal or not is very difficult. And, very few if any sins are mortal by themselves.

According to the good people at Scrupulosity Anonymous, there is a much easier way to understand the gravity of a sin than the typical 3 step process given by most when asked about such a subject. Here it is:

“For serious sin or mortal sin to be present, a
person must freely and deliberately choose the
particular action that is sinful, must choose the
action with the intention of offending God, and
the action itself must be serious.”

So, while one and maybe two of the three factors are present quite often - deliberate choice and serious action, it’s a good bet that the third (intention of offending God) is something I would think is VERY RARE.

So, while we are all sinners, do not make yourself into a ball of complete fear and self loathing. More than likely, you’re not as bad as you think you are.

 

[DexUK]

Sounds like a good way to describe it. I hope you find the peace to be able to live that understanding.

 

[Bookcat]

I recently found out, that probably in part to my diagnosed OCD, I suffer from a condition called scrupulosity.

It never really came out until about 2 weeks ago but when it did, it hit me in full force.

I’ve searched the apologetics forums with little benefit and finally found one that gave me insight into this condition and resources on it.

The first thing I want to tell everyone is that while we are all sinners, it is actually VERY HARD to commit a mortal sin.

While venial sins are easily measurable, the task of measuring if a sin is mortal or not is very difficult. And, very few if any sins are mortal by themselves.

According to the good people at Scrupulosity Anonymous, there is a much easier way to understand the gravity of a sin than the typical 3 step process given by most when asked about such a subject. Here it is:

“For serious sin or mortal sin to be present, a
person must freely and deliberately choose the
particular action that is sinful, must choose the
action with the intention of offending God, and
the action itself must be serious.”

So, while one and maybe two of the three factors are present quite often - deliberate choice and serious action, it’s a good bet that the third (intention of offending God) is something I would think is VERY RARE.

So, while we are all sinners, do not make yourself into a ball of complete fear and self loathing. More than likely, you’re not as bad as you think you are.

Hello,

Sorry to hear about your OCD and scrupulosity …but glad you are getting assistance with them. (SA has many very good things…)

I have been quite active here on the forum seeking to assist those with scruples or scrupulosity…so I certainly do not want to make things worse for ya…

However I have to address the truth in these things… (your true peace will be in truth…)

I would not characterize committing mortal sin as HARD…but rather that one needs to be very clear as to what is required to commit a mortal sin. One has to have that grave matter…and the full knowledge and give that complete consent…or no mortal sin…

(though for someone really seeking to follow Christ …I suppose one could say it is hard in a way……)

Also your idea about “needing to intend to offend God” is not quite correct…yes one can commit a mortal sin in this way…but it is not needed…

One does NOT need to “have the intention of seriously offending God” Pope John Paul II has noted that it can be done for any reason…so it is not required that one have such an intention…

But yes there needs to be deliberate consent!!

What then is required?:

The Compendium of the Catechism tells us:

1. When does one commit a mortal sin?

1855-1861
1874

One commits a mortal sin when there are simultaneously present: grave matter, full knowledge, and deliberate consent. This sin destroys charity in us, deprives us of sanctifying grace, and, if unrepented, leads us to the eternal death of hell. It can be forgiven in the ordinary way by means of the sacraments of Baptism and of Penance or Reconciliation.

1. When does one commit a venial sin?

1862-1864
1875

One commits a venial sin, which is essentially different from a mortal sin, when the matter involved is less serious or, even if it is grave, when full knowledge or complete consent are absent. Venial sin does not break the covenant with God but it weakens charity and manifests a disordered affection for created goods. It impedes the progress of a soul in the exercise of the virtues and in the practice of moral good. It merits temporal punishment which purifies.

One does not need to “intend to offend God seriously” one has only to do what offends God seriously (grave matter) with full knowledge and complete (deliberate) consent…

But that then comes the scruples…one fears etc …one needs in such a case to have a regular confessor to help and to give principles to follow …

So certainly DO NOT SCRUPLE over things…simply avoid doing grave matters…for example do not murder anyone…commit adultery…lie under oath in court…etc

and resist your scruples…stand firm against them with the help of your confessor…

and get a regular confessor…

(and if I can be of help let me know.)

As a Carthusian put it hundreds of years ago…

Scruples are to be treated like a barking do or hissing goose…one does not attempt to reason with a barking dog or goose…one keeps walking. So when scruples arises…turn to God and let them pass by…

In Christ wishing you peace in Him

BC

 

[Joe_5859]

Great response, Bookcat. I was thinking the same thing.

