Mortal sin and damnation

[nkelly]

Hello all,

I’ve been thinking about the Church’s teaching on damnation and death in mortal sin and the terrible implication of this.

This teaching automatically condemns all non-catholics to hell
because they’re by definition not baptized and can’t therefore avail of Holy Communion and confession and given that the chances are that 99.999% of us have commited mortal sins at some point in our lives.

In the case of baptized catholics, given that many don’t go or occasionally go to mass and receive communion and even fewer avail of the sacrament of confession, again the implication is that many of us catholics will be damned!

Why oh why aren’t priests shouting this teaching from the roof-tops!?

BTW, I’m just wondering on what passage(s) in scripture is this teaching based. If I were to say to a friend/family member that they will go to hell if they die in mortal sin, I’d like to be able to quote something from the bible to support this.

God bless and may you never die in mortal sin!

Noel.

---

O Mary, Immaculate Mother of Jesus, we beseech thee,
offer to the Eternal Father the Precious Blood of Thy Divine Son,
to prevent at least one mortal sin from being committed
somewhere in the world today. Amen.

O Mary, most sorrowful Mother of all Christians, pray for us.

---

 

[BibleReader]

nkellyI've been thinking about the Church's teaching on damnation and death in mortal sin and the terrible implication of this.:

It’s not as simple as you urge. God forgives the invincibly ignorant and recognizes Baptism of Desire anmd Baptism of Blood, and judges these based on Natural Law.

So, then skeptics ask, “Why the Sacraments? Who needs them?” The answer is that God’s salvation process through the Church is God’s preferred conduit, and that once this is recognized, the Invincible Ignorance and Baptism of Desire excuses evaporate, generating a responsibility to convert.

 

[Tom]

Hello Noel,
There are several issues in your text, I hope you don’t mind if I separate some.

nkelly:

I’ve been thinking about the Church’s teaching on damnation and death in mortal sin and the terrible implication of this.

I don’t mean to sound judgmental but it sounds like you’re either confusing what’s written in the CCC or taking it out of context. The teaching of the Church is not as harsh as you are portraying.
I’d start with the CCC Para 413-421, these are the summary of the fall of man, which introduced sin into the world. Yes, if you are in mortal sin and willfully reject God and die, you’re going to hell, but if you understand what this implies how could a rational person willfully do this?

nkelly:

This teaching automatically condemns all non-catholics to hell because they’re by definition not baptized and can’t therefore avail of Holy Communion and confession

No teaching of the Church that I have read “automatically” does anything. It doesn’t work that way. First of all it isn’t a “catholic versus Non Catholic” issue, please note the verbiage of CCC paragraph 421 below, it says “Christians” not Catholics.

CCC:

421 Christians believe that “the world has been established and kept in being by the Creator’s love; has fallen into slavery to sin but has been set free by Christ, crucified and risen to break the power of the evil one. . .” (GS 2 § 2).

nkelly:

given that the chances are that 99.999% of us have commited mortal sins at some point in our lives.

No, you can’t commit a mortal sin accidentally or carelessly, it is a willing knowledgeable rejection, it isn’t a mistake, and you must know fully well that it is a sin, of the ramifications of the action and take it in disobedience of Gods will.

CCC:

1872 Sin is an act contrary to reason. It wounds man’s nature and injures human solidarity.

I REALLY doubt 99.99% of people willfully, knowledgably, intentionally and completely reject God.

CCC:

1874 To choose deliberately - that is, both knowing it and willing it - something gravely contrary to the divine law and to the ultimate end of man is to commit a mortal sin. This destroys in us the charity without which eternal beatitude is impossible. Unrepented, it brings eternal death.

This was one of Martin Luther’s’ problems, he thought every little mistake he made was a mortal sin, it isn’t.

CCC:

1871 Sin is an utterance, a deed, or a desire contrary to the eternal law (St. Augustine, Faust 22L 42, 418). It is an offense against God. It rises up against God in a disobedience contrary to the obedience of Christ.

Can I suggest you review the Catechism of the Catholic Church a little more? Especially:
Chapter 1, article 8; Chapter 2; and Chapter 3.

 

[mercygate]

BibleReader:

It’s not as simple as you urge. God forgives the invincibly ignorant and recognizes Baptism of Desire anmd Baptism of Blood, and judges these based on Natural Law.

So, then skeptics ask, “Why the Sacraments? Who needs them?” The answer is that God’s salvation process through the Church is God’s preferred conduit, and that once this is recognized, the Invincible Ignorance and Baptism of Desire excuses evaporate, generating a responsibility to convert.