 

[rwoehmke]

Do you think that freely choosing sin over God does not offend him?

 

[pghguy]

Hello,

Sorry to hear about your OCD and scrupulosity …but glad you are getting assistance with them. (SA has many very good things…)

I have been quite active here on the forum seeking to assist those with scruples or scrupulosity…so I certainly do not want to make things worse for ya…

However I have to address the truth in these things… (your true peace will be in truth…)

I would not characterize committing mortal sin as HARD…but rather that one needs to be very clear as to what is required to commit a mortal sin. One has to have that grave matter…and the full knowledge and give that complete consent…or no mortal sin…

(though for someone really seeking to follow Christ …I suppose one could say it is hard in a way……)

Also your idea about “needing to intend to offend God” is not quite correct…yes one can commit a mortal sin in this way…but it is not needed…

One does NOT need to “have the intention of seriously offending God” Pope John Paul II has noted that it can be done for any reason…so it is not required that one have such an intention…

But yes there needs to be deliberate consent!!

What then is required?:

The Compendium of the Catechism tells us:

1. When does one commit a mortal sin?

1855-1861
1874

One commits a mortal sin when there are simultaneously present: grave matter, full knowledge, and deliberate consent. This sin destroys charity in us, deprives us of sanctifying grace, and, if unrepented, leads us to the eternal death of hell. It can be forgiven in the ordinary way by means of the sacraments of Baptism and of Penance or Reconciliation.

1. When does one commit a venial sin?

1862-1864
1875

One commits a venial sin, which is essentially different from a mortal sin, when the matter involved is less serious or, even if it is grave, when full knowledge or complete consent are absent. Venial sin does not break the covenant with God but it weakens charity and manifests a disordered affection for created goods. It impedes the progress of a soul in the exercise of the virtues and in the practice of moral good. It merits temporal punishment which purifies.

One does not need to “intend to offend God seriously” one has only to do what offends God seriously (grave matter) with full knowledge and complete (deliberate) consent…

But that then comes the scruples…one fears etc …one needs in such a case to have a regular confessor to help and to give principles to follow …

So certainly DO NOT SCRUPLE over things…simply avoid doing grave matters…for example do not murder anyone…commit adultery…lie under oath in court…etc

and resist your scruples…stand firm against them with the help of your confessor…

and get a regular confessor…

(and if I can be of help let me know.)

As a Carthusian put it hundreds of years ago…

Scruples are to be treated like a barking do or hissing goose…one does not attempt to reason with a barking dog or goose…one keeps walking. So when scruples arises…turn to God and let them pass by…

In Christ wishing you peace in Him

BC

With all due respect, I’m going to opt to go with the information I was provided by a member of the clergy. thanks for your thoughts though.

 

[pghguy]

Do you think that freely choosing sin over God does not offend him?

Sure, I suppose it does but the important thing is your intent, so teels the the awesome Rev. Joseph Nolen, C.Ss.R. of Scrupulous Anonymous, whcih being somebody who obviously has gone through years of theological training, would surly be more of an authority and have more knowledge on the subject than any of us guys.

 

[revert_jen]

With all due respect, I’m going to opt to go with the information I was provided by a member of the clergy. thanks for your thoughts though.

That’s a great idea, and I’m glad you have found such helpful information for you. I’m sure that for someone who suffers from scruples, the advce you received was just fine and you should go with it.

However, it is not advice that is really appropriate to most people. People who are not scrupulous need very different advice than those who are. Those of us who are not scrupulous would be happy to think that advice for the scrupulous would be OK for us, because then we would hardly need to worry about sinning at all.

For example, if I wanted to commit fornication, and I knew full well that it was grave matter and decided consciously to do it anyway, that would be a mortal sin. If I used your definition, I could say that the purpose of the act was not to offend God–that was just an unhappy side effect. The intended purpose was physical pleasure or commitment from or to someone I was dating, or whatever. So by your definition (designed for those with scruples, who are in no danger of reasoning in the faulty way I have outlined) I could say that it was not a mortal sin. However, by the definitions from the Catechism, I could not do so. And it would be correct that I should not do so, since it would certainly be a mortal sin.

The information that Bookcat gave, coming from the Compendium, is advice that is much more safely given to people as a whole, does in fact represent advice from members of the clergy, and is based on the Catechism which is part of the ordinary magesterium of the Church–which gives it a much higher authority for Catholics in general than a website written by a single priest, however knowledgeable. The advice you received is only good for those who suffer from scrupulosity. You may well have only meant to address your post to the scrupulous when you posted it, but that was not clear from the way the post was worded. It sounded like you were posting it as advice for everyone.

Unfortunately, many of us who do not suffer from scruples are not in fact as bad as we think we are, but quite possibly much worse. Those who suffer from scruples probably are much better than they think they are. That is why the same advice is not good for both.

But the best advice for anyone who thinks they might suffer from scruples is to talk about it in person with a priest. Let him tell you whether you are indeed scrupulous before deciding what advice to take. (This is intended for the readers of the thread, not particularly for the OP.) Sometimes it’s hard to tell the difference between scrupulosity and a healthy and holy sense of our own sinfulness, when we are looking at our own selves. It is usually not at all hard for a priest to tell the difference.

–Jen

 

[Bookcat]

Do you think that freely choosing sin over God does not offend him?

Of course it does…but one does not have to “intend this”…have this in ones mind and will…

 

[Bookcat]

With all due respect, I’m going to opt to go with the information I was provided by a member of the clergy. thanks for your thoughts though.

How about Pope John Paul II ? I think he qualifies…hee hee

(by the way I do have a degree in theology from F.Unv. of Steubenville… )

 

[Bookcat]

And of course this is the clear teaching of the Church in the Compendium and the Catechism etc…

One does not have to intend to offend God seriously to commit a mortal sin.

Hummm…lets think about this…I want to rob a bank but not cause I want to offend God Seriously…so it is not a mortal sin?

Or someone has an abortion to get rid of the having to take care of a baby…but not to offend God seriously …they certainly do not want to do that…

such would not be a mortal sin?

No they would both be a mortal sin if there was full knowledge and full consent…

even though “offending God seriously” never crossed their mind.

Sorry to be so blunt …but this is the case. One does not defeat scrupulosity by adding another criteria to the requirements of mortal sin. One does so by having a good confessor and following the teachings of the Church with his help…

Remember though in order to commit a mortal sin one needs all three together:

Grave Matter

Full knowledge

and complete consent

All three need to be there at the same time…

It is done deliberately …

So I certainly do not want you to scruple…but I have to note that the extra criteria there is not according to the how the Church judges things…

 

[Bookcat]

“For mortal sin exists also when a person knowingly and willingly, for whatever reason, chooses something gravely disordered.” John Paul II Veritatis Spendor

One does not have to “intend to offend God seriously”…one has only to choose something that is grave matter with full knowledge and full consent…

So if one murders someone cause one did not like them…but not to offend God seriously…it is still a mortal sin if done with full knowledge and full consent

If one engages in sexual pleasure outside of marriage…but not to offend God seriously…it is still a mortal sin if done with full knowledge and full consent

If one steals $100,000 but not to offend God seriously…it is still a mortal sin if done with full knowledge and full consent…

etc

For whatever reason he chooses it.

Now a person with scrupulosity and more so with OCD is going to be in a unique position…they may need to follow certain principles that an ordinary conscience would not…especially under the direction of a confessor (…but one “intend to offend God seriously” to commit a mortal sin has not been classically among them…what they do do though is help one ignore ones erronious doubts…)…but in any case let those with scrupulosity seek the help of a good confessor and learn to ignore the scruples…let them pass by…slowing informing their conscience so they may again follow the prudent course more and more…and let them know that mortal sin needs all three aspects to be mortal…

Again I very much want you to find peace…and joy. Scrupulosity can rob you of such…I wish you such joy in Christ!

 

[Bookcat]

PS: since you mentioned OCD let me pass this onto you…

it may be of some help in case you suffer from what he notes here (From Jimmy Akin chief Apologist at Catholic Answers)

jimmyakin.org/2005/04/a_crown_of_thor.html

 

[Bookcat]

Sure, I suppose it does but the important thing is your intent, so teels the the awesome Rev. Joseph Nolen, C.Ss.R. of Scrupulous Anonymous, whcih being somebody who obviously has gone through years of theological training, would surly be more of an authority and have more knowledge on the subject than any of us guys.

Perhaps Father was just trying to put emphasis on the fact that one needs full knowledge and deliberate consent and choose a unhappy formulation …

Even the best can have a slip of the pen…or keypad

Not to say he does did has not written a lot of good things that can be helpful to those with scrupulosity…but it is for certain that one does not need to “intend to offend God seriously” in order to commit a mortal sin.

But it is true that such does not “happen by accident” one has to have that required knowledge and deliberate consent to the grave matter…this is likely what he meant…

 

[pghguy]

Perhaps Father was just trying to put emphasis on the fact that one needs full knowledge and deliberate consent and choose a unhappy formulation …

Even the best can have a slip of the pen…or keypad

Not to say he does did has not written a lot of good things that can be helpful to those with scrupulosity…but it is for certain that one does not need to “intend to offend God seriously” in order to commit a mortal sin.