Sacraments are like God’s “handle” to heaven (OK, the simile is faulty). Sort of like the old “two boats and a helicopter” joke. God himself gives us these helps to Heaven. So why would we say: No thanks, Lord. I’ll just wait until you personally come down here again yourself and save me my way, without all this churchy stuff. :whacky:

 

[nkelly]

Hello Tom,

obviously I hope things are not as severe as they appear to
be in the CCC.

I’m basing what I said on the following articles:

1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, “eternal fire.”

1857 For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: "Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent."131

1858 Grave matter is specified by the Ten Commandments, corresponding to the answer of Jesus to the rich young man: “Do not kill, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and your mother.”

1859 Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent. It presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God’s law. It also implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice. Feigned ignorance and hardness of heart do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of a sin.

1860 Unintentional ignorance can diminish or even remove the imputability of a grave offense. But no one is deemed to be ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are written in the conscience of every man. The promptings of feelings and passions can also diminish the voluntary and free character of the offense, as can external pressures or pathological disorders. Sin committed through malice, by deliberate choice of evil, is the gravest.

1861 Mortal sin is a radical possibility of human freedom, as is love itself. It results in the loss of charity and the privation of sanctifying grace, that is, of the state of grace. If it is not redeemed by repentance and God’s forgiveness, it causes exclusion from Christ’s kingdom and the eternal death of hell, for our freedom has the power to make choices for ever, with no turning back. However, although we can judge that an act is in itself a grave offense, we must entrust judgment of persons to the justice and mercy of God.

Does the the CCC specify that these articles only apply to Catholics?

Regards,
Noel.

 

[BibleReader]

mercygate:

Sacraments are like God’s “handle” to heaven (OK, the simile is faulty). Sort of like the old “two boats and a helicopter” joke. God himself gives us these helps to Heaven. So why would we say: No thanks, Lord. I’ll just wait until you personally come down here again yourself and save me my way, without all this churchy stuff. :whacky:

I agree.

Buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut, you know that people will decide against the sacraments, anyway.

 

[mercygate]

BibleReader:

I agree.

Buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut, you know that people will decide against the sacraments, anyway.

Yup. But not because we haven’t tried to help them understand it. After we’ve done our best, then it’s between them and the Holy Spirit.

 

[Genesis315]

nkelly:

Hello Tom,

obviously I hope things are not as severe as they appear to
be in the CCC.

I’m basing what I said on the following articles:

Does the the CCC specify that these articles only apply to Catholics?

Regards,
Noel.

Nope, that applies to everyone. Hell is real. Real people go there because they choose to live and die in rebellion with God.

 

[Tom]

I suppose it’s the way we’re reading the same book. I think the CCC is “almost” lenient to a fault. Let’s take an example, honoring your mother and father. Grave matter right? One of the Ten. I get in an argument with my Dad, use heated words, and obviously am not honoring him. Is it a mortal sin? It depends, did I think about the offence to God when I was arguing? Probably not, so “some” of the guilt is relieved by not deliberately offending God, although I may have offended my Dad. When I used those heated words did I FULLY appreciate the eternal consequences of the act? Again, probably not, it was a heated argument, I didn’t think about much, so it wasn’t a deliberate act, it wasn’t done in full knowledge to my eternal salvation, and it wasn’t a mortal sin. Now let’s take this situation a little further. After the argument, I realize I was disrespectful, I now understand that it is also an offence to God, I am fully aware of the consequences, I also know the Words of Jesus, I am compelled to apologize to my father. If with this complete understanding, I choose, deliberately, to be obstinate and defy the Word of God, I am indeed committing a mortal sin. So, I decide I’m going to go and apologize, on the way I’m killed in an auto accident, did I die in mortal sin? Of course only God can tell, but by the CCC, I am not. My desire is to be in communion with God.
If I intentionally reject God, well, yeah, I’m going to hell. If we intentionally reject God should we go to heaven?

 

[reen12]

You might check the CCC, #1260

scborromeo.org/ccc/para/1260.htm

Best,
reen12

 

[nkelly]

1260 “Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery.” Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

I’m wondering therefore why does the Church teach that there is no salvation outside the church?

I know Jesus said there are many mansions in my Father’s house. Is it true that only Catholics are given the gift of the “Beatific Vision”?

God bless,
Noel.

 

[Genesis315]

nkelly:

I’m wondering therefore why does the Church teach that there is no salvation outside the church?

Because Baptism is what joins us to the Church–this includes Baptism by desire. All non-Catholics that end up being saved are still saved by Christ through the Church.