But it is true that such does not “happen by accident” one has to have that required knowledge and deliberate consent to the grave matter…this is likely what he meant…

Then of course we have that issue, whether or not something is done in knowledge or with deliberate consent.

I’m not sure if deliberate consent is really an issue, how can you do anything without deliberate consent? But knowledge is a different story. Which makes it also a hit or miss thing. What are we to base knowledge on? Especially since many within our own religion, including priests and bishops, cannot agree on a lot of issues. It seems to me, uless this issues is clear-cut, and there is no real differences in opinions among church authorities, then knowledge is unlikely.

For example, of course we have no dissent on murder and rape and such being sins. However, we do have dissent on some other hot topics.

 

[pghguy]

Then of course we have that issue, whether or not something is done in knowledge or with deliberate consent.

I’m not sure if deliberate consent is really an issue, how can you do anything without deliberate consent? But knowledge is a different story. Which makes it also a hit or miss thing. What are we to base knowledge on? Especially since many within our own religion, including priests and bishops, cannot agree on a lot of issues. It seems to me, uless this issues is clear-cut, and there is no real differences in opinions among church authorities, then knowledge is unlikely.

For example, of course we have no dissent on murder and rape and such being sins. However, we do have dissent on some other hot topics.

Two key examples are tattoos and masturbation.

 

[Bookcat]

Then of course we have that issue, whether or not something is done in knowledge or with deliberate consent.

I’m not sure if deliberate consent is really an issue, how can you do anything without deliberate consent? But knowledge is a different story. Which makes it also a hit or miss thing. What are we to base knowledge on? Especially since many within our own religion, including priests and bishops, cannot agree on a lot of issues. It seems to me, uless this issues is clear-cut, and there is no real differences in opinions among church authorities, then knowledge is unlikely.

For example, of course we have no dissent on murder and rape and such being sins. However, we do have dissent on some other hot topics.

Deliberate consent is important…but anyhow to touch still on consent…

…perhaps often more helpful especially with temptations etc is the term “full consent”…if one does not give full consent…no matter how much the temptation comes and tempts you against your will…or even if there is some hesitation (hence partial consent) if full consent is not there…not a mortal sin…

As to knowledge…one must inform himself with the likes as the Catechism or the Compendium or other good sources (like Catholic Answers Show and articles etc) …the Church is very clear as to what is what…and in “new things” or “disputed things” that come up one can learn to know the solid orthodox moral theologians etc who “think with the Church” and look to them …

and of course in regards to your scruples in particular…get a good confessor.

Read the section of the CCC on Conscience…

 

[Bookcat]

Two key examples are tattoos and masturbation.

Masterbation is clear --it is a grave matter for mortal sin. Yes there can be factors that reduce guilt subjectively --see the CCC (one can speak with ones confessor) but it is a grave matter …

Tattoos …one can have divided opinions here. If in excess…like other things…they are sinful…but otherwise there can be legit opinion here for the Church has not defined anything…or does not per se teach that they are sinful. Some things are like this…no settled teaching of the Church and legit “schools of thought” only as good as the argument…

jimmyakin.typepad.com/defensor_fidei/2004/03/tattoos.html

jimmyakin.typepad.com/defensor_fidei/2004/03/still_yet_more_.html

But I HIGHLY encourage persons not to get them…for they are hard to get rid of (I do not have any but I know those who do)

 

[pghguy]

Deliberate consent is important…but anyhow to touch still on consent…

…perhaps often more helpful especially with temptations etc is the term “full consent”…if one does not give full consent…no matter how much the temptation comes and tempts you against your will…or even if there is some hesitation (hence partial consent) if full consent is not there…not a mortal sin…

As to knowledge…one must inform himself with the likes as the Catechism or the Compendium or other good sources (like Catholic Answers Show and articles etc) …the Church is very clear as to what is what…and in “new things” or “disputed things” that come up one can learn to know the solid orthodox moral theologians etc who “think with the Church” and look to them …

and of course in regards to your scruples in particular…get a good confessor.

Read the section of the CCC on Conscience…

The CCC is so confusing and hard to follow, even if you’re really educated.

So is your first paragraph. RC teachings are very hard to wrap your head around.

 

[pghguy]

The CCC is so confusing and hard to follow, even if you’re really educated.

So is your first paragraph. RC teachings are very hard to wrap your head around.

It seems nearly everything human is a grave matter!