I know Jesus said there are many mansions in my Father’s house. Is it true that only Catholics are given the gift of the “Beatific Vision”?

No.

 

[emom]

I get so many contradicting views on committing moral sin. For example, if you steal - such as copy videos from a friend so you don’t have to buy them - You know that it is a sin against God, You do it any way and disobey, and you then ask for God’s forgiveness either in private or in confession. The next week or month, you struggle with the temptation and you do it again, because you fail to obey God. Isn’t this a mortal sin?

Or what about masterbation? So many people do it for self gratification, but the Catholic church says it is a mortal sin. Catholics with the desire not to do this, may have trouble with the temptation and give in to pleasure themselves. Aren’t they in mortal sin for thinking it through and doing it again and again. This behavior is human and physical need or lust that is very hard to over come?

 

[Genesis315]

emom:

I get so many contradicting views on committing moral sin. For example, if you steal - such as copy videos from a friend so you don’t have to buy them - You know that it is a sin against God, You do it any way and disobey, and you then ask for God’s forgiveness either in private or in confession. The next week or month, you struggle with the temptation and you do it again, because you fail to obey God. Isn’t this a mortal sin?

Or what about masterbation? So many people do it for self gratification, but the Catholic church says it is a mortal sin. Catholics with the desire not to do this, may have trouble with the temptation and give in to pleasure themselves. Aren’t they in mortal sin for thinking it through and doing it again and again. This behavior is human and physical need or lust that is very hard to over come?

Yeah, unfortunately there is no list of all the mortal sins. That’s why it’s so important to have a well formed conscience.

I don’t, at least for me, I KNOW when I have committed a mortal sin. It’s not something I do off the cuff or without thinking. Grave sins usually aren’t committed this way anyway. They are usually something that must be done deliberately. And it’s also something you know is wrong, but decide to do it anyway, regardless of the fact that it is in rebellion with God. Ack, no good.

As for the videos, I think that would be mortal sin because one is stealing for no good reason.

Yes, masturbation in the case you described would be mortal sin. Now, as the Catechism says, ingrained habit may mitigate culpability somewhat, but it’s till a grave matter that one needs to confess.

 

[mercygate]

emom:

I get so many contradicting views on committing moral sin. For example, if you steal - such as copy videos from a friend so you don’t have to buy them - You know that it is a sin against God, You do it any way and disobey, and you then ask for God’s forgiveness either in private or in confession. The next week or month, you struggle with the temptation and you do it again, because you fail to obey God. Isn’t this a mortal sin?

Or what about masterbation? So many people do it for self gratification, but the Catholic church says it is a mortal sin. Catholics with the desire not to do this, may have trouble with the temptation and give in to pleasure themselves. Aren’t they in mortal sin for thinking it through and doing it again and again. This behavior is human and physical need or lust that is very hard to over come?

I don’t understand the problem? We are flawed. We struggle. We fail. We fall. We get up. We beg pardon of God and receive absolution in confession. We do our best to make good on our firm purpose of amendment.

To me the problem would be in saying that because it is difficult to live in righteousness (OK, easier to fix the video thing than for a most people with sins of the flesh), the sinful behavior is not sinful. The peril to our souls comes when we stop getting up: when we stop turning to God in hope and trust. Always pray for hope.

 

[reen12]

Because Baptism is what joins us to the Church–this includes Baptism by desire. All non-Catholics that end up being saved are still saved by Christ through the Church.

Oh, well said, Genesis315. Concise, and conveys the
reality of what the RCC actually teaches. :tiphat:

“Brevity is the soul of wit.”

Hope your day goes well,

Maureen

 

[Matt16_18]

nkelly:

I’m wondering therefore why does the Church teach that there is no salvation outside the church?

There is no salvation outside the church because all the people in Heaven are part of the Catholic Church – they are the Church Triumphant.

I know Jesus said there are many mansions in my Father’s house. Is it true that only Catholics are given the gift of the “Beatific Vision”?

Yes, it is true that only Catholics see the Beatific Vision (which is just another way of saying that there are only Cathlolics in Heaven). There are no Buddhists, Lutherans, Sikhs, Muslims, etc. in Heaven – there are only ex-Buddhists, ex-Lutherans, ex-Sikhs, ex-Muslims in Heaven because no one in Heaven is invincibly ignorant of the truth.

 

[Genesis315]

there are only ex-Buddhists, ex-Lutherans, ex-Sikhs, ex-Muslims in Heaven

That’s a great way to put it